In article <7mLkf.277853$>, Elizabeth
wrote:
Max ..
Thanks — sincerely — for the reply; rather than another point-by-point, I’m just gonna top-post a few (hopefully brief) reply comments ..
First of all, one way or the other, apparently I attributed some comments of others to you … unintended … it’s gotten to be a bit of a long thread (127 messages with this subject actually) so I probably began responding "globally" to some extent even though addressing you at the outset
PLEASE accept my apology . . . I really wasn’t trying to offend you! I actually thought I was "helping" (yeah, I admit . . . I’m actually about as helpful when it comes to interpersonal relationships as I am at fixing my car or designing a rocket for NASA . . . I don’t "do" people, I’m a Mac Geek — give me a computer over a person anyday and I’m a happy camper!)
Perhaps I should — but don’t — think there’s anything at all unusual about a lawyer posting to graphic design group; many of my colleagues and friends have multiple interests, as apparently do yours … so, to me, if I say I’m a lawyer who fools around with PS, it’s no big deal … nor is getting involved in a thread of this sort … yeah, I’m busy … isn’t everyone these days ?
I think part of my bias comes from the fact that the typical stereotype of lawyers (or doctors, for that matter) is that of being too intellectual to be artistic – the whole right vs left side of the brain. See, you cited the law in one of your past posts to me . . . that’s not how my brain works. I could *never* remember all of that, much less convince anyone else that I had ever heard of it before. It literally made no sense to me. I honestly think with the left side of my brain . . . and what you do so clearly requires absolute right side superiority.
So I guess what I’m trying to say (though doing a horrible job of it) is that while I don’t think my profession is a "no-brainer" kind of gig, I think it takes more right-brain thinking to do what *you* do. Not saying one bit that you have no left brain ability . . . I’m just saying I would assume (yes, I know ass out of me) that left brain pursuits would be not as interesting to someone who so clearly has so much strength on the right side.
Okay, how about this (again, I’m about as eloquent as a 3rd grade dropout). . . I picture you, from reading your posts (and from my assumptions about your profession and what it took, intellectually and time-wise, to get you there), relaxing by critiquing the summation of some famous attorney. Or perhaps completing the NY Times crosswords in *pen* in five minutes and shaking your head at yourself, *knowing* you could have done better. Because of your intellect and the type of brain you *must* have, I make that assumption.
So, that being said, yes, I do find it strange, in a way, that you would find PS relaxing. Why? Because it’s relaxing to me, and you see, I *don’t* have the same kind of brain you have. So to me, someone like you wouldn’t find that relaxing . . . you’d look at PS and say "Why would I want to do that? What would be the point?" and then get back to the latest issue of Mensa (yeah, I know that Mensa’s not all it’s cracked up to be, but it was all I could thinl of that was brainy).
BUT that being said, too, I *could* see you being an artist as well. With all the stress that *does* come from a profession such as yours, I can easily see you needing to express yourself with art. It’s creative, helps you solve problems otherwise unrelated, and is a way of venting, so to speak. It’s completely different from what you do on a day to day basis, so I can see how it would help you unwind and be something other than "just" a lawyer, wife (?), mother (?), woman. I often read true crime novels for that very reason. For those few hours, I am not pigeon-holed into what I am otherwise in my life. (not sure if all that made sense — I understand what I’m trying to say, but don’t know if I’m getting across)
That’s why I like to open up PS when I have a chance and do something for the soul .. not involving advocacy. But that post, and the response to it, just grabbed me .. and I want to try to tell you why. I’m sure you’re quite well aware that people do a LOT of complaining about lawyers … we cost too much, we’re nitpicky, cantankerous, caustic, blah blah blah. A lot of that’s true, some of it being an occupational hazard.
I really don’t think that way . . . first off, I think you all *are* expensive . . . but so are doctors. It’s a fact that we couldn’t live without doctors or lawyers. And considering how intellect and time-intensive both professions are, I think the fees are worth it. How hard did you have to work to get through law school? How many hours did you sacrifice for furthering your study (when you could have spent those hours doing "fun stuff" or just relaxing?)?
When you factor in all the time that you’ve spent preparing and studying for your profession, don’t you think that you deserve a commiserate fee?! I sure as hell do. If I hire a lawyer, I expect them to be able to speak for me . . . and I expect to pay for such. Too, I think most people want a high-priced lawyer . . . you don’t look for a bargain basment doctor to operate on your loved one, do you? A lawyer isn’t going to operate on a loved one, obviously, but a lawyer can keep your butt out of jail, or from having a judgement posed against you. Having a lawyer can mean the difference between life and death, freedom and imprisionment, wealth and bankruptcy. Having to pay a lawyer a higher fee kind of makes you feel better about your chances of winning. The higher the fee = (in most minds) the better the counsel. Though I’ve known many who work pro bono for many, long, hours because they believe in the truth and in their clients (like my friend).
And quite honestly, I’ve known many lawyers . . . and I’ve never known any that fit that stereotype one bit. But if you were, as a group, caustic and cantankerous, could we *really* blame you?? No., we couldn’t. How many times a day does someone try to put something past you? How many times a day are you lied to by, often, the very people who you’re trying to help? How hard do you have to work to get at the truth?
How many times a week are you handicapped by the "system?" By rules and rulings that really make no sense in a practical world? How many times do you see those who should have won, based on the evidence, but don’t because of the opposition’s deep pockets? Honestly? I’d be pissed and bitter after a few of those kinds of experiences. And, getting back to $$ — we pay you higher fees so *we* don’t have to deal with that stress. Personally, I think we get off easy as a whole. I’d much rather pay big bucks for you to do your magic and fight the system (or circumvent it where necessary for the "good guys"). Cause I’d be screwed if *I* had to do it.
But I was stunned to be in a group of creatives, and here’s an offer of $100 to do "a simple graphic" and I don’t see a single taker ! What I do see is a lot of all-too-familiar "stuff" about copyrights, contracts, business practices, and so on. It’s a $100 deal for God’s sake ! You can say, "nah ..," "NAH !," "thanks but no thanks" or how about even, "dude, my stuff is
at www.something.com … have a look and let me know if you wanna talk … I’m willing to give you 45 minutes if you can give me a pretty good idea of what you want in a hurry." I know very well that there are a lot of people doing this kind of work for $40-50 per hour so, in broad terms, if it’s really a simple graphic, a competent pro can "do ok" on the proposition. But nobody seems to want to touch it ! I’m astounded.
So, I HAD to step into the fray on this … and make some kind of attempt to suggest that, yes, it’s possible for two parties to do a little business without a ton of formalities and without the assistance of one of us prickly and expensive IP lawyers. Maybe you say, "look, $100 doesn’t fly but make it $200, not a work for hire, and you can post it on your web site [+ this, that, – that, this] … deal ?" Even if you don’t cut a great deal, what’s the likelihood of this becoming a blockbuster that earns the guy who commissioned it millions ?
Ugh *roll eyes*, you’re touching on a sore subject, there, with copyright issues. Who knows why? For some, I’m sure that they believe they’re soooo talented and soooo good that they don’t want anyone else to steal their perfect masterpiece. For some it might be that they are afraid that someone might abuse or mistreat their "child" by slapping a different color scheme to it, poor font choice, etc. And for a few others it might be that they’ve been burned by clients in the past and are "jaded" by that experience. So taking that $100 job doesn’t mean netting $100 when you consider the stress some night have of worrying about getting rooked/not paid, having your "baby" mistreated or what have you.
Too, when you consider the time you spend getting the specs, drafting concepts, and then making revisions, it puts $100 into perspective, so to speak. I mean, there *are*, I’m sure, some who feel that way. What’s specced as a two hour job is rarely just that. Usually you have to consider time spent in meetings/communicating in addition to the actual design work.
<And, I’ve learned, that typically a job that the client states is "simple" is rarely ever so. >
Too, although slim, there *is* always the slightest chance that that one "simple graphic" we do for a few bucks might end up a cash cow for the client. I think that paranoid greed is what keeps us from taking many jobs.
Too, I’ve always been told by my mentors that artists are a notoriously insecure lot. We’re either afraid that we’re not good enough (if we compare ourselves to those at the ad agencies working for NIKE) or that we’re too good and not being recognized (or paid enough) for it.
Take a look at in-house artists vs out-of-house designers . . . you have the in-house designers upset that an outsider is designing such and such, and alternatively you have the outsider upset because they know that they have no real "comittment" on the job. The in-house AD can fire them/end the project on a whim. So you have two groups that *should* be playing nice with each other that’s actually at each other’s throats.
But on the subject of copyright, I don’t get too concerned about it for the most part . . . I figure (incorrectly?) that there have got to be nearly (if not more) a million designers in the world — with that number in mind, assuming that they’re all producing art, what are the chances that the awesome piece you created today wasn’t similarly created by someone else the day before? Too, art is continually being recycled . . . there are "new" designs being created and new movments being started, but most mainstream design is based on classic designs.
Too, if I have a client who makes millions off my design, good for them. No . . . really. That’s what I’m here for. My job is to make *them* look good. And frankly, I don’t think just a design is going to make or break their business. Their business, product, and ethics will do that. My logo design is just an enhancement, so to speak.
Furthermore, how many products have you bought *solely* because you liked the logo? Let’s take a car – – would you buy a crappy death machine on wheels if the company had a cool logo? No, you wouldn’t. How many products have you bought *despite* the logo? Probably quite a few. I know I have . . . So here’s a question: how could a designer prove that his logo helped make the company it’s millions? I don’t think he could, really. So in the end, I really think it’s the business that should reap the rewards of it’s labor, not the designer who created it’s logo.
Now on illustrations, I make sure to have clearly outlined copyrights – an illustration for a book, I think, can make or break the book to an extent. I’ve had illustrations made into jewelry (that did quite well on the market) so I expected to be compensated for it and the copyright. The esthetic quality of the jewelry – the selling point – *was* of my creation. Too, I’ve done posters – again, I had copyright contracts drawn up. Again, the illustration is an intregal part of why it sells – *my* creation. But logos? No, they should be the property of the client. Besides, how would a logo for a tennis shoe help me? I’m not selling shoes . . . as long as I can have it in my portfolio to get more projects and further my company’s interests, I’m happy.
Sometimes I’m afraid we’re all not really talking to one another in authentic human terms anymore… it’s all come down to a series of interwoven technocratic scripts … and I see a LOT of this in the world of NGs … and I can’t really think it’s a great thing going on. I have not figured out WHY it happens and whether there’s anything to be done about it, but I believe you when you say groups like this are a necessity .. this is where you learn things, solve problems, make contacts, etc. btw, it’s the same kind of thing in legal NGs … some good things happen but there is far too much bickering, flaming, back-biting and so on …
Well, I’m not going to touch that . . . *rolls eyes* I’ll bet you’ve seen my posts to Hatter. So, I can’t talk one bit. I didn’t just toe the line of good taste and decent upbringing, I think I peed all over it. *shudder* But for the most part, I’m a mice person — or at least I try to be. I don’t criticize other’s work, sites, religious creeds, etc. If I post, I try to post to share or help or just plain ask questions. But I *DID* go overboard with hatter. And I *AM* embarassed about that. Will that stop me next time he ticks me off? Probably not. He’s great for venting! ( :
But for the most part, everyone here is wonderful (there are exceptions – Hatter obviously . . . and now, me, right?). NotMe is amazing – I really respect him and Inez (iesmith) is one of the sweetest and most intelligent people I’ve met here, Amgine is very clever, and so is Lorem Ipsum- just to name a few . . , in other words, I don’t know how long you’ve been here, but I already know you fit in just fine. ( :
Well, I said "brief comments" … and I’m well past that … re your complaint: I scarcely intended to suggest that I have more PS or design skill than you; without even knowing what your skill level is, that’s a laughable notion. I was just throwing into the mix one little thing I think I know, which is that on a computer screen the only currency that matters is pixels. I hear you; if you get a 90×60 image … whatever the PPI … it’s not likely to look like much printed out at 30" x 20" … there’s just not enough visual information and that’s that. If I was gruff, abrasive, or both, I apologize.
Okay, a little soul-baring here . . . I think I was on the defensive (think? did I say "think?" I’m pretty sure I meant "definitely was") in both areas because of your previous posts (not to me — to the group in general) . . . I have to tell you — you lost me early on in the thread. You were quite intimidating. Not in a mean or offensive way, but intellectually. I definitely felt out of my league, so I got snippy and was more in-tuned to looking for insult where there was none. If you’re being a jerk, I can say to myself "yeah, she’s brilliant, but she’s a jerk" and I don’t feel so inferior, so to speak. So I can totally see myself "inventing" your insults because it will make me feel better about my intelligence (or lack thereof).
And again, I’m very sorry about that. It’s not your fault that you’re bloody brilliant! ( : And thank God there’s someone like you to counteract the women we see on the screen . . . brilliant vs vapid, passionate vs spazzy, crusader vs don’t-give-a-shit.
<that may not have come out the way I’m hoping it will, but hopefully, you get the sentiment>
With that, I will stop my rambling and let those of you still listening return to the hornet’s nest 😉
Actually, I’d like to hear more from you — that is, if I haven’t totally bored you or been too much of a jerk! ( :
For one thing, how in the world did you ever get into PS? What do you do with it/in it? When did you first start? What do you like best about it? What do you hate? C’mon! Don’t make me use my pathetic interrogation skills . . . I know you’d beat me, hands down, but do you really want to see me make a fool out of myself? ( ;
Liz