Bert,
What you refer to with slowing down disk access can be overcome to a degree by defragmenting the hard disc. That I am aware of.
I was in the understanding that everything you save on the hard disc will be there for ever unless you run a special programme that competely purges the hard disc of any information.
I am willing to believe what you write, that ones and zeros are overwritten by the next allocation of disc space occupied but previously released by a "delete file"-command. Will this not happen once there is no more free space left and the computer has to scrounge for left over space? So that it will not happen untill the hard disc is nearly full?
Robert
Robert,
Once the sectors are released, they are available to be allocated to a new file. I do not know the algorithm used by the file management software to select sectors for a file, but as they are allocated and released repeatedly, the disk becomes fragmented, and periodic "defrags" are a good practice.
Other than that, I don’t think you need to worry about it. Bert
EDIT: If you doubt that the sectors are actually released do this experiment: Go to Properties for your C: drive and check the available used and free space. Then create a copy of a large file, any file. Check properties and note the changes in free and used space. Now delete the file and note the changes.
Bert,
I will follow up your advice on checking the availability of free space and the release of once occupied space.
Will keep you posted.
Robert
In message , Schraven Robert
writes
Bert,
What you refer to with slowing down disk access can be overcome to a degree by defragmenting the hard disc. That I am aware of.
I was in the understanding that everything you save on the hard disc will be there for ever unless you run a special programme that competely purges the hard disc of any information.
I am willing to believe what you write, that ones and zeros are overwritten by the next allocation of disc space occupied but previously released by a "delete file"-command. Will this not happen once there is no more free space left and the computer has to scrounge for left over space? So that it will not happen untill the hard disc is nearly full?
When the released space gets used again depends on the software that controls the disk drive and how it decides on where to put new data.
Some ‘old data’ may be written over straight away, other may languish on the disk for ages.
Because of this it is possible to extract all sorts of info from a disk even many years after it was ‘deleted’
It terms of day to day operation this doesn’t matter (this issue with fragmentation excepted) the only reason to worry about this is if the data was ‘sensitive’ in some way – that is why you can get programs to ‘shred’ the data on the disk
—
Chris French
Chris and Rod,
Although I now know that information will be overwritten at some stage I prefer to develop a solution where data gets saved with out going through the hard disc. At the rate I am currently making, saving, adapting and copying (some in TIFF!!) pictures I will have my 40 gig disc full in no time and that is what I want to avoid.
I am inclined to follow Rod’s solution where in fact he works his pictures on an external drive thus preventing fragmentation on his internal hard disc.
Robert
Bert,
I am aware of defragmentation. Up till now I have not used it often. Maybe twice per year as sofar I did not use the hard disc that intensely (not shifting large files about) that I had to defrag more often.
May be it is as with calibrating the monitor (see thread elsewhere). I just did that for the first time a few days ago, with astonishing result I must admit, where as others seem to be doing that nearly every week.
Bert, you may have gathered that I opt to use both your advice and Rod’s.
Robert
Robert,
Whatever you decide to do, you should be commended for THINKING about what you are doing with your computer. Many people just use it…rather blindly, I suppose, and then when things go wrong, they haven’t a clue why.
You are trying to use your machine intelligently and to understand the processes involved. Bravo for you!
Bert
Bert,
Thank you for the flowers, but I think that it is this forum that allows you to ask questions to which decent and convincing answers are given.
One simply must take advantage of so much knowledge and experience.
Robert
One simply must take advantage of so much knowledge and experience.
I couldn’t agree more. I came here a rank beginner about a year ago, asked some really DUMB questions, and was treated with courtesy and even kindness. This is the BEST of the Adobe forums, maybe the best UTU forum around.
Stick around and you will learn a LOT!
Bert
Rod,
I have the same experience regarding defragging the hard disc. Once executed, the programmes should work more smoothly and faster. Since I don’t defrag that often I do notice that. However not to an extent that I am well impressed by it. (This may be because up untill a few months ago I had an old windows 98 system that crashed so often over the years that the effect of defragging must have gone under. Did not yet defrag the new system!).
However if Bert is right and with defragging you can als get rid of some of the deleted files then I will do it more regularly.
I have a custom designed system. Nothing special, except maybe that it has built in two hard discs. One is purely for saving soft ware and the other one is for saving files I create myself, including the PE picture files.
Since this system works so much better than the old one, I started to get into digital photography, something I postponed because of my poor computer system. Hence all these delayed questions regarding soft ware etc.
I decided that I will investigate with my hard ware supplier an external harddisc for saving the PE software and pictures onto. So that the other hard disc will be freed up for all other files like word documents etc.
I am looking forward to the fact that now you can get 80 to 120 Gig hard discs, so I can muck about with the pictures to hearts’ content. I will have to get one that transfers the data via a USB connection.
I assume that scratch disc means a disc onto which you would save all versions and variations of a picture worked on by PE or similar?
Thank you all for your input.
Robert
Thanks Paul,
I think I have to digest your comments for a while.
Robert
Robert
At least I posted the cut-down version
🙂
Paul
Paul,
If for nothing else I now know what scratch disk is.
Combining your well meant but exhaustive explanation with Rod’s message (item #5) I now know where I can preset it.
I believe it is currently as per PE2 preference.
Would you advice on size relative to RAM or just on a pre-set number of say 100 Mb?
Robert
Robert,
However if Bert is right and with defragging you can als get rid of some of the deleted files then I will do it more regularly
I guess I wasn’t very clear. Defragging does nothing with deleted files. It just collects the scattered sectors for each EXISTING file and puts them in a contiguous space so that respositioning of the HD heads is minimized when reading the file. Repositioning takes time, and that is why defragging speeds disk access.
Bert
Bert,
It was me that misunderstood.
Your explanation was perfectly clear. Thank you for straightening me out.
Robert
Rod,
I am terribly ignorant about Macs. Do you have defragging procedures like we do on PCs? Just curious.
Bert
Hi, Bert. Yes, we do, but it’s not necessary for average users–not a part of regular maintenance the way it is on pcs. It’s only things like photoshop, or video, or audio apps that care about lots of contiguous disk space. I have a computer that I got in 1994 and it’s never been defragged in all that time, except for the defacto defragging that happened when I reformatted it a couple of times.
Barbara,
Thanks…I never defragged that often either until I started working with graphic files. Probably needed it, but if you’re only working with small files, the slowing would probably not be noticeable. I never notice that much difference after defragging anyway.
I just wondered if Mac operating systems had some automatic defrag function. Sounds like they don’t.
Hi Bert,
(This is all really off topic, but…)
The defragging programs that I am familiar with are just one of the functuions contained in some general repair/maintenance utilities. Under OS 9 I used (at various times) Norton Utilities, Techtool Pro, and Disk Warrior. Over the last few years under OS 9 I mainly used Disk Warrior (which does not contain a defragging program) and TechTool Pro. In fact, I wouldn’t have wanted to do without them.
So far under OS X I have not run into any problems that couldn’t be fixed with Apple’s Disk Utility that comes with OS X. However, Disk Warriuor just came out with their version for OS X and the OS X version of TechTool Pro is due soon. I bought Disk Warrior and have ordered Techtool Pro. I guess that they’re just sort of security blankets.
A lot of folks don’t bother much with these utilities – or even general maintenance stuff. However, over the years I have helped lots of Mac folks around here out of serious problems using these maintenance/repair utilkities. And, in the 15 years or so I’ve been using Macs I’ve only had one crash that I couldn’t recover from and had to reformat my hard drive. I really think that taking care of general maintenance tasks and repairing small problems as they happen helps avoid major problems.
Rod
Rod,
I really think that taking care of general maintenance tasks and repairing small problems as they happen helps avoid major problems.
I agree. Many people just use their computer "blindly" and expect it to keep on truckin’. Like driving a car and never checking (or changing) the oil.
Thanks for satisfying my curiosity about Mac utilities. I’ve been involved with computers since the late 60’s, was a programmer for the last 30 years of my career…up until about two years ago. I worked on hundreds of different machines, many long before the days of personal computers, and I’ve had a PC since they came out around twenty years ago. But I have rarely used a Mac!
Bert
In message , Bert Bigelow
writes
Rod,
I really think that taking care of general maintenance tasks and repairing
small problems as they happen helps avoid major problems.
I agree. Many people just use their computer "blindly" and expect it to keep on truckin’. Like driving a car and never checking (or changing) the oil.
What’s wrong with expecting something like a computer to be able to look after itself (‘hey my disk is a bit of mess time for a defrag tonight?’) I don’t have to do anything arcane like that to my TV, video, stereo etc.
Ten again I gave up defragging my HDD a long time ago, I can’t say I ever noticed any difference really anyway. (not entirely true I do defrag the partition I use for video editing)
And checking the oil?, ask around the office friends etc. see how many people check their oil that often – I reckon months pass between checks here – modern cars just don’t eat oil like older ones do. – I reckon it’s time that cars told me the oil needs checking anyway.
—
Chris French
Barbara,
I seem to recall being able to see how fragged my iMac is under Jaguar, and then de-fragging it. Then again, maybenot (on my first cup of coffee this morning after yet another horrid night’s sleep). What might I have used to de-frag Jag?
Edit: Related to a different thread of mine here on the Forum, my Plextor CD/RW drive is due to arrive today. I can hardly waiy…peace of mind! 🙂
Mornin’ Bert and Chris,
I really agree with you, Chris. I’m that way about cars – I just want to turn the key and have the darn thing go. And, I do think that things are moving in that direction. I do have to admit that I enjoy fooling around with computers.
Bert – When I was a kid about 50 years ago my dad worked for Univac. I remember going to an "open house" and looking at this huge computer filled with vacuum tubes that occupied most of a large room. I’m sure that it didn’t have the power of one of the current Palms.
I started using computers when our school got an Apple IIe. All I really used it for was as a word processor to prepare labs, tests, and so on for my classes. However, it was a BIG step up from those "ditto" machines!! (I remember spending hours at night writing out a lab and then having the "ditto" machine gobble it up the next morning.) When our oldest son went away to college in 1987 his room mates could never seem to pass along messages, so I figured that I had to learn how to use this "e-mail stuff". It’s all been uphill (downhill ?) from there.
Rod
Rod,
You must be almost as ancient as I am! <G>
My first "real" computer (not counting some hobbyist kluges) was an Apple 2+. I remember it fondly as the last machine that I could fix ANYTHING that failed. I worked for the Semiconductor Device Division of Rockwell at the time and we supplied Apple with the 6502 microprocessors in the early Apples.
I wrote assembly language code for the 6502 for ten years, and had a source listing for the Apple operating system.
When the IBM PC’s came out, I bought one, and that was the end of that. Hardware and software were an order of magnitude more complicated, and there was no way I was going to have the same level of knowledge of that machine.
I miss that.
Bert
