Richard, it’s really up to you how you want to do it. Elements has all sorts of ways to enhance images with filters and colored masks etc…..really, there is no ‘ending’ point to what Elements can achieve. Some photographers prefer fiddling with filters while shooting while others find comfort in image editors…totally up to you but YES Elements can do it….whether straight from the box or with the hundreds of freebie plug-ins available. No limits.
If you are shooting B&W film, you will have to use filters. You won’t be able to recover what isn’t in the negative.
However, if you will be shooting colour negs or trannies, the colour information will be in the film and you will be able to manipulate your images in Photoshop.
Leen
www.fotografieleenkoper.nl
Leen, are you saying that the camera filters add something to the black-and-white picture that can’t be simulated in post processing? I guess that would be the case if the filters somehow allowed the capture of detail that might otherwise be lost? Filters basically block certain wavelengths of light, so by blocking some you would avoid ‘blowing out’ what might otherwise go to white or bring up what might go to black?
I’m over my head on this topic….again.
🙂
Chuck, using B&W film a red filter makes the blue in the sky darker. I you don’t use a filter, you cannot reproduce this effect in PS as there is no colour information in the film.
The same applies to any other B&W filter. What isn’t in the negative cannot be scanned. As the information of the colour isn’t in a B&W film, you will be missing this grey scale information as a result of filtering colour to B&W.
(I know this sentence is a little strange, but I dont know how to describe it in a better way.)
Leen
Leen, that makes sense; thanks for the clarification. About all you could do in Elements is select the blown-out sky and fill it with gray of a suitable tone, but that would be considerable work. Is it the red filter that gives you the dramatically dark sky?
Chuck, each filter makes its own colour lighter and the complementary colour darker. In landscape photography it is almost a rule to have a yellow or green filter attached to the lens. Just only this way the film will render a sky with clouds the way we think we see it. Personally I prefer a green filter as in my opinion foliage should be lighter than we usually see in unfiltered images.
A nice way to learn the effects is to use the various filters of Filtersim ( <
http://www.mediachance.com/digicam/filtersim.htm> ) on a landscape image. This will give you a nice insight of what these filters do and this way you will be able to predict the outcome of what you might do in PS.
Leen
Richard, this question reminded me of a German colleague I met about 1 1/2 year ago at the Photokina trade fair in Cologne.
He, a B&W art photographer, told me he shot his images on medium format slide film, because of the extremely fine grain, had a high resolution scan made from the selected images and converted these images to B&W in Photoshop. At this stage he filtered his images like he did before with a 4×5" camera. He converted his image to negative and printed on transparent film which he used to produce contact prints on traditional fibre based photographic paper. He claimed he was able to produce the same quality or better images than he obtained before with his large field camera!
This way he could produce more images at lower costs and with less back problems than ever before. He had reduced the weight he had to to carry by over 50%, didnot have to process his films any more, could take many more shots per day and moreover, due to contact printing, he was absolutely sure each print would be exactly the same. Dodging and burning was easier than ever before. He claimed his production had increased considerably and so did his income.
His only problem was B&W film could cover a larger contrast, but now, on sunny days he did his enhancing and printing and overcast days were dedicated to photography.
Unfortunately I lost his card, so I have never seen the results, but as he was making a living out of it by selling his images in art galleries I suppose he knew what he was talking about. He sounded pretty convincing too.
Leen
Don, thanks for reminding me of Ansel Adam’s book(s). I have the series, but it’s been decades since I thumbed through them. Time to get them off the shelf and learn from the master!
Chuck
I asked a similar question awhile back and, like you, got helpful answers. After researching various plug-ins and workarounds, I’ve concluded that if you want the look offered by filters when using B&W film then you should stick to using filters. I’m no expert on this, but none of the filter simulation techniques I looked at were directly comparable to taking a picture using B&W filters.
The suggestion that you cannot duplicate the effects of B&W filters using a B&W image has me puzzled. Though B&W filters admittedly work by selectively blocking colors, the resulting effect is a heghtened or lessened contrast. Is it not possible to digitally alter contrast directly in a B&W image to achieve the same result?
However, the technique of digitally manipulating color photos and then converting these to B&W is an interesting idea. I have no experience with this other than playing around a little, but I’ve read several articles that suggest you can get better B&W results this way when compared to starting with a B&W image. I assume it’s possible to replicate B&W filter effects in a color image. For example, reducing the blue and green in a cloudy sky should result in higher contrast between sky and clouds when the image is converted to B&W, just what a red filter does when using B&W film.
I’ve used B&W filters for years and have no particular desire to change. I use the Cokin Pro series of filters which are easy to use and relatively inexpensive to replace when broken or damaged. With TTL metering, using filters is almost foolproof.
I understand that the Windows-based image editor Picture Windows permits direct digital filtering based on the Wrattan numbering system. Now that’s something I could get excited about.
An excellent discussion of B&W filters and filtering techniques is found in Ansel Adams’s The Negative.
Don
Leen,
The channel mixer is in Elements, Adobe just didn’t provide an interface so you could get to it. I believe it’s there so Elements can correctly interpret Photoshop files that contain channel mixer adjustment layers.
The free Hidden Powers Actions (HPA III) provides an action whereby you can access the channel mixer and create an adjustment layer. You just can’t edit the channel mixer adjustment layer after you create it. If you need to tweak it afterwards, you need to either delete and recreate it or add a second adjustment layer.
You can get HPA III from the Adobe Studio Exchange or from the Hidden Powers Website (
http://www.hiddenelements.com).
Bob
Don, one can do exactly the same things in Photoshop -unfortunately not in Elements as you will need the channel mixer- as with filters. Even better, as a glass filter always adds a reflective surface to the lens.
Besides, in my previous posting I mentioned the FilterSim software. This software uses the Wratten numbers.
Leen
Leen, you’re correct about FilterSim. I’d forgotten about it as, unfortunately, it’s Windows-only software. I’m a Mac guy.
I still wonder about the actual need for color information to simulate B&W contrast filters. I understand that selective transmission of colors is how glass filters work to enhance contrast. But why do digital "filters" have to operate the same way? In other words, if enhanced contrast is the effect, can we supply a color-independent digital cause?
I’m parading my ignorance here, but I assume that the effects produced by PSE or any other digital photo manipulation software are simply the result of algorithms applied to the values (color or grey scale) stored for each pixel. Altering the photo in a predetermined way (changing color, deepening saturation, and so forth) is the result of mathematically changing pixel values according to the particular equation designed to create the effect.
I would think that a "red filter" algorithm (or any other color), exists that could be applied to a B&W image, but maybe I’m wrong. Anyone out there with more knowledge of this topic than I have, please chime in.
Don
Don,
It’s not just an issue of contrast. You are also changing tonal relationships.
Imagine you are taking a photo with your traditional film based camera using b&w film but no filters. Because of the spectral sensitivity of the film and the differing relative amounts of red, green, and blue in the colors of the objects you photographed, it’s quite possible for two differently colored objects to have exactly the same density in the negative and they will print the exact same shade of gray. Now place a filter on the lens. The filter will transmit some colors well and block other colors. Now, the objects that recorded as the same density before record with different densities and will print with different shades of gray — you’ve changed the tonal relationships.
When you’re working with a single b&w image, you have no color history information — only shades of gray. There is no way for you to know what particular mix of colors produced any specific shade of gray, and in fact, the same shade of gray could have been produced by many different colors. To simulate a filter, you would need to know precisely what amounts red, green, and blue were present in the original photo for each pixel and adjust the resulting density accordingly. That information is just not there in a b&w image.
You can change the contrast of the b&w image by expanding or compressing the range of tones in the photo but that’s not the same as changing the tonal relationships by making a specific shade of gray lighter in one part of a photo and darker in another. There is no way for any algorithm to do that without knowledge of the original colors.
I hope this helps,
Bob
I think it is pretty difficult to apply a red filter algorithm to an image without any colour information.
Leen
This is an extremely interesting discussion. Leen, I purposely labeled the "red filter" algorithm with quotes because I was looking for a red filter effect but one that was derived digitally (i.e., mathematically). My assumption was that contrast alone could be enhanced digitally without color information being supplied. Which happens to be the case (e.g., by adjusting levels).
However, Bob makes the point that B&W filters influence more than contrast alone (which I didn’t know). His argument suggests that color information is absolutely necessary and that a digital analog of a B&W filter must accomplish electronically what filters do optically.
I learned something and appreciate everyone’s patience.
Don
John, that’s an "AHA!" for me – good explanation! Thanks!!
Don, I think you’ve got it, now. Here is my ‘simplistic’ explanation. Even though you are shooting B&W film, colour filters are acting upon the ‘colour’ of light within a scene. So a red filter makes the blue sky darker (by blocking blue light and underexposing), and a red rose lighter (by passing through red light more easily and thus overexposing), when exposed onto B&W film.
If you start with a colour digital image (original, or scanned from colour film) then a digital colour filter can work the same way. If you start with a B&W digital image (original, or scanned from B&W film), then there is no colour information for a colour filter to block or pass through. The digital red filter, for example, cannot possibly know what is blue sky and what is red rose.
John, thank you. That was exactly what I was trying to explain. You hit the right nail on the head.
In Dutch I would have been able to explain it in exactly the same way, but in another language there is always a barrier.
Leen
Leen, you do exceptionally well with English. But I often have to take the more scientific or technical explanantion of something and simplify it for myself, just so I can remember it. Years ago, every lens I owned had a medium yellow filter on it, and I had a few orange and green ones too.
In lieu of the Channel mixer you can get effects similar to filters using Russel Brown’s method of using two Hue/Sat adjustment layers for converting from Color RGB to Black and White. But if you are shooting with Black and White film, Leen is right that you need to use filters to get the true effect.
Rich
Hello to all,
Thanks to everyone that replied with information regarding my question.
I have ordered the appropriate filters to cover my new 6X6 camera lenses.
I do have a follow up for clarification on this topic: If I begin using color negatives or slides (without using filters) they would capture the needed "information" for PE2 to manipulate after converting to a b&w for final printing. Is that correct?
thanks again to all,
richard
Yes indeed; there is no difference between files from a scanned colour negative or positive and images taken with a digital camera.
Leen
They both have x by x number of pixels.
But the same scene from scanned film and digicam, even at same rez with original pixels, can have remarkably different look.
Mac
