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Opening a dng file

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Tue, 08 November 2011 00:42

Kele (Photoshop begginer)

Irfanview
both listed http://www.irfanview.com/plugins.htm

"RDOC" <rdoc2@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:6b32c5d0-8a0a-4085-b75f-afdedc1bcdf3@n18g2000vbv.googlegroups.com...
> Is there a free software program or a viewer that will open a dng file
> or a nef file? Thanks

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Tue, 08 November 2011 02:26

Savageduck (Photoshop expert)

On 2011-11-07 18:56:52 -0800, tony cooper <tony.cooper214@gmail.com> said:

> On Mon, 7 Nov 2011 17:56:12 -0800, Savageduck
> <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2011-11-07 15:41:57 -0800, John J Stafford <john@stafford.invalid> said:
>>
>>> In article <2011110713555727544-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Remember, the RAW files are not directly editable. If you make changes
>>>> to the RAW file (or DNG for that matter) in ACR, you can go back into
>>>> Bridge and apply those adjustments to a batch of files
>>>
>>> Just asking you, Savageduck, but are you aware of the DNG that can save
>>> the changes you make on it, thus the possibly of reverting the original?
>>
>> From everything I know of DNG edits made to the DNG, of NEF or any
>> other RAW file are only recorded as XMP "sidecar" files. The actual DNG
>> is not altered.
>
> Well, it is, kinda. A whole bunch of adjustments can be made to the
> DNG file. Close that file, and re-open it later, and the adjustments
> you made are still in place. But - and here's where the "kinda" comes
> in - you can change all those adjustments back to where they were
> before you did anything or to any other settings. The basic RAW file
> isn't changed but what you see of the file is changed.

....and that is the point, the RAW files remain unaltered regardless of
what you might do to them in ACR or Lightroom. This is the key to
non-destructive editing in LR and ACR. Only the XMP is changed (that
is in effect an instruction set recording the adjustments).
>
>
>> In order to edit a DNG in Photoshop "RAW conversion" has to take place
>> first, for Adobe this is done with ACR which reads and processes the
>> RAW sensor data, and the EXIF and other metadata from the camera. After
>> ACR adjustments are made and you click on the "Open Image" button, the
>> ACR adjusted file will be converted to an editable output format,
>> usually TIFF.
>
> No, it's not usually a TIF. The format must be designated. You can
> designate it to be a jpg, a TIF, a PSD, or one of several other
> formats. It will save as a jpg if there is only the single layer, and
> save as a PSD if there are multiple layers. I can't remember saving
> as a TIF. All my files are DNGs, jpgs, or PSDs.

Agreed, I never save as TIF, and I also use DNG, PSD, and JPEG. However
even though you might not see it, TIF is what you are going to be
working with when any RAW or DNG file is converted in ACR to open in
CSx.
The "save" dialog is where you make your decision on format. If your
work flow is in 16-bit you will only be able to save TIF or PSD.
JPEG's can only be saved as copies or must be converted to 8-Bit before
saving.

Usually when a DNG file is converted editing in ACR and then converted
to open in CSx, or if you make the initial adjustments to the DNG in LR
and export to CSx for other editing the final saved file will either be
saved as a PSD or a TIF if you are going to maintain the 16-bit mode.

Both DNG and PSD are subsets of TIF and for the conversion to an
editable format Adobe will take the road of least resistance and
default to TIF.

I know you use Lightroom quite a lot. Try this, in the LR "develop"
module select a DNG and select "Edit in Photoshop CSx" by right
clicking on the thumbnail and making the selection from the dropdown
menu. The DNG will open in CSx perform whatever Photoshop edits you
need to and then just "Save" the file. It will be re-imported as either
a TIF or PSD depending on your particular setup. The advantage to using
PSD is being able to save un-merged layers. The saved file should now
show in LR with a name which looks something like this DSC1234-Edit.tif
or DSC1234-Edit.psd.

>
>> So to answer your question; No, saving an adjusted DNG or any other RAW
>> file, or to reverse engineer and/or overwrite the original DNG is not
>> possible.
>>
> ? The adjusted DNG will re-open with the same adjustments made.

What you are saying is true for edits made to DNG files in Lightroom,
or recorded to NEF or DNG in ACR - and not opened in CSx by clicking on
the ACR "Done" button. The DNG will always remain unaltered, the
adjustments are recorded in the "sidecar" XMP files.
I am usually able to find the associated XMP along side the DNG file.
One of my folders can look something like this:
< http://homepage.mac.com/lco/filechute/screenshot_07.jpg >

When you reopen the DNG or other RAW file the adjustments made in ACR
or Light room will reopen with the adjustments recorded in the XMP
file. The DNG, or other RAW file remains unmolested and pristine.

--
Regards,

Savageduck

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Tue, 08 November 2011 03:41

nomail (Photoshop expert)

Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>
> What you are saying is true for edits made to DNG files in Lightroom, or
> recorded to NEF or DNG in ACR - and not opened in CSx by clicking on the
> ACR "Done" button. The DNG will always remain unaltered, the adjustments
> are recorded in the "sidecar" XMP files.

No, DNG does not have sidecar files. That is what makes DNG different from
other RAW formats. The adjustments are stored in the EXIF data inside the
DNG file itself.

--
Johan W. Elzenga, Editor/Photographer, www.johanfoto.com

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Tue, 08 November 2011 08:33

Ulysses (Photoshop expert)

> ...and there is nothing wrong with that methodology, except I am sure you
> biggest concern is probably COMPOSITION rather than "composure", unless
> you are more concerned with the mental state of your images. ;-)
>
my error. I meant composition. body and brain geting old
thanks for all your comments

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Tue, 08 November 2011 11:02

John J Stafford (Advanced Photoshop user)

In article <2011110717561237709-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> [...]

Thanks very much for the great information. I owe you one.

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Tue, 08 November 2011 11:04

John J Stafford (Advanced Photoshop user)

In article <j9aar9$ski$1@dont-email.me>, Jonz <no.one@ishome.com>
wrote:

> On 11/7/2011 5:56 PM, Savageduck wrote:
> > On 2011-11-07 15:41:57 -0800, John J Stafford <john@stafford.invalid> said:
> >
> >> In article <2011110713555727544-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> >> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Remember, the RAW files are not directly editable. If you make changes
> >>> to the RAW file (or DNG for that matter) in ACR, you can go back into
> >>> Bridge and apply those adjustments to a batch of files
> >>
> >> Just asking you, Savageduck, but are you aware of the DNG that can save
> >> the changes you make on it, thus the possibly of reverting the original?
> >
> > From everything I know of DNG edits made to the DNG, of NEF or any
> > other RAW file are only recorded as XMP "sidecar" files. The actual DNG
> > is not altered.
>
> Yes and No. Yes, the actual RAW data inside the DNG is not altered. No,
> the DNG does not require a sidecar file, the edits are stored as
> metadata inside the DNG file. Therefore, all edits made to a DNG file
> using ACR can be reversed.
>
> Jonz

I'm getting confused. Can you recommend a good book or other doc that
might help me master this subject?

Thanks,
John

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Tue, 08 November 2011 16:20

Jonz[1] (Photoshop begginer)

On 11/8/2011 8:04 AM, John J Stafford wrote:
> In article<j9aar9$ski$1@dont-email.me>, Jonz<no.one@ishome.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 11/7/2011 5:56 PM, Savageduck wrote:
>>> On 2011-11-07 15:41:57 -0800, John J Stafford<john@stafford.invalid> said:
>>>
>>>> In article<2011110713555727544-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>>>> Savageduck<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Remember, the RAW files are not directly editable. If you make changes
>>>>> to the RAW file (or DNG for that matter) in ACR, you can go back into
>>>>> Bridge and apply those adjustments to a batch of files
>>>>
>>>> Just asking you, Savageduck, but are you aware of the DNG that can save
>>>> the changes you make on it, thus the possibly of reverting the original?
>>>
>>> From everything I know of DNG edits made to the DNG, of NEF or any
>>> other RAW file are only recorded as XMP "sidecar" files. The actual DNG
>>> is not altered.
>>
>> Yes and No. Yes, the actual RAW data inside the DNG is not altered. No,
>> the DNG does not require a sidecar file, the edits are stored as
>> metadata inside the DNG file. Therefore, all edits made to a DNG file
>> using ACR can be reversed.
>>
>> Jonz
>
> I'm getting confused. Can you recommend a good book or other doc that
> might help me master this subject?
>

A good book is a very subjective topic. My suggestion would be to use
Google. If you Google "raw vs dng" you will come up with about a
gazillion hits. You could also try "acr tutorials" for another boatload
of hits.

I personally use Lightroom which is nothing but an organizer/librarian
program packaged with the ACR engine for image editing. Martin Evening
has a superior book for this environment which explains RAW, DNG, and
parametric image editing in the Lightroom environment.

Jonz

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Tue, 15 November 2011 22:22

ahall (Advanced Photoshop user)

"Ulysses" <ulysses@whatsthat.com> writes:

>>
>> DNG is a RAW data container which uses raw image data from an image
>> sensor, and is structured as a TIFF plus metadata. It is used as the RAW
>> data wrapper by several camera manufacturers such as Leica. In order to
>> have DNG used as a "digital negative" for archiving purposes and avoid the
>> ever changing generations of RAW by manufacturers such as Nikon and Canon,
>> Adobe has provided the DNG converter, which is a compact version of the
>> current ACR and a UI used solely for reading proprietary RAW wrappers such
>> as NEF, CR2, RAF, etc. and then converting them to DNG and saving them
>> complete with intact metadata.
>>
>> Original DNG's and DNG's created using Adobe's DNG Converter are standard
>> RAW sensor data wrappers and can only have that data read using RAW file
>> processing software such as ACR.
>>
>> Once opened in any photo editing software such as Photoshop, Lightroom,
>> Aperture, iPhoto, Preview, etc.
>> it is treated just the same as any RAW format and cannot be saved as as an
>> adjusted RAW file, only one of the 16-bit or 8-bit image file formats such
>> as TIFF, PSD, TGA, JPEG, PNG, etc.
>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Savageduck
>>
>>
> you are a super pro in photography and know your stuff
> I am not. i am a little guy who takes his canon eos camera
> out for the day and shoots nature, family, travel, etc, etc
> My biggest concern is the composure of the pic. if the pic is
> worthwhile, i will then take several pics of that object, and judge
> when back home then i load my JPG pics into photoshop.

If you shoot with a EOS DSLR you should really consider
shooting in raw. The conversion to JPG throws away a lot
of data that can be very useful.

> then crop, enhance, and save the file
> I do not want to spend the time with all this conversion crap
> most amateurs don't. photography and photoshop is my hobby
> I hope you see my point
> P.S. thought about starting a new newsgroup.
> calling it alt.graphics.photoshop.amateur
> it would enable us idiots to to share stories and problems,
> and include photography. but the group would be informal
> like a sit-down group and gab, swap stories
> what is your opinion ?? Carrie (and others) are you listening
> thanks for input on files

--
Andrew Hall
(Now reading Usenet in alt.graphics.photoshop...)

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Wed, 16 November 2011 17:22

Joel (Photoshop expert)

"Carrie" <starchild1124@charter.net> wrote:

>
> "Johan W. Elzenga" <nomail@please.invalid> wrote in message
> news:888538980342294061.763272nomail-please.invalid@news.supernews.com...
> > "Ulysses" <ulysses@whatsthat.com> wrote:
> >> "RDOC" <rdoc2@comcast.net> wrote in message
> >> news:6b32c5d0-8a0a-4085-b75f-afdedc1bcdf3@n18g2000vbv.googlegroups.com...
> >>> Is there a free software program or a viewer that will open a dng file
> >>> or a nef file? Thanks
> >>>
> >> Your question is like a guy in the desert with an electric car.
> >> you ask "where do I plug in?". anyone who uses weird photogaphy
> >> formats is asking for trouble. stick with common ones...JPG or RAW
> >
> > Actually, RAW is not a file format. Each manufacturer has its own format
> > for RAW data, and Nikon's happens to be NEF. Nothing weird about that. DNG
> > is a universal format for RAW data, by Adobe. Again, nothing weird about
> > that.
>
> So why don't DNG files open in Photoshop? (I think it said they would in
> CS5) I don't think I've ever had a DNG file. My Canon camera shoots in RAW
> that just opens in Photoshop.

Because Photoshop itself doesn't directly support any RAW format. And
during the RAW wars between all manufactures Adobe releases its own RAW
format hoping it will become the Univeral RAW format.

And others still have to release newer RAW format for each newer model,
and it seems like they can't use Adobe's DNG because it may not be free to
them. Or the RAW formats is still changing now and then not in final stage
yet.

Photoshop itself has to use ACR or LightRoom to open RAW formats
(inclusing DNG I think as I haven't tried DNG myself) as they are RAW
Converters

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Wed, 16 November 2011 17:32

Joel (Photoshop expert)

John J Stafford <john@stafford.invalid> wrote:

> In article <2011110713555727544-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>
> > Remember, the RAW files are not directly editable. If you make changes
> > to the RAW file (or DNG for that matter) in ACR, you can go back into
> > Bridge and apply those adjustments to a batch of files
>
> Just asking you, Savageduck, but are you aware of the DNG that can save
> the changes you make on it, thus the possibly of reverting the original?

*If* (I know it is) DNG is one of the many RAW formats then the change(s)
won't be saved to DNG file, but it will save to the additional file which
contains all the change.

Example, if the RAW file is "John J Stafford.DNG" then there will be
another file like (example) "John J Stafford.XXX" which contains all the
newer information.

*If* you DELETE or RENAME the "XXX" file then the DNG will return to its
very original stage.

And this is one of the reason why Photoshop itself should be able to open
and retouch DNG and other RAW formats but it won't. Because it can't store
all other changes (like Liquify, Style, Mask, Brush, Dodge/Burn, Magic Wand
etc.), it just not worth the trouble.

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Wed, 16 November 2011 17:47

John J Stafford (Advanced Photoshop user)

In article <h0e8c7d8fcjv1uq1g0g9a4kt6q1o9pn74f@4ax.com>,
Joel <Joel@NoSpam.com> wrote:

> John J Stafford <john@stafford.invalid> wrote:
>
> > In article <2011110713555727544-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
> > Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Remember, the RAW files are not directly editable. If you make changes
> > > to the RAW file (or DNG for that matter) in ACR, you can go back into
> > > Bridge and apply those adjustments to a batch of files
> >
> > Just asking you, Savageduck, but are you aware of the DNG that can save
> > the changes you make on it, thus the possibly of reverting the original?
>
> *If* (I know it is) DNG is one of the many RAW formats then the change(s)
> won't be saved to DNG file, but it will save to the additional file which
> contains all the change.
>
> Example, if the RAW file is "John J Stafford.DNG" then there will be
> another file like (example) "John J Stafford.XXX" which contains all the
> newer information.
>
> *If* you DELETE or RENAME the "XXX" file then the DNG will return to its
> very original stage.
>
> And this is one of the reason why Photoshop itself should be able to open
> and retouch DNG and other RAW formats but it won't. Because it can't store
> all other changes (like Liquify, Style, Mask, Brush, Dodge/Burn, Magic Wand
> etc.), it just not worth the trouble.
>

Thank you, Joel. I will now definitely learn-up now.

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Wed, 16 November 2011 17:49

Joel (Photoshop expert)

John J Stafford <john@stafford.invalid> wrote:

> > >> Just asking you, Savageduck, but are you aware of the DNG that can save
> > >> the changes you make on it, thus the possibly of reverting the original?
> > >
> > > From everything I know of DNG edits made to the DNG, of NEF or any
> > > other RAW file are only recorded as XMP "sidecar" files. The actual DNG
> > > is not altered.
> >
> > Yes and No. Yes, the actual RAW data inside the DNG is not altered. No,
> > the DNG does not require a sidecar file, the edits are stored as
> > metadata inside the DNG file. Therefore, all edits made to a DNG file
> > using ACR can be reversed.
> >
> > Jonz
>
> I'm getting confused. Can you recommend a good book or other doc that
> might help me master this subject?

You just need to make thing more simplier then you should understand.

- The RAW format will always remain 100% original. Nothing will touch
itself

- All the changes will be stored in an additional file (see other message).
I don't remember the exact filename, but lets make the "XMP" file from
Savageduck is the correct filename then he is right.

Now lets look at the whole thing this way. You know EXE or COM is the
*executable* extension for DOS and Windows, and Windows has DLL (Dynamic
Link Library) is an additional file for COM/EXE. DLL can't be operated all
by itself, but with COM/EXE it can communicate with the OS just like COM and
EXE do.

- And I would say you don't need to spent money on book *unless* you want to
write a book about RAW format yourself. I don't read book about RAW, I
don't read lot of information about RAW except when it first instroduced
many moons ago, and I read so many misleading info.

So, I just mess with the RAW and the additional file created on the RAW
file(s) I adjusted to come up with the good book myself. Here you can try

1. Copy dozen of RAW file to a specific folder

2. Messing around with one or few, then look at the folder again to see how
many additional file is created besides the original RAW

3. Studying the adjusted RAW (make it so wild so you won't mistake)

4. Delete the additional file (XMP for example), then look at the *wild* RAW
again, and it should return to the very original stage.

Then you should be able to figure out what the XMP doing in the folder
besides eating up more disk space.

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Thu, 17 November 2011 04:12

nomail (Photoshop expert)

Joel <Joel@NoSpam.com> wrote:
> John J Stafford <john@stafford.invalid> wrote:
>
>> In article <2011110713555727544-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom>,
>> Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Remember, the RAW files are not directly editable. If you make changes
>>> to the RAW file (or DNG for that matter) in ACR, you can go back into
>>> Bridge and apply those adjustments to a batch of files
>>
>> Just asking you, Savageduck, but are you aware of the DNG that can save
>> the changes you make on it, thus the possibly of reverting the original?
>
> *If* (I know it is) DNG is one of the many RAW formats then the change(s)
> won't be saved to DNG file, but it will save to the additional file which
> contains all the change.

No, that is not correct. DNG is an exception to this rule. In case of DNG
the changes ARE saved the DNG file, but not as edits of pixels. They are
saved as instructions in the EXIF data. The RAW data remain untouched, as
is the case with any other RAW file. With other RAW files the edit
instructions are indeed saved in a so-called 'sidecar file', but in case of
DNG the sidecar is merged into the EXIF data.

--
Johan W. Elzenga, Editor/Photographer, www.johanfoto.com

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