Spikes in histogram

BD
Posted By
Bobby Dogg
Sep 14, 2004
Views
717
Replies
11
Status
Closed
When I scan in with my Nikon IV I get a smooth histogram.

If I adjust Levels etc, "teeth" appear in the histogram with gaps and spikes. Does this matter for print quality using an Epson 890? I’ve read somehwere that spikes like this mean posteization. Is that right?

More importnat, is there any way I can flatten these spikes out after i’ve adjusted Levels and curves, so I get a better image but no posterization?

Many thanks

Bobby D

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B
bhilton665
Sep 15, 2004
From: "Bobby Dogg"

When I scan in with my Nikon IV I get a smooth histogram.
If I adjust Levels etc, "teeth" appear in the histogram with gaps and spikes. … is there any way I can flatten these spikes out after i’ve adjusted Levels and curves, so I get a better image but no posterization?

See if your scanner will save more than 8 bits/channel. If you can get 10 or 12 bits/channel (or 14, but I think this is an old scanner) you can work in 16 bit mode in Photoshop and avoid the gaps.

See if you can’t make these initial moves in the scanner software too. The software works at the highest bit mode possible for the scanner and then saves in 8 bit mode (if that’s what you choose to save in), so setting end points etc is more efficient in the scanner software IF it’s any good. Some of the older NikonScan software isn’t very good though.

Does this matter for print quality using an Epson 890?

Probably not, unless you are making a lot of major edits to the 8 bit files.

Here’s some background on the problem …

http://www.creativepro.com/story/feature/7627.html

Bill
NW
No Where Man
Sep 15, 2004
Spikes essentially mean the loss of data. Too many gaps and you can start to see posterization. One alternative is to use Adjustment Layers. On the Layers pallet, select Adjustment Layers, and then Levels.
B
bhilton665
Sep 15, 2004
From: "No Where Man"

Spikes essentially mean the loss of data. Too many gaps and you can start to see posterization. One alternative is to use Adjustment Layers.

Adjustment layers don’t help at all with this problem. They simply make it easier to re-work your changes if you change your mind. The problem is caused by using 8 bits/channel.
R
Rick
Sep 15, 2004
"No Where Man" wrote in
news:q1N1d.5745$:

Spikes essentially mean the loss of data. Too many gaps and you can start to see posterization. One alternative is to use Adjustment Layers. On the Layers pallet, select Adjustment Layers, and then Levels.
——=_NextPart_000_0008_01C49A89.9516C130 <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2180" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE>
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<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Spikes essentially mean the loss of data.&nbsp; Too many gaps and you can start to see
posterization.&nbsp; One alternative is to use Adjustment Layers.&nbsp; On the Layers pallet, select Adjustment Layers, and then Levels.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
——=_NextPart_000_0008_01C49A89.9516C130–
BD
Bobby Dogg
Sep 15, 2004
Bill

Many thanks for both the advice and the link. I will read this carefully tonight, after work!

BD

"Bill Hilton" wrote in message
From: "Bobby Dogg"

When I scan in with my Nikon IV I get a smooth histogram.
If I adjust Levels etc, "teeth" appear in the histogram with gaps and spikes. … is there any way I can flatten these spikes out after i’ve adjusted Levels and curves, so I get a better image but no posterization?

See if your scanner will save more than 8 bits/channel. If you can get 10 or
12 bits/channel (or 14, but I think this is an old scanner) you can work in 16
bit mode in Photoshop and avoid the gaps.

See if you can’t make these initial moves in the scanner software too. The
software works at the highest bit mode possible for the scanner and then saves
in 8 bit mode (if that’s what you choose to save in), so setting end points etc
is more efficient in the scanner software IF it’s any good. Some of the older
NikonScan software isn’t very good though.

Does this matter for print quality using an Epson 890?

Probably not, unless you are making a lot of major edits to the 8 bit files.

Here’s some background on the problem …

http://www.creativepro.com/story/feature/7627.html

Bill

J
Jim
Sep 15, 2004
The spikes are not so evident if you use a 16 bit image. Jim
"Bobby Dogg" wrote in message When I scan in with my Nikon IV I get a smooth histogram.

If I adjust Levels etc, "teeth" appear in the histogram with gaps and spikes. Does this matter for print quality using an Epson 890? I’ve read somehwere that spikes like this mean posteization. Is that right?

More importnat, is there any way I can flatten these spikes out after i’ve adjusted Levels and curves, so I get a better image but no posterization?

Many thanks

Bobby D
WF
Wayne Fulton
Sep 15, 2004
In article <41478064$0$20254$>,
says…

When I scan in with my Nikon IV I get a smooth histogram.
If I adjust Levels etc, "teeth" appear in the histogram with gaps and = spikes. Does this matter for print quality using an Epson 890? I’ve = read somehwere that spikes like this mean posteization. Is that right?
More importnat, is there any way I can flatten these spikes out after = i’ve adjusted Levels and curves, so I get a better image but no = posterization?

Why? The histogram gaps are normally not an issue, normally not visually perceivable in the image itself. We can only see this effect when viewing the histogram. These gaps and spikes are caused by adjusting (shifting) the tone values in 8 bit data with the Level, Curve, or Color Balance tools. When you shift the tone values, say those tones at value 200, up to now be value 202 (just to have a number), in some cases you might leave a gap at 200, only meaning there are no data values remaining with value 200 (no other values to be shifted to become 200). If there is a spike at 202, it just means the count combined with other tones already there, already with value 202. The histogram simply shows the count of pixels for each possible tone value. The only meaning of the gap is there are no pixels with tone value 200, and the only meaning of the spike is that perhaps there are double the number of pixels with tone value 202. Generally, thee main idea is that for full image contrast, we adjust so that the histogram data extends full range, from 0 to 255. There is no law that says the real scene image data must have values at every possible data value, and there is no law that says we must have an equal tonal distributions (the proverbial image of black cat in coal mine, or polar bear in snow storm, are certainly big exceptions to everything). The histogram pixel counts simply depend on the image content, and images differ from each other. More importantly, the human eye can barely distinguish values 200 from 202, so this gap/spike is certainly no big deal. You wanted to change the tone values, remember?

If this is perceived as a problem, the solution is that we can make such tonal changes (at least the drastic changes) in 16 bit data, so that the gaps/spikes are unseen. This means to output 16 bit data from scanner, change the tones in 16 bit data in Photoshop, then convert to 8 bit mode afterwards. Make no mistake, we still get the same gaps/spikes in 16 bit data, but we just cannot see those gaps/spikes when the 16 bit data is displayed in a 8 bit histogram display, or after the data is regrouped as 8 bit mode. Many of us do it this way, and for that reason, but there is no actual difference in results when viewing the image.

Otherwise, if ignored, in very worst case, the nit-pickers remind us that the gaps and spikes might possibly theoretically combine in an extreme way so that the most extreme cases of wide gaps might possibly might become visible in the image, seen as banding (posterization) in very wide smooth gradients (sky, walls, etc). But as a general practical case, it simply is not an issue. We look at the image, not the histogram.


Wayne
http://www.scantips.com "A few scanning tips"
BD
Bobby Dogg
Sep 15, 2004
Wayne

Thanks for taking the trouble to provde such a long and lucid explanantion

I’ll not lose too much sleep and go on with the correction methods i use.

Bobby D

"Wayne Fulton" wrote in message
In article <41478064$0$20254$>,
says…

When I scan in with my Nikon IV I get a smooth histogram.
If I adjust Levels etc, "teeth" appear in the histogram with gaps and = spikes. Does this matter for print quality using an Epson 890? I’ve = read somehwere that spikes like this mean posteization. Is that right?
More importnat, is there any way I can flatten these spikes out after = i’ve adjusted Levels and curves, so I get a better image but no = posterization?

Why? The histogram gaps are normally not an issue, normally not visually perceivable in the image itself. We can only see this effect when viewing the histogram. These gaps and spikes are caused by adjusting (shifting) the tone values in 8 bit data with the Level, Curve, or Color Balance tools. When you shift the tone values, say those tones at value 200, up to now be value 202 (just to have a number), in some cases you might leave a gap at 200, only meaning there are no data values remaining with value 200 (no other values to be shifted to become 200). If there is a spike at 202,
it just means the count combined with other tones already there, already with value 202. The histogram simply shows the count of pixels for each possible tone value. The only meaning of the gap is there are no pixels with tone value 200, and the only meaning of the spike is that perhaps there are double the number of pixels with tone value 202. Generally, thee main idea is that for full image contrast, we adjust so that the histogram data extends full range, from 0 to 255. There is no law that says the real scene image data must have values at every possible data value, and there is no law that says we must have an equal tonal distributions (the proverbial image of black cat in coal mine, or polar bear in snow storm, are certainly big exceptions to everything). The histogram pixel counts simply depend on the image content, and images differ from each other. More importantly, the human eye can barely distinguish values 200 from 202, so this gap/spike is certainly no big deal. You wanted to change the tone values, remember?

If this is perceived as a problem, the solution is that we can make such tonal changes (at least the drastic changes) in 16 bit data, so that the gaps/spikes are unseen. This means to output 16 bit data from scanner, change the tones in 16 bit data in Photoshop, then convert to 8 bit mode afterwards. Make no mistake, we still get the same gaps/spikes in 16 bit data, but we just cannot see those gaps/spikes when the 16 bit data is displayed in a 8 bit histogram display, or after the data is regrouped as 8 bit mode. Many of us do it this way, and for that reason, but there is no actual difference in results when viewing the image.
Otherwise, if ignored, in very worst case, the nit-pickers remind us that the gaps and spikes might possibly theoretically combine in an extreme way so that the most extreme cases of wide gaps might possibly might become visible in the image, seen as banding (posterization) in very wide smooth gradients (sky, walls, etc). But as a general practical case, it simply is not an issue. We look at the image, not the histogram.


Wayne
http://www.scantips.com "A few scanning tips"
in article 4148970c$0$20246$, Bobby Dogg at
wrote on 09/15/2004 12:25 PM:

I’ll not lose too much sleep over how great http://www.artistmike.com is… I just have to go on with my regular life.

Bobby D

It is best to know your limits and not feel bad about them.
ME
Mike Engles
Sep 15, 2004
Bobby Dogg wrote:
When I scan in with my Nikon IV I get a smooth histogram.
If I adjust Levels etc, "teeth" appear in the histogram with gaps and spikes. Does this matter for print quality using an Epson 890? I’ve read somehwere that spikes like this mean posteization. Is that right?

More importnat, is there any way I can flatten these spikes out after i’ve adjusted Levels and curves, so I get a better image but no posterization?

Many thanks

Bobby D

Hello

In scanner extras in the Nikon applet, you should be able to scan in 12 bit. Do all tonal adjustments in 12 bit and then use Image/Mode 8 bit.

Mike Engles
BK
Brian K
Sep 16, 2004
A great explanation.

"Wayne Fulton" wrote in message
In article <41478064$0$20254$>,
says…

When I scan in with my Nikon IV I get a smooth histogram.
If I adjust Levels etc, "teeth" appear in the histogram with gaps and = spikes. Does this matter for print quality using an Epson 890? I’ve = read somehwere that spikes like this mean posteization. Is that right?
More importnat, is there any way I can flatten these spikes out after = i’ve adjusted Levels and curves, so I get a better image but no = posterization?

Why? The histogram gaps are normally not an issue, normally not visually perceivable in the image itself. We can only see this effect when viewing the histogram. These gaps and spikes are caused by adjusting (shifting) the tone values in 8 bit data with the Level, Curve, or Color Balance tools. When you shift the tone values, say those tones at value 200, up to now be value 202 (just to have a number), in some cases you might leave a gap at 200, only meaning there are no data values remaining with value 200 (no other values to be shifted to become 200). If there is a spike at 202,
it just means the count combined with other tones already there, already with value 202. The histogram simply shows the count of pixels for each possible tone value. The only meaning of the gap is there are no pixels with tone value 200, and the only meaning of the spike is that perhaps there are double the number of pixels with tone value 202. Generally, thee main idea is that for full image contrast, we adjust so that the histogram data extends full range, from 0 to 255. There is no law that says the real scene image data must have values at every possible data value, and there is no law that says we must have an equal tonal distributions (the proverbial image of black cat in coal mine, or polar bear in snow storm, are certainly big exceptions to everything). The histogram pixel counts simply depend on the image content, and images differ from each other. More importantly, the human eye can barely distinguish values 200 from 202, so this gap/spike is certainly no big deal. You wanted to change the tone values, remember?

If this is perceived as a problem, the solution is that we can make such tonal changes (at least the drastic changes) in 16 bit data, so that the gaps/spikes are unseen. This means to output 16 bit data from scanner, change the tones in 16 bit data in Photoshop, then convert to 8 bit mode afterwards. Make no mistake, we still get the same gaps/spikes in 16 bit data, but we just cannot see those gaps/spikes when the 16 bit data is displayed in a 8 bit histogram display, or after the data is regrouped as 8 bit mode. Many of us do it this way, and for that reason, but there is no actual difference in results when viewing the image.
Otherwise, if ignored, in very worst case, the nit-pickers remind us that the gaps and spikes might possibly theoretically combine in an extreme way so that the most extreme cases of wide gaps might possibly might become visible in the image, seen as banding (posterization) in very wide smooth gradients (sky, walls, etc). But as a general practical case, it simply is not an issue. We look at the image, not the histogram.


Wayne
http://www.scantips.com "A few scanning tips"

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