Major color separation problem

JL
Posted By
Joanna_Lakey
Nov 20, 2003
Views
865
Replies
20
Status
Closed
I have a really big problem here. I am very proficient with Photoshop (using CS) in terms of outputting to photo labs,ink jet, web, video commercials etc. My problem is that I have been offered to do all the newspaper ads (two color) for a local car dealership, and the newspaper (that has printed beautiful images for stories from pdf files from me in the past) says that they are unable to do the color separations on the files I send them. I have asked them how they prefer the cmyk setup to be and they can’t tell me. They are saying that Photoshop is not the software to use – I need a page layout like Quark for it to work! This makes NO since to me. My cmyk setting (after a lot of searching on my own) are:

SWOP (newsprint)30% GCR medium
Grey dot gain 20%
Spot dot gain 20%
Black generation medium
Black ink limit 100%
Total ink 300%
UCA amt. 0%

I sure hope some of you can help me. The owner of the dealership LOVES the sample proof that I print out for approval, but the newspaper is butchering it!

Thanks to all,
Joanna

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CC
Chris_Cox
Nov 20, 2003
Sounds like someone at the newspaper doesn’t like you (and is lying through their teeth).
RP
Russell_Proulx
Nov 20, 2003
Joanna,

Are you putting the whole ad together using Photoshop (text, logos and photos) or are you just supplying images and someone at the newspaper will be putting the ad together?

Most printers prefer that you supply ads using non-bitmapped programs like Illustrator, InDesign, Quark, or even Corel Draw (yikes). Photoshop is not really a layout program. Text and other graphic elements get converted to pixels and it’s not as sharp (or certainly not scalable) as it would be using any of these other programs. Typically you would import your photos into one of these postscript friendly applications and create your text and any graphic elements (lines, boxes, logos, etc..) in there.

If you’re supplying them everything as a single Photoshop image then I can understand that they might not view this as acceptable quality.

If you already know this and I’ve misunderstood your question then… never mind 🙂

Russell
L
LenHewitt
Nov 20, 2003
Joanna,

If printing in two colours, unless you are creating Duotones, you need to use a spot channel for the second colour and Save As DCS-2 EPS files, multiple file with colour composite, 8-bit preview and ASCII encoding.

To avoid having a Rich Black and so just generate a ‘K’ plate for the black you also need to set your Black Generation to Max in the separation options
EG
Eco_Gatdula
Nov 20, 2003
Did you send them a PSCS native file?
JL
Joanna_Lakey
Nov 20, 2003
Thank you all so much for your help and suggestions. I am doing it all in Photoshop. The ad is red and black. I have ( by the newspaper’s request )made sure that the red I use is 100% magenta since they use red for the magenta plate. My black generation was set to medium but I can change it to max. Also they request it be saved to a PDF file. Oh, Len yes I have read that EPS files are what most newspapers want like you say. I am not sure how to do a spot channed, but I am sure how to get my book out and search for an answer to that one. It’s 5:50AM here this morning and I need to have another ad ready later this morning. I think I will generate several files in different formats on a CD for them and see which ones might work best. Also to Russell I do have InDesign, but haven’t had a need to use it for the work I do prior to this point and am not very familiar with it. I really don’t want to have to learn a new program as busy as I am, but if it is the only way I will.

Thanks again to all and I’ll let you know what happens. I’m sure I’m not the only one that has had this problem.

Joanna
JL
Joanna_Lakey
Nov 20, 2003
OK, here is an update. I just got back from the newspaper office where I met with the girl doing the print separations. She said Photoshop won’t work for color separations because when you convert a document to CMYK your areas that were designated for the magenta plate become mixed with a little of the three other colors. Even though I had only 100% black and 100% magenta in the different areas of the ad when I designed it, when she opened it in Quark both the black and magenta were mixed with the other colors. I gave her 4 different files and one with a spot color for the magenta. Do I understand this? NO! But I saw it. For a temporary fix (I hope) I’m sending two files to them – one black only and one magenta only. She said i needed to use InDesign or Pagemaker to design ads for this type of output.
Thanks again for all your help,
Joanna
RB
Rich_Beardsley
Nov 20, 2003
because when you convert a document to CMYK your areas that were designated
for the magenta plate become mixed with a little of the three other colors

If they are printing in spot colors, why on earth are they converting to CMYK?

She said i needed to use InDesign or Pagemaker to design ads for this
type of output.

Incorrect. They don’t know what they are doing.
JL
Joanna_Lakey
Nov 20, 2003
Rich you may very well be right, but I don’t know what else to try at this point. Sure don’t look forward to learning a new program.
RB
Rich_Beardsley
Nov 20, 2003
I’d call another printer personally.
L
LenHewitt
Nov 20, 2003
Joanna,

She said Photoshop won’t work for color separations because when you
convert a document to CMYK your areas that were designated for the magenta plate become mixed with a little of the three other colors. <<

That is why you need to use Spot Channels.

You create a New Spot channel from the Channels Palette. One catch – Spot channels overprint by default – if you need knockout you have to create it your self by deleting the relevant content in all other channels.
JL
Joanna_Lakey
Nov 20, 2003
Len I did produce a file like you suggested with a spot channel, but they didn’t even look at it. Just kept saying it wouldn’t work. I’m still waiting to hear back from them on whether the two files I emailed them (one for black and one for the magenta) will work.
B
BLUDVLZ
Nov 20, 2003
Joanna,

Do you by chance know if the newspaper is using any sort of Pagination program (Ad Manager, et al.). Those pagination systems are (in my experience) a rather finicky sort. If it isn’t a TIFF or generic EPS, it spits it back out, defaults on printing or just crashes without saying why.

If you are using Len’s suggestion, how are you saving your files? Are you using the DCS 2.0 format (72ppi Composite, Multiple File)? If not, you should.

It seems to me that this newspaper is wrong about a great many things (mostly likely due to ignorance). They are correct in that you should be using a layout program like Quark or InDesign to lay out your ads, it would make things easier; but they are also very wrong in saying that it’s the only way that it can be done … more to the point, what you’re probably running up against is that they only know how to do seps in Quark and anything else is beyond their scope of knowledge.

Having worked for a newspaper for 4 years, and now having to send files to newspapers regularly, I am constantly exposed to the severe lack of knowledge and training that is prevalent in the industry. I, too, find myself having to jump through many a hoop for certain publications in order to get them a file that a- they feel comfortable working with, or B- their antiquated equipment can handle.

Is this a big newspaper, or a po-dunk small town rag? Do you know what equipment they’re running, or do you have a copy of their rate card/camera ready requirements?
JL
Joanna_Lakey
Nov 20, 2003
All I know is they are using Quark 3 or 3.5 (I forget which but it is an old version) and Photoshop 5. It is a small town newspaper for sure. They did let me know that they are having trouble with several customer’s files.

I did try the DCS format as you described but no go. I got a call from them just a little while ago and they are going to try and work with the two files I sent them (one black and one magenta) and if they can’t get it to work they will just print the ad in black and white.

I bought InDesign a couple of years ago and just never had the need to use it before now. I don’t even want to think about the learning curve that would require, but I’m sure you are right that it would probably be best if I do.
B
BLUDVLZ
Nov 20, 2003
Wow! Quark 3? How 10 years ago! Photoshop 5 was about 5 years ago, so you are definitely dealing with a severely out-of-date publication.

Do you by chance have Acrobat? You could print your separations to the PDF Printer and give them two plates they could then output and then just paste up.

FWIW, InDesign is a quick learn. Granted, I came from a PageMaker->Quark->InDesign background, so my learning curve was less, but since Adobe makes Photoshop and InDesign, I think you’ll find that one program pretty much works as you would expect. You’ll just gain greater typography control and printing capabilities.
RB
Rich_Beardsley
Nov 21, 2003
All I know is they are using Quark 3 or 3.5 (I forget which but it is
an old version) and Photoshop 5

<sarcasm> Nice of them to spend a couple of bucks to keep up with the times. </sarcasm>

Please remind them that you are their customer. You are paying them money! If they cannot do their part to accept your files, another printer will.
RP
Russell_Proulx
Nov 21, 2003
Rich,

The ‘customer’ here is the car dealership and the printer is the newspaper where they want to run their ad. The world is full of qualified graphic artists who can easily put together a simple 2 color job using industry standard software (Mac + Quark 4.x or Illustrator 8). Yes, it can also be done with Windows, but you still need to put it together properly. It’s not right for a supplier (Joanna) to expect the client and the newspaper (where ‘they’ want to place their ad) to dance to your tune when so many other suppliers would have no problem doing this. Joanna’s going to have to quickly learn to deliver something they can use or they’ll simply hire someone else who can. THAT is the reality of competition in business.

Sorry Joanna, no offense. I just don’t think you’re in a position to demand very much from your client. Have you thought of partnering with a local graphic artist to make your life easier?

Russell
EG
Eco_Gatdula
Nov 21, 2003
Start your project in CMYK mode. Then assign the color you want say 100% magenta and 100%black respectively to area you want it fall. Save it as tif or eps. Then tell to the girl that just import the file to any page layout program she wanted.
JL
Joanna_Lakey
Nov 21, 2003
Sorry Joanna, no offense. I just don’t think you’re in a position to demand very much from your client. Have you thought of partnering with a local graphic artist to make your life easier?

No offense taken Russell. You people in this forum have always come through whenever people are having problems. I have thought of just hiring someone and have done with it. I stay so busy with video commercials and portrait retouching I don’t need this but I’m a perfectionist and it is hard to admit I can’t produce a simple two color ad.

Bludvlz – yes I do have the full version of Acrobat. Will try that and see if it works.

Thanks again to everyone for your time and effort!
RB
Rich_Beardsley
Nov 21, 2003
Russell,

Sorry to disagree, but if the printer cannot either A) Use what she gave them, or B ) Take that psd file and change it to make it work for a small fee. then they are NOT doing their job.

To tell her that she needs to buy a page layout program, when they are using 5 and 10 year old outdated software is ludicrous.

It’s not right for a supplier (Joanna) to expect the client and the
newspaper (where ‘they’ want to place their ad) to dance to your tune when so many other suppliers would have no problem doing this

If she is using up to date software, then I think she should expect them to dance to her tune. Maybe other suppliers would have no problem putting the file togeather in a way the printer can use, but the flip side is many other printers would have no problem dealing with the file that she supplied.

I’m an Adobe Service Provider. I spend a lot of money keeping up to date with software and equipment, as well as on employees who know what their doing. Quite frankly, what she gave them would be no problem for us to use.

But that’s just my opinion. I could be wrong.
JS
John_Slate
Nov 21, 2003
My 2 cents:

Except for maybe rasterizing type, there is nothing wrong with the way Joanna prepared her files in the first place. It’s called using proxy colors. Using the black and magenta channels of a CMYK file for a 2 color job is fine, provided you let the printer know how you have prepared the files, and also provided you pay attention to the actual content of the "black" areas lest they contain magenta, but it seems Joanna had that covered when she said, "Even though I had only 100% black and 100% magenta in the different areas of the ad when I designed it…"

But this continues, "when she opened it in Quark both the black and magenta were mixed with the other colors."

Hmmm…

There is no such thing as "opening" a photoshop file in QXP.

There is placing, but no opening, and placing and printing will not reseparate the file and add tone in one channel or another where there was no tone before.

Simply put, the people at this newspaper are totally clueless.

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