advantage B&W film versus color film

GC
Posted By
Gestion CEF
Jan 22, 2004
Views
620
Replies
20
Status
Closed
My typical workflows is; old Nikon camera, film scanner, Photoshop and Epson1280 printer. I want to produce black and white print with MIS quadtone ink. My question is:

Is there an advantage of using a B&W film, ex. Portra 400BW, versus a color film, ex. Portra 400UC converted to B&W in PhotoShop? Paul

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– 48 MacBook Pro 16″ mockups

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S
Stephan
Jan 22, 2004
"Gestion CEF" wrote in message
My typical workflows is; old Nikon camera, film scanner, Photoshop and Epson1280 printer. I want to produce black and white print with MIS quadtone ink. My question is:

Is there an advantage of using a B&W film, ex. Portra 400BW, versus a color film, ex. Portra 400UC converted to B&W in PhotoShop?

The real advantage is the processing.
I buy my BW bulk (100") and process it on my kitchen counter. It gives me more control.
You can transform a Portra in a decent BW with Channel Mixer, no problem,

Stephan
TE
Tin Ear
Jan 22, 2004
"Stephan" wrote in message
"Gestion CEF" wrote in message
My typical workflows is; old Nikon camera, film scanner, Photoshop and Epson1280 printer. I want to produce black and white print with MIS quadtone ink. My question is:

Is there an advantage of using a B&W film, ex. Portra 400BW, versus a color film, ex. Portra 400UC converted to B&W in PhotoShop?

The real advantage is the processing.
I buy my BW bulk (100") and process it on my kitchen counter. It gives me more control.
You can transform a Portra in a decent BW with Channel Mixer, no problem,
Stephan
I’ll back that answer. Control is everything and there is no substitute for total process control. I don’t know if you do Zone System, but with B&W and your own developing, you can tailor perfect negatives to your final product with your equipment. The less digital magic you need to perform, the better the final product. You can get a really good B&W image from a color negative, but there is no substitute for B&W all the way.
GC
Gestion CEF
Jan 22, 2004
Thanks for your answer. It confirm my intuition. Il will return to my old thanks
Paul

On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 18:03:17 GMT, "Stephan"
wrote:

"Gestion CEF" wrote in message
My typical workflows is; old Nikon camera, film scanner, Photoshop and Epson1280 printer. I want to produce black and white print with MIS quadtone ink. My question is:

Is there an advantage of using a B&W film, ex. Portra 400BW, versus a color film, ex. Portra 400UC converted to B&W in PhotoShop?

The real advantage is the processing.
I buy my BW bulk (100") and process it on my kitchen counter. It gives me more control.
You can transform a Portra in a decent BW with Channel Mixer, no problem,
Stephan
S
Stephan
Jan 22, 2004
"Stephan" wrote in message
"Gestion CEF" wrote in message
My typical workflows is; old Nikon camera, film scanner, Photoshop and Epson1280 printer. I want to produce black and white print with MIS quadtone ink. My question is:

Is there an advantage of using a B&W film, ex. Portra 400BW, versus a color film, ex. Portra 400UC converted to B&W in PhotoShop?

The real advantage is the processing.
I buy my BW bulk (100") and process it on my kitchen counter. It gives me more control.
You can transform a Portra in a decent BW with Channel Mixer, no problem,
Stephan
Bulk is 100 feet of course, not inch.

S
J
Jim
Jan 22, 2004
The film he is discussing is processed in C41 chemicals. If he really wants to have total control, he should switch to Tri X. At least, we know that Tri X will last for a very very long time.

Jim
"Stephan" wrote in message
"Gestion CEF" wrote in message
My typical workflows is; old Nikon camera, film scanner, Photoshop and Epson1280 printer. I want to produce black and white print with MIS quadtone ink. My question is:

Is there an advantage of using a B&W film, ex. Portra 400BW, versus a color film, ex. Portra 400UC converted to B&W in PhotoShop?

The real advantage is the processing.
I buy my BW bulk (100") and process it on my kitchen counter. It gives me more control.
You can transform a Portra in a decent BW with Channel Mixer, no problem,
Stephan

ND
Norm Dresner
Jan 23, 2004
"Gestion CEF" wrote in message
My typical workflows is; old Nikon camera, film scanner, Photoshop and Epson1280 printer. I want to produce black and white print with MIS quadtone ink. My question is:

Is there an advantage of using a B&W film, ex. Portra 400BW, versus a color film, ex. Portra 400UC converted to B&W in PhotoShop?

The real advantage of B/W film over color film is in its much greater "tonal range", the range in densities between the and darkest portions of the image. In photographic terms, a B/W film typically has at least 3-5 f-stops greater range.

Norm
H
Hecate
Jan 23, 2004
On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 12:46:42 -0500, Gestion CEF
wrote:

My typical workflows is; old Nikon camera, film scanner, Photoshop and Epson1280 printer. I want to produce black and white print with MIS quadtone ink. My question is:

Is there an advantage of using a B&W film, ex. Portra 400BW, versus a color film, ex. Portra 400UC converted to B&W in PhotoShop? Paul

Loads. Better tone, greater resolution, more flexibility, better processing control….etc 😉

I would say though, that you’d be better with a "proper" black and white film rather than a C41 processed film which has fewer benefits. Something like my favourite Tri-X, or if you prefer something newer, TMax. And there’s always Fuji Neopan ( I like the 1600 speed of that).

Have fun with it. 🙂



Hecate

veni, vidi, reliqui
H
Hecate
Jan 23, 2004
On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 23:56:19 GMT, "Jim" wrote:

The film he is discussing is processed in C41 chemicals. If he really wants to have total control, he should switch to Tri X. At least, we know that Tri X will last for a very very long time.
Yaaaaay1 Another Tri-X fanatic 😉



Hecate

veni, vidi, reliqui
S
Stephan
Jan 23, 2004
"Hecate" wrote in message
On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 23:56:19 GMT, "Jim" wrote:
The film he is discussing is processed in C41 chemicals. If he really
wants
to have total control, he should switch to Tri X. At least, we know that Tri X will last for a very very long time.
Yaaaaay1 Another Tri-X fanatic 😉
What developer do you use?

Stephan
RF
Robert Feinman
Jan 23, 2004
In article ,
says…
My typical workflows is; old Nikon camera, film scanner, Photoshop and Epson1280 printer. I want to produce black and white print with MIS quadtone ink. My question is:

Is there an advantage of using a B&W film, ex. Portra 400BW, versus a color film, ex. Portra 400UC converted to B&W in PhotoShop? Paul
It would be interesting to see some comparison shots between modern color negative films and traditional black and white.
The control of the negative density is not as important when making digital prints since the curve shape can be altered when editing. As for the tonal range, medium speed color negative films probably have as much range and normally developed black and white (10 stops or so).
So an objective test could compare sharpness and grain, for example. Personally I’ve stopped using black and white. You can look at my tips on getting good quality monochrome ink jet prints from color originals.


Robert D Feinman

Landscapes, Cityscapes, Panoramas and Photoshop Tips
http://robertdfeinman.com
H
Hecate
Jan 24, 2004
On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 08:54:28 -0500, Robert Feinman
wrote:

It would be interesting to see some comparison shots between modern color negative films and traditional black and white.
The control of the negative density is not as important when making digital prints since the curve shape can be altered when editing. As for the tonal range, medium speed color negative films probably have as much range and normally developed black and white (10 stops or so).
So an objective test could compare sharpness and grain, for example. Personally I’ve stopped using black and white. You can look at my tips on getting good quality monochrome ink jet prints from color originals.

The problem with colour film is the grain. It doesn’t have any that’s interesting. 🙂



Hecate

veni, vidi, reliqui
H
Hecate
Jan 24, 2004
On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 04:54:53 GMT, "Stephan"
wrote:

"Hecate" wrote in message
On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 23:56:19 GMT, "Jim" wrote:
The film he is discussing is processed in C41 chemicals. If he really
wants
to have total control, he should switch to Tri X. At least, we know that Tri X will last for a very very long time.
Yaaaaay1 Another Tri-X fanatic 😉
What developer do you use?
I used to use Rodinal or Microphen depending on what I wanted. But I gave up developing a while back when I found someone who could do the job for me, getting the results I wanted. He’s an independent processor – not cheap, but I’ve never had to complain.



Hecate

veni, vidi, reliqui
D
Dave
Jan 25, 2004
"Gestion CEF" wrote in message
My typical workflows is; old Nikon camera, film scanner, Photoshop and Epson1280 printer. I want to produce black and white print with MIS quadtone ink. My question is:

Is there an advantage of using a B&W film, ex. Portra 400BW, versus a color film, ex. Portra 400UC converted to B&W in PhotoShop? Paul

Color film for B&W digital output does have some advantages. First, scanning a B&W negative will give you an image with less data than a scan of a color image (no real color data, even though it may be a color/RGB scan of the negative). Scanning a color image (negative or positive) will give you three channels of color information. This is closer to the original scene than the scan of a B&W negative, meaning that when you start to manipulate it digitally you are starting with more (real/usable) data. Because many image manipulations loose data, you’re better off starting with more.

Second, channel mixing a color image is the equivalent of using a color filter on the taking lens when using B&W film. But using a filter on the lens creates an image-wide shift of the tonal values. For instance, a red filter will darken blue sky, but it will also affect every other element that makes up the image, sometimes leading to tonal shifts in some elements that are not desirable. The use of a color filter on the lens in B&W photography can be an exercise in compromise, unless you are lucky enough to be photographing a scene that is not otherwise unfavorably affected by your choice of filter. But when starting with a color image in Photoshop, channel mixing can be applied selectively to different parts of the image by using masks, giving you MUCH more control than slapping a filter on the lens and affecting the entire image. By using masks each image element can be given the channel mix that best produces the image effect the artist/photographer desires, rather than being stuck with the compromise imposed by the use of a color filter and B&W film.

Third, because you started with a color image, you can make both color and B&W prints from it. Yes, you can easily color a B&W image in Photoshop, but it just isn’t the same thing! (It will look like a hand-colored B&W image rather than a real color image.)

Fourth, because we are talking about digitizing and using Photoshop on the image, tonal range is not matter of concern. Whether shooting B&W or color, you can bracket your exposures and then put them together in Photoshop (either manually or using a plug-in for the purpose), building a single image with greater tonal range than can be captured by either type of film. Because most pros bracket (35mm film is very inexpensive per frame) this does not make for extra steps at the time of making the photographs, but actually can put to good use frames that might otherwise be deemed improperly exposed. Yes, there is an extra step involved in putting the images together in Photoshop, but you would do this to improve the tonal range in the image if necessary. Remember that desktop scanners don’t always get every last bit of tonal range from an image, so to wring that data out of your film and into digital form you should already be building tonal range from multiple images (aren’t you?). (Try this–make two or more scans of a contrasty image. Make separate scans for the highlights, the midtones and the shadows. [Make the best scan you can for each, don’t allow the image to become full of artifacts by pushing it too far.] Then put them together in a single image of greater tonal range than any single scan. Don’t have a plug-in that does it for you? It can be done manually. But that’s beyond the scope of this thread! LOL)

FYI, when I do scan a B&W image (neg. or pos.) I make an RGB scan. Why? Most noise ends up in the B channel and can be disposed. Also, the 24 bit RGB image has more image data than an 8 bit greyscale image, giving me more data to start with and greater control over the finished image. But with B&W digital output being the objective, given a choice between starting with B&W or color film, I’d pick color because it starts me out with more data, giving me more options and greater control over the final results.

My web site is currently down, but you can see the a few of my B&W images at the following links. All began as color transparencies, scanned in RGB, and had channel mixes selectively applied to them. I hope that they speak to the quality of image that can be attained when starting with color and working towards B&W.

http://www.dgrenier.com/alvord.jpg
http://www.dgrenier.com/christ.jpg
http://www.dgrenier.com/door.jpg
http://www.dgrenier.com/squall.jpg

Dave Grenier
Olympia, WA
L
llutton
Jan 25, 2004
Color film for B&W digital output does have some advantages. First, scanning a B&W negative will give you an image with less data than a scan of a color image (no real color data, even though it may be a color/RGB scan of the negative). Scanning a color image (negative or positive) will give you three channels of color information. This is closer to the original scene than the scan of a B&W negative, meaning that when you start to manipulate it digitally you are starting with more (real/usable) data. Because many image manipulations loose data, you’re better off starting with more.
Second, channel mixing a color image is the equivalent of using a color filter on the taking lens when using B&W film. But using a filter on the lens creates an image-wide shift of the tonal values. For instance, a red filter will darken blue sky, but it will also affect every other element that makes up the image, sometimes leading to tonal shifts in some elements that are not desirable. The use of a color filter on the lens in B&W photography can be an exercise in compromise, unless you are lucky enough to be photographing a scene that is not otherwise unfavorably affected by your choice of filter. But when starting with a color image in Photoshop, channel mixing can be applied selectively to different parts of the image by using masks, giving you MUCH more control than slapping a filter on the lens and affecting the entire image. By using masks each image element can be given the channel mix that best produces the image effect the artist/photographer desires, rather than being stuck with the compromise imposed by the use of a color filter and B&W film.

Third, because you started with a color image, you can make both color and B&W prints from it. Yes, you can easily color a B&W image in Photoshop, but it just isn’t the same thing! (It will look like a hand-colored B&W image rather than a real color image.)

Fourth, because we are talking about digitizing and using Photoshop on the image, tonal range is not matter of concern. Whether shooting B&W or color, you can bracket your exposures and then put them together in Photoshop (either manually or using a plug-in for the purpose), building a single image with greater tonal range than can be captured by either type of film. Because most pros bracket (35mm film is very inexpensive per frame) this does not make for extra steps at the time of making the photographs, but actually can put to good use frames that might otherwise be deemed improperly exposed. Yes, there is an extra step involved in putting the images together in Photoshop, but you would do this to improve the tonal range in the image if necessary. Remember that desktop scanners don’t always get every last bit of tonal range from an image, so to wring that data out of your film and into digital form you should already be building tonal range from multiple images (aren’t you?). (Try this–make two or more scans of a contrasty image. Make separate scans for the highlights, the midtones and the shadows. [Make the best scan you can for each, don’t allow the image to become full of artifacts by pushing it too far.] Then put them together in a single image of greater tonal range than any single scan. Don’t have a plug-in that does it for you? It can be done manually. But that’s beyond the scope of this thread! LOL)

FYI, when I do scan a B&W image (neg. or pos.) I make an RGB scan. Why? Most noise ends up in the B channel and can be disposed. Also, the 24 bit RGB image has more image data than an 8 bit greyscale image, giving me more data to start with and greater control over the finished image. But with B&W digital output being the objective, given a choice between starting with B&W or color film, I’d pick color because it starts me out with more data, giving me more options and greater control over the final results.
My web site is currently down, but you can see the a few of my B&W images at the following links. All began as color transparencies, scanned in RGB, and had channel mixes selectively applied to them. I hope that they speak to the quality of image that can be attained when starting with color and working towards B&W.
http://www.dgrenier.com/christ.jpg
http://www.dgrenier.com/door.jpg
http://www.dgrenier.com/squall.jpg

Great pictures. What software can I get to eliminate hand blending of the different scans?
Lynn
H
Hecate
Jan 26, 2004
On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 23:45:06 -0800, "Dave" wrote:

"Gestion CEF" wrote in message
My typical workflows is; old Nikon camera, film scanner, Photoshop and Epson1280 printer. I want to produce black and white print with MIS quadtone ink. My question is:

Is there an advantage of using a B&W film, ex. Portra 400BW, versus a color film, ex. Portra 400UC converted to B&W in PhotoShop? Paul

Color film for B&W digital output does have some advantages. First, scanning a B&W negative will give you an image with less data than a scan of a color image (no real color data, even though it may be a color/RGB scan of the negative). Scanning a color image (negative or positive) will give you three channels of color information. This is closer to the original scene than the scan of a B&W negative, meaning that when you start to manipulate it digitally you are starting with more (real/usable) data. Because many image manipulations loose data, you’re better off starting with more.
That, of course, assumes that you actually want something that is close to the original scene. Most of the people I know who work in B&W do so precisely because it *isn’t* close to the original scene. B&W has become, in the main, something that is used for Fine Art photography and it is precisely the qualities of B&W as opposed to colour that are required. I don’t want a portrait to be "accurate", I want it to express the person’s character. I don’t want a B&W landscape to look accurate – if I did, I’d have shot it in colour. And so forth. There’s nothing wrong with the points you’re making, except that, in B&W, they don’t really apply.



Hecate

veni, vidi, reliqui
MR
Mike Russell
Jan 27, 2004
Hecate wrote:
On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 23:45:06 -0800, "Dave" wrote:
"Gestion CEF" wrote in message
My typical workflows is; old Nikon camera, film scanner, Photoshop and Epson1280 printer. I want to produce black and white print with MIS quadtone ink. My question is:

Is there an advantage of using a B&W film, ex. Portra 400BW, versus a color film, ex. Portra 400UC converted to B&W in PhotoShop? Paul

Color film for B&W digital output does have some advantages. First, scanning a B&W negative will give you an image with less data than a scan of a color image (no real color data, even though it may be a color/RGB scan of the negative). Scanning a color image (negative or positive) will give you three channels of color information. This is closer to the original scene than the scan of a B&W negative, meaning that when you start to manipulate it digitally you are starting with more (real/usable) data. Because many image manipulations loose data, you’re better off starting with more.
That, of course, assumes that you actually want something that is close to the original scene. Most of the people I know who work in B&W do so precisely because it *isn’t* close to the original scene. B&W has become, in the main, something that is used for Fine Art photography and it is precisely the qualities of B&W as opposed to colour that are required. I don’t want a portrait to be "accurate", I want it to express the person’s character. I don’t want a B&W landscape to look accurate – if I did, I’d have shot it in colour. And so forth. There’s nothing wrong with the points you’re making, except that, in B&W, they don’t really apply.

Dave’s broader point, or aprt of it, was that you can manipulate the image afterward to simulate different filters, darkening the sky, etc, without having to commit yourself ahead of time. Some people might want this as an option.


Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com
www.geigy.2y.net
D
dgrenier
Feb 1, 2004
snip<

That, of course, assumes that you actually want something that is close to the original scene. Most of the people I know who work in B&W do so precisely because it *isn’t* close to the original scene. B&W has become, in the main, something that is used for Fine Art photography and it is precisely the qualities of B&W as opposed to colour that are required. I don’t want a portrait to be "accurate", I want it to express the person’s character. I don’t want a B&W landscape to look accurate – if I did, I’d have shot it in colour. And so forth. There’s nothing wrong with the points you’re making, except that, in B&W, they don’t really apply.

Dave’s broader point, or aprt of it, was that you can manipulate the image afterward to simulate different filters, darkening the sky, etc, without having to commit yourself ahead of time. Some people might want this as
an
option.


Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com
www.geigy.2y.net

Yes, my point is *not* that you get a final result (on screen or in print) that looks like the original scene, but that capturing the scene in color (whether using film or digital) allows the artist to start at the computer with an image that looks more like the original scene. This is so because the capture will have color information that was present in the real scene that will be absent from a B&W capture of the same scene, which of course will only have luminance/tonal information from the scene. The final result (whether it is displayed in color or B&W) will look as much like or be as different from the original scene as the artist deems necessary to achieve his vision.
Capturing all of the information from the original scene that it is possible to record will give the artist more options when manipulating that image digitally because it contains more data that can be manipulated. Having more options means greater creative control over the results.

Dave Grenier
Olympia, WA
H
Hecate
Feb 2, 2004
On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 19:00:46 -0800, "D. Grenier" wrote:

Yes, my point is *not* that you get a final result (on screen or in print) that looks like the original scene, but that capturing the scene in color (whether using film or digital) allows the artist to start at the computer with an image that looks more like the original scene. This is so because the capture will have color information that was present in the real scene that will be absent from a B&W capture of the same scene, which of course will only have luminance/tonal information from the scene. The final result (whether it is displayed in color or B&W) will look as much like or be as different from the original scene as the artist deems necessary to achieve his vision.
Capturing all of the information from the original scene that it is possible to record will give the artist more options when manipulating that image digitally because it contains more data that can be manipulated. Having more options means greater creative control over the results.

I understand your point, but then, it’s not *real* black and white. The point of black and white is to *only* record the luminance/tonal information and not to have the image *altered* by colour information. Whilst I would agree, that, in the past, when black and white was the main image format, producing an image which is as much a "record shot" as anything was important, that’s not true nowadays. Personally, I want a black and white image to have the characteristics of black and white, not to be a manipulated colour image. The skill with black and white film is getting the image you want *within the limitations of the film type*. Otherwise, you may just as well shoot, and produce, every image in colour.



Hecate

veni, vidi, reliqui
MR
Mike Russell
Feb 2, 2004
Hecate wrote:
On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 19:00:46 -0800, "D. Grenier" wrote:

Yes, my point is *not* that you get a final result (on screen or in print) that looks like the original scene, but that capturing the scene in color (whether using film or digital) allows the artist to start at the computer with an image that looks more like the original scene. This is so because the capture will have color information that was present in the real scene that will be absent from a B&W capture of the same scene, which of course will only have luminance/tonal information from the scene. The final result (whether it is displayed in color or B&W) will look as much like or be as different from the original scene as the artist deems necessary to achieve his vision.
Capturing all of the information from the original scene that it is possible to record will give the artist more options when manipulating that image digitally because it contains more data that can be manipulated. Having more options means greater creative control over the results.

I understand your point, but then, it’s not *real* black and white. The point of black and white is to *only* record the luminance/tonal information and not to have the image *altered* by colour information. Whilst I would agree, that, in the past, when black and white was the main image format, producing an image which is as much a "record shot" as anything was important, that’s not true nowadays. Personally, I want a black and white image to have the characteristics of black and white, not to be a manipulated colour image. The skill with black and white film is getting the image you want *within the limitations of the film type*. Otherwise, you may just as well shoot, and produce, every image in colour.

But what about filters in black and white photography? Filters were crucial to many of the most famous images from that era. Ansel Adams, for example, used the Wratten #25 filter to make skys darker, almost as a matter of course.

If you accept the use of filters, it seems to me you must, by the same token, accept the post processing of RGB images to create specially blended monochrome images.


Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com
www.geigy.2y.net
RF
Robert Feinman
Feb 2, 2004
In article <iWoTb.8802$>,
says…
Hecate wrote:
On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 19:00:46 -0800, "D. Grenier" wrote:

Yes, my point is *not* that you get a final result (on screen or in print) that looks like the original scene, but that capturing the scene in color (whether using film or digital) allows the artist to start at the computer with an image that looks more like the original scene. This is so because the capture will have color information that was present in the real scene that will be absent from a B&W capture of the same scene, which of course will only have luminance/tonal information from the scene. The final result (whether it is displayed in color or B&W) will look as much like or be as different from the original scene as the artist deems necessary to achieve his vision.
Capturing all of the information from the original scene that it is possible to record will give the artist more options when manipulating that image digitally because it contains more data that can be manipulated. Having more options means greater creative control over the results.

I understand your point, but then, it’s not *real* black and white. The point of black and white is to *only* record the luminance/tonal information and not to have the image *altered* by colour information. Whilst I would agree, that, in the past, when black and white was the main image format, producing an image which is as much a "record shot" as anything was important, that’s not true nowadays. Personally, I want a black and white image to have the characteristics of black and white, not to be a manipulated colour image. The skill with black and white film is getting the image you want *within the limitations of the film type*. Otherwise, you may just as well shoot, and produce, every image in colour.

But what about filters in black and white photography? Filters were crucial to many of the most famous images from that era. Ansel Adams, for example, used the Wratten #25 filter to make skys darker, almost as a matter of course.

If you accept the use of filters, it seems to me you must, by the same token, accept the post processing of RGB images to create specially blended monochrome images.
There is no practical difference between using color film and post- processing it to yield a black and white image and using black and white film to begin with. As a matter of fact there is a company that claims to emulate the spectral responses of various brands of film by means of a photoshop filter.
Blending the channels with the possible additional use of curves on each channel can do the job.
The unique characteristics of black and white film that still exist have to do with sharpness/acutance and grain structure.
If you like shooting black and white, do it. But in reality the only thing that matters is what the print looks like, how you achieve it is your personal decision.
The final result should stand on it’s own merits.


Robert D Feinman

Landscapes, Cityscapes, Panoramas and Photoshop Tips
http://robertdfeinman.com

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