Under Tools>Internet Options, Advanced Tab, scroll down to Java (Sun), make sure it is schecked, restart, and see if that helps.
There is no Java or Sun on that list!
Win Xp doesn´t come with JVM anymore. You need to install either Microsofts Java Virtual Machine (JVM) or Suns’s Java.
Marie,
Let’s suppose that you mend it… Would your visitors be as smart as you? Will they have the will or desire to do so?
I mean… Is it a good idea to use a technology, as good as it might be, that could deprive you from visitors using a quite popular browser?
Excuse me, please. I was just wondering myself…
You should do a check on the index page if Java is installed / enabled. And forward visitors beased on the results. No Java, prompt them to a page that explains why they need it and where to get it. Java enabled, simply foward to the website.
I’m so upset! Thanks for the suggestions and I’ll investigate that Java plug in. However, visitors also using IE6 will see the same fragmented/empty pages that I do now, so as Marc said, they’d have to download a plug-in too. If I went to a website that required that, I’d leave the page. Oh, how I hate this silly feud with Sun Microsystems!
You know, I’m mad enough to take off the applets and re-do the images separately, and put up a large page statement that "due to Microsoft IE6 and its desire to hamper Java applets, the original images have been changed. For more complete web browsing, use another browser."
Does anyone know if IE 5.5 can be used with WinXP or is that hopeless?
Thanks so much for your comments and letting me blow off some frustration…………..mm
"For more complete web browsing, use another browser." "
IE 6 has nothing to do with Java or not. It´s simply WindowsXP that doesn´t come with it ;). Even for Windows 2000 you had to install JVM seperatly.
Making webpages nobody should ever use a plugin on the index page. Not even FLASH or something else mainstream. You must give your visitors the option to check the stuff you present with plugins, not force it on them ;). That´s the trick with good webdesign.
Maybe you can give us the link to your page? I doubt that you´re forced to use Java for images.
Microsoft ditched JVM because they dont like SUN who created it. That meant thousands of webdesigners scrambling to re-design their applet-using websites..
Many are still broken in IE.
Back then I called Microsoft and yelled at some poor guy. He took it upstairs and called me back. He could only tell me that the decision to remove JVM was made, but he was as baffled as I was, at least this telephone guy sounded like he could understand what a mess they had made of themselves..
Well, it never got JVM back. Still pissed at M$.
Now, you just dont use applets (cause we want SUN to die).
Mat
JVM was removed from MS because of lawsuit brought about by SunMicrosystems, who complained that MS did not use Java in the form it was created by Sun, and that they had no right to bastardize the language to create unfar competition (notice problems with the PNG format in Word, MS bastardized that standard too!). MS lost again! Good, MS cannot plagarize/commander/steal other people’s intellectual property rights.
So, in doing a new web site, do we only use MS products? What happens to a website with Java on Netscape or others?
In designing a web site, a designer is responsible for using tools that make the site accessible to the largest viewing audience possible.
Larry Berman
Lawrence,
I´d say you design for Web Standards!! Do not use MS tools to create websites: They will never hold up to standards, and ‘something’ will always be broken somewhere.
Larry,
Now, thats a square way of putting it, Larry, but in essence you are correct that if the site is inaccessible to someone you can blame the designer.
For instance, a site for the entertainment industry is rarely going to be as accessible as a gov doc should be. Depending on the budget, more often, as the savvy flash site is more important in such a case.
I´ve worked a lot with accessibility and CSS (Cascading Style Sheets) systems. It´s not easy because of browser differences, more often you´d have to exclude the top-notch CSS design on at least one browser on one platform, and I have never worked for an employer ever that would in reality pay for a fully accessible website (including accessibility for disabled). But the fight for simpler coding is strong.
When I accept a commision now for (most) websites I will educate my customer as to the benefits of a CSS design. I will build it without frames and without tables, and I will turn off the external CSS in older browsers, making the site fully accessible (and symantic), but with a lesser ‘design’ to it. That way, the primary hit is to my professional pride, not to the information accessibility.
However, testing advanced CSS is a major and expensive chore, which can put many customers off. After all, its SO MUCH easier to clamp together a visual design with MS Frontpage or ImageReady than it is to handcode and test the CSS!
Most ignorant customers will tell you that they just want the page to work in Explorer anyway. Then you tell them how accessible a CSS design can be (PDAs, internet, machine reading, future browser compliance etcetera), the customer informs you that their customers are still using IE4, because they never bothered to update browsers internally, and this goes on till the designer gives up and just give the customer the same old sh!t as they did 10 years ago (frames and tables and messy code).
Mat
Marie,
You ruined your website when you relied on the use of a plug-in that is not installed by most internet users. Be careful where you point that finger.
ID. Awe,
You couldn’t be more wrong. Microsoft added what was called Java Foundation Classes (JFC) to VisualJ++ and their JVM. The JFCs allowed developers to write faster Java code when targeting Windows servers and desktops specifically. Developers had to call these JFCs in their code, it was not included without their knowledge, and while it did make the java applet non-cross-platform, it was a developer decision to do so. Sun did not like these extensions and filed suit against Microsoft eventually forcing them to stop shipping their JVM (which was rapidly aging and becoming incompatible with the newer Java standards anyway) and to remove Java from their systems in a set time frame (I believe it was 7 years).
Microsoft decided to stop quite a bit earlier than Sun had planned and removed Java completely from their OS and applications, including XP and IE, instead putting their full weight behind their .Net initiative. This shocked Sun as well as many in the IT industry and Sun once again filed suit, this time to force Microsoft to include Sun’s JVM in Windows. I don’t recall if this case has been decided but I believe Set Program Access and Defaults option in the XP Start Panel was a result of their litigation.
While it may have been contractually illegal for Microsoft to extend their JVM with the JFCs, the removal of Java from Windows and all Microsoft products was Sun’s fault. It is also the responsibility of the web designer to decide of the inclusion of technology will force users to download plug-ins to view the content.
Lawrence,
Don’t be a moron. Even Jeffrey Zeldman agrees that IE 5 and 6 are fairly up to date on web standards so you can use non-MS apps to write web pages for these browsers. Hell, he even mentions in his book "designing with web standards" that IE 4 had some very cool CSS and DHTML technology that was standards compliant but no one knew what to do with it because it was the only browsers to support the stuff.
I really wish people would turn the color back on in their worlds. It’s not black and white, caveman mentality, "Microsoft bad, ughhhggg, everyone else good, ughhhggg". Microsoft may not be perfect but aren’t going to take the time to research and understand a topic, don’t comment on it. If you rely on others to do the research for you you will inevitably be perpetuating myths, half-truths and outright lies.
Wow. That was a great review. Look, as a designer of an art ed website, I’d like what is there to be colorful, understandable and have some excitement. I like to use applets here and there to show quick views of content (beginning on the index and directory pages)to be seen in that area, and incorporate animations where they can be very instructive.
Up to this time, if IE 6 viewers were seeing fragmented pages like this: <
http://www.mmwindowtoart.com/page2a.html>, then no one has emailed me or complained about it. Actually, I feel bad that it had to happen in my own face for awareness.
A report I read recently was that Microsoft was being sued about this incompatability, and had no plans to make changes for 2 years. Microsoft has good stuff, but it needs to be in a bigger hurry for quality rather than output.
So, doggone it, I’m going to be true to myself, present material in the most interesting and simplified way I can, get the plug in, and put a statement of some sort that IE 6 viewers will not see some images, and just carry on. Ya’ gotta do what ya’ gotta do……….
Oh, how I want IE5.5 back………..
And…it’s not just an IE6 "problem." Those using Mozilla and Firebird browsers won’t see the applet either unless they’ve added the plugin "manually" either.
Just an unsolicitated personal opinion: I see your applet effects in IE6 and find them a bit annoying.
"Oh, how I want IE5.5 back……….. "
Marie, you again fail to understand. It´s not a browser issue. It´s an OS issue (if at all). Somebody running W2000 with IE 5.5 will also not see your Java stuff there.
I checked your page, and honestly, there´s nothing on it you couldn´t do with standard HTML and CSS. You don´t need Java. Like mentioned above by Stewart and Larry. You the designer are responsible for the accessibility of your website. Not Microsoft because XP (and w2000 allready) doesn´t come with Java anymore.
Java is nothing you should use for designing a website anyway. It wasn´t ment to be for that. All these drag and drop one click flashy animation plugins are crap (excuse me) anyway. Now some pages you highly proffesional Java applets, that´s true. But these things are so special that users are pretty much aware of the need for Java.
Marie,
Listen to what the others are saying. Java has its place, but never on a homepage. I’ve been designing and making commercial websites for nearly 10 years and I’ve used a Java applet only once and then only because the client forced me to. The client had me remove it a few weeks later after hearing complaints about how annoying it was. If you’re going to do that kind of thing, learn to write some code and do it properly. Check what the browser is capable of before you serve up the flashy stuff. You can have your applet if you must (personally, I find your whole design amateurish), but provide a non-Java version for those who can’t or won’t allow Java or Flash applets. It’s how professionals do it.
Since version 4.0, IE has followed CSS and web standards as well or better than any other browser. (Just because it’s Microsoft and they added additional elements and attributes doesn’t automatically make it bad.) It’s DHTML capabilities are excellent. Anything you can do in Java or Flash, you can do in DHTML and probably better. The trick is knowing when to use that stuff…and more importantly, when not to.
Anything you can do in Java or Flash, you can do in DHTML and probably
better.
Anything?
Shecky–which applets did you see? The index one has a stationary center image with small,moving floats in it, and the Directory page has 3 images in a page flip. To me these are really quite simple applets that need no action on the part of the viewer—both of which I can neither see on the web or in my text editor now……..
Ok–maybe it’s sinking in that this is an OS problem but I thought Opera, Mozilla and Netscape (7?) were quite capable of seeing applets–as some viewers have told me. I wish those of you using these browsers would let me know.
I once tried downloading other browsers to check pages myself, but the downloads really corrupted my computer, took a lot of time to repair and though this is a good idea, I sure don’t want to get burned again.
Well, I’m thinking procedures again. I so enjoyed doing things a little differently—that’s the enjoyment of designing the pages in the first place, and avoiding monotony.
The index one has a stationary center image with small,moving floats
in i…
Yes. I see that and the "floats" move very fast.
… has 3 images in a page flip.
Yes. I see the page flips also.
Opera, Mozilla and Netscape (7?) were quite capable of seeing
applets…
If the plug-in is installed. Personally, I don’t have the Java machine installed on my default browser of preference: Firebird because I rather not see what are usually slow loading and annoying applets.
I once tried downloading other browsers to check pages myself, but the
downloads really corrupted my computer…
That’s odd.
I use Opera as my default and can see it fine. But I’m on cable modem and have lost perception on how long things take to load. I find moving things on a page to be a distraction from letting you concentrate on content. If I want to be entertained, I’ll go to the movies. None of my computers even have sound turned on.
Larry Berman
Shecky,
Yep. Nearly anything: transitions, animation (sprite, path, and frame), color fades, scrolling, sequences of actions…it gives access to the entire Windows GDI. I was amazed when I started digging into it. Of course, it requires making a dumbed-down version for non-IE browsers and like I said before, just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should.
Marie,
" but I thought Opera, Mozilla and Netscape (7?) were quite capable of seeing applets–as some viewers have told me. I wish those of you using these browsers would let me know. "
This depends on the user and if he installed Java with their browser. Some installers of Mozilla, Opera and Netsscape 6 (and higher) have the Sun Java installer as an option. But not allways.
Stuart:
Re: "You couldn’t be more wrong." Did you read at all what I posted, you repeated, in a more complete way, what I simply said.
Java applets and javascript are two different things. You won’t have any trouble using javascript and you probably won’t use JAVA anymore since many will not be able it view it!
ETC
I thought this was a Photoshop forum?
Java applets and javascript are two different things
Yes, and I don’t recall anyone using the term "javascript" in this thread yet. The terms "java" and "applets" however, have been used a good deal.
While it may have been contractually illegal for Microsoft to extend their JVM with the JFCs, the removal of Java from Windows and all Microsoft products was Sun’s fault. It is also the responsibility of the web designer to decide of the inclusion of technology will force users to download plug-ins to view the content.
It is in Sun’s best interest that Java be included with Windows. Standard Java–the one that MS contracted to use. Sun would still like Windows to include Java, but not one that has been Embraced, Extended, and Extinguished.
Don’t be a moron. Even Jeffrey Zeldman agrees that IE 5 and 6 are fairly up to date on web standards so you can use non-MS apps to write web pages for these browsers.
Way behind. Compare CSS1 and CSS2 standards with what these browsers support. The standards are Embraced, Extended and Extinguished, but more frequently ignored. For example, some MS sites have used uppercase keywords in CSS–because they know that their browsers support it, but standards-compliant browsers do not.
Hell, he even mentions in his book "designing with web standards" that IE 4 had some very cool CSS and DHTML technology that was standards compliant but no one knew what to do with it because it was the only browsers to support the stuff.
Non-standard extensions, especially platform-dependent kluges, are not likely to become part of any standard.
I really wish people would turn the color back on in their worlds. It’s not black and white, caveman mentality, "Microsoft bad, ughhhggg, everyone else good, ughhhggg". Microsoft may not be perfect but aren’t going to take the time to research and understand a topic, don’t comment on it. If you rely on others to do the research for you you will inevitably be perpetuating myths, half-truths and outright lies.
Ugh. A convicted predatory monopolist who uses monopoly power to eliminate competition and squash innovation–and is now being attacked by the States for ignoring the agreements they signed. Just because they give you free or cheap stuff where you go to school, doesn’t mean that they are in the least bit altruistic–they are trying to brainwash the next generation. By the tone of your posts, it looks like they are doing a good job.
"Sun would still like Windows to include Java, but not one that has been Embraced, Extended, and Extinguished."
I’m sure they would. Everyone wants to include their software in Windows. Luckily the DOJ hasn’t lost all its senses and tacked this onto the settlement. Sun should have made that the terms of the agreement for their first law suit against MS. Instead they said pull Java from all your applications. MS did just that but took a lot shorter time than Sun had anticipated. Boo fricking hoo. Cry me a river Sun.
"For example, some MS sites have used uppercase keywords in CSS–because they know that their browsers support it, but standards-compliant browsers do not."
So, IE is to blame for the way MS has implemented CSS on their site? Funny, lowercase CSS tags work just fine in IE too. Hmmmm, perhaps you’re pointing your finger in the wrong direction?
"Non-standard extensions, especially platform-dependent kluges, are not likely to become part of any standard."
These weren’t non-standard extensions or platform kludges, it was DHTML and CSS implemented according to the initial W3C recommendations. I suggest you read Jeffrey Zeldman’s book before you open your mouth again. He knows a bit more about W3C standards that you seem to. Thanks, I’ll believe him long before I believe you. By the way, Microsoft has been involved with shaping many of the current web standards. It also took a complete rewrite of Netscape to make it standards compliant. MS has done a great job without having to scrap everything.
"Just because they give you free or cheap stuff where you go to school, doesn’t mean that they are in the least bit altruistic–they are trying to brainwash the next generation. By the tone of your posts, it looks like they are doing a good job."
What gave you the impression that a) I am in school and b) Microsoft gives me cheap or free software? I have no problems with Windows simply because I have a brain and know how to use my computer. I have no problem with MS Office because it does what I need it to do. I have no problem with Microsoft because I have a life. You apparently have an axe to grind so don’t let me stop you but quit telling me how to think or assuming you know what’s best for me.
So, IE is to blame for the way MS has implemented CSS on their site? Funny, lowercase CSS tags work just fine in IE too. Hmmmm, perhaps you’re pointing your finger in the wrong direction?
Ow. That logic makes my brain hurt. Please make it stop.
I have no problem with Microsoft because I have a life.
I hope you enjoy your MSlife. Not that I would try to tell you what to do, but it would be nice if you would quit calling people names.
I’m sure they would. Everyone wants to include their software in Windows.
The difference is MS contracted to include Sun’s Java in windows.
"The difference is MS contracted to include Sun’s Java in windows."
No, Microsoft had an agreement with Sun so they could create their own JVM. I’m not saying the JFCs weren’t a violation of this agreement, I’m just pointing out that Sun filed suit to have Microsoft remove all Java from their OSes and applications. Beware of what you wish because it just might come true.
No, Microsoft had an agreement with Sun so they could create their own JVM.
This is just so far beyond duh.
That’s not what the contract said. The contract said to use the Java that was presented to them, which they could optimize only for platform-specific performance, but not change it to suit them. Sun has for many years known how MS works; they would not sign a contract that allowed MS to Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.
r_harvey,
Read what I wrote and tell me where I said MS was allowed to add their own extensions? I only said MS licensed Java to create their own JVM, hence the MSJVM that was included with damn near every piece of software they wrote, not Sun’s JVM. The only duh is you having problems with reading comprehension.
Peace guys— there’s pieces of truth in everyone’s opinion.
Sorry I got ya’ all riled up. Actually, I’ve cooled down a bit and I think I will still stay with what I’ve been doin for the last 4 years. I’m not using the javascript codes/applets to extremes–and I do want to be able to use them.
SunMicrosystems offered assistance if I wanted to call them. I will, and check out that plugin. There were lots of good thoughts here, and I do appreciate the comments. Getting used to a new OS sure has its ups and downs………….Thanks much…
Read what I wrote and tell me where I said MS was allowed to add their own extensions?
No thank you.
I guess you’re practicing revisionism (such as the truly ignorant statements in post #29), because you weren’t there when it all happened. Reading a couple of books and MS propaganda is not enough. Your opinion of yourself exceeds you.
I’ve seen your posts before. It’s fruitless and beneath me to debate with you. Go away, kid, you bother me.
"I’ve seen your posts before. It’s fruitless and beneath me to debate with you. Go away, kid, you bother me."
Because you can’t. Grow up kid.
For what it’s worth, Marie’s site comes up just fine with IE6 on this Win2K machine, (though I do have the Java plugin installed, so that’s not surprising).
As for all the side-arm blasting going on from Stuart McCoy et al, this is pointless fluffernutter. Most users who cruise the Web with any regularity will have run across websites that ask – or require – the user to install the Java plugin to be viewed properly, and (I’m going out on a limb here) most users will likely have done so, if they care about being able to view available content.
That said, a designer concerned with maximizing eyeballs will avoid adding content that requires the installation of a plugin. So it becomes a decision as to which is more important to the designer – adhering to Standards so as to maximize eyeballs or producing content for a more limited audience. As usual, it’s all about choices.
In the case of Marie’s site, we weren’t asked for a critique, but I have to say stripping the applets from the site would only improve it.
"I hope you enjoy your MSlife. Not that I would try to tell you what to do, but it would be nice if you would quit calling people names. "
So what do you run? A Mac, Linux? Tell us please.
Jezz, without these guys from Redmond you wouldn´t be here bitching about them ~rolleyes~
Don’t be a moron. Even Jeffrey Zeldman agrees that IE 5 and 6 are fairly up to date on web standards so you can use non-MS apps to write web pages for these browsers<
Ahhh! Finally found a way to take a swipe at me, eh? You get off on this crap, do you! Must be, for there can be no other reason for continual insults.
Someone asks a question indicates both an ignorance of the answer, and a willingness and effort to find an answer. Last time I looked, this is not indicative of moronic behavior. Moron means stupid, not ignorant.
I suspect you have been looking in a mirror lately.
Ornellas’s Law of "Hmm…" decrees:
Capital "H," two "m"s, ellipsis. No more, no less.
Unless you’re mo;)ed or crayoling… Then everything is possible.
Like has already been said. Java has its place but I don’t think it is on the web. I got to a site that have Java Applets and my opinion of the site and the designer just took a nose dive. As far as I am concerned I don’t see a single need for it on the web. It is slow, tacky and just about anything can be done without it.
This is something Sun hasn’t learned as far as Java for web use. They think Microsoft killed it for the web when it was the fact that it wasn’t really need for that application.
Just my 2 cents, FREE for today only!
Robert
Well I have to disagree with that. Flash most definately has it uses on the web. Of course that isn’t for rollovers, but Flash does do many things that DHTML and JavaScript can’t touch.
Just my 2 cents, FREE for today only!
Robert
