Let Printer Determine Colors – A Workflow

"Alan Smithee" wrote in message
news:t4qZe.547388>I print to an Epson R300 inkjet, but I’m guessing this applies to most Epson

printers…

My workflow before:

Color Settings: RGB Working space = Adobe 1998
Print With Preview: Color Handling set to = Let Photoshop Determine Colors Printer Profile selected as SPR300 Matte Paper -HW (for an Epson R300 printing on Epson HW Matte with Epson inks)
Rendering Intent: Relative Colormetric
In the Print driver dialogue I would select "ICM" with "no color adjustment"
and then select the same paper settings, set my resolution etc.

You should either have Photoshop determine the colors, or the printer driver, but not both, as you describe here.

With the above workflow my prints invariably turned out bad: highlights were
way too bright. So I investigated turning on Soft Proofing and creating a soft proof profile which did indeed foretell of bad print in the offing. What the heck. Ok, so I create a Curve adjustment layer (as suggested previously by Bill) to try and compensate for the discrepancy. I had to drag
my white point to the 40 per cent grey mark to make the print look normal!!!
(and yes I do know how to set levels).

I had been led to believe that "Let Photoshop Determine Colors" was the way
to go when you’re outputting to an Inkjet by several sources. No way I say.

My new workflow:

Color Settings: RGB Working space = Adobe 1998
Print With Preview: Color Handling set to = Let Printer Determine Colors Printer Profile is Grey’ed out.
Rendering Intent: Relative Colormetric

[click] into the printer driver dialogue…."Properties"
Select ICM again but make sure "no color adjustment" is cleared. Match your paper type drop down (important), in my case "Epson Matte Paper Heavy Weight"
Select a desired resolution and any minor dialogue adjustments and viola. My
prints coming out of the printer finally match what I see on my monitor (calibrated). Why was that so hard? Where did I learn this. From the CS2 Help File in Color Managing Documents.

My question is…why didn’t my first workflow work. In principle was it not
doing the exact same thing just at a different stage. Something’s not right
with it but I haven’t the foggiest. Any suggestions or alternate workflows appreciated. Thx. I’ve got to go now I’ve got about a 1000 photos to print…

Your first setup ":double profiled" your printer because you told Photoshop to convert the printer colors to the printer profile, as well as the printer driver. Do one or the other, but not both. Your second setup does not have this problem.
—
Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com

On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 09:34:57 GMT, "Mike Russell" wrote:

"Alan Smithee" wrote in message
news:t4qZe.547388>I print to an Epson R300 inkjet, but I’m guessing this applies to most Epson

printers…

My workflow before:

Color Settings: RGB Working space = Adobe 1998
Print With Preview: Color Handling set to = Let Photoshop Determine Colors Printer Profile selected as SPR300 Matte Paper -HW (for an Epson R300 printing on Epson HW Matte with Epson inks)
Rendering Intent: Relative Colormetric
In the Print driver dialogue I would select "ICM" with "no color adjustment"
and then select the same paper settings, set my resolution etc.

You should either have Photoshop determine the colors, or the printer driver, but not both, as you describe here.

Your first setup ":double profiled" your printer because you told Photoshop to convert the printer colors to the printer profile, as well as the printer driver. Do one or the other, but not both. Your second setup does not have this problem.

Mike, can you explain this a bit more? Seems to me Alan has "turned on " PS [Let PS determine colors"] and "turned off" the printer driver
[ICM and no colour adjustment off]. So how has he "double profiled"
things?

Thanks, Alan Walker.

Mike Russell wrote:

"Alan Smithee" wrote in message
news:t4qZe.547388>I print to an Epson R300 inkjet, but I’m guessing this applies to most Epson

printers…

My workflow before:

Color Settings: RGB Working space = Adobe 1998
Print With Preview: Color Handling set to = Let Photoshop Determine Colors Printer Profile selected as SPR300 Matte Paper -HW (for an Epson R300 printing on Epson HW Matte with Epson inks)
Rendering Intent: Relative Colormetric
In the Print driver dialogue I would select "ICM" with "no color adjustment"
and then select the same paper settings, set my resolution etc.

You should either have Photoshop determine the colors, or the printer driver, but not both, as you describe here.

Yes I’m letting Photoshop determine the colors here — I’m turning ICM "OFF"! When you set the "Photoshop Determine Colors" option you HAVE too set a profile in the "Printer Profile" dialogue.

With the above workflow my prints invariably turned out bad: highlights were
way too bright. So I investigated turning on Soft Proofing and creating a soft proof profile which did indeed foretell of bad print in the offing. What the heck. Ok, so I create a Curve adjustment layer (as suggested previously by Bill) to try and compensate for the discrepancy. I had to drag
my white point to the 40 per cent grey mark to make the print look normal!!!
(and yes I do know how to set levels).

I had been led to believe that "Let Photoshop Determine Colors" was the way
to go when you’re outputting to an Inkjet by several sources. No way I say.

My new workflow:

Color Settings: RGB Working space = Adobe 1998
Print With Preview: Color Handling set to = Let Printer Determine Colors Printer Profile is Grey’ed out.
Rendering Intent: Relative Colormetric

[click] into the printer driver dialogue…."Properties"
Select ICM again but make sure "no color adjustment" is cleared. Match your paper type drop down (important), in my case "Epson Matte Paper Heavy Weight"
Select a desired resolution and any minor dialogue adjustments and viola. My
prints coming out of the printer finally match what I see on my monitor (calibrated). Why was that so hard? Where did I learn this. From the CS2 Help File in Color Managing Documents.

My question is…why didn’t my first workflow work. In principle was it not
doing the exact same thing just at a different stage. Something’s not right
with it but I haven’t the foggiest. Any suggestions or alternate workflows appreciated. Thx. I’ve got to go now I’ve got about a 1000 photos to print…

Your first setup ":double profiled" your printer because you told Photoshop to convert the printer colors to the printer profile, as well as the printer driver. Do one or the other, but not both. Your second setup does not have this problem.

More details. You’re seeing something I’m not, I never used the "Convert Profile" command in the workflow. Thx.

got a server time-out error when I tried to post this so I’m re-posting …. sorry if it appears twice …

Alan Smithee writes …

I print to an Epson R300 inkjet …
My workflow before:
Print With Preview: Color Handling set to = Let Photoshop Determine Colors
Printer Profile selected as SPR300 Matte Paper -HW
In the Print driver dialogue I would select "ICM" with "no color adjustment" With the above workflow my prints invariably turned out bad: highlights were way too bright …

My new workflow:
Print With Preview: Color Handling set to = Let Printer Determine Colors Select ICM again but make sure "no color adjustment" is cleared … My prints coming out of the printer finally match what I see on my monitor
My question is…why didn’t my first workflow work.

First, here’s what’s going on under the hood … the numbers in the file are translated into different numbers for the printer driver, basically the .ICM or .ICC file is a giant look-up table and either Epson or Photoshop is doing the translation … most of the consumer Epsons have bundled the ICM profiles in one file so when you do option # 2 (let the printer handle the translation) the driver software looks at the paper type you selected and matches this to the right profile. This is working for you right now.

The professional Epson printers, and increasingly more of the high-end consumer Epson printers like the 2200 etc, also provide the ICM profiles as separate files so you can a) soft proof accurately using them and b) let Photoshop do the numeric translation. In theory you should get very similar results if the unbundled profiles are the same as those in the bundled file, in theory slightly better results since even Epson says Photoshop color management does a better job than Epson color management (the software that does the translation) or at least that’s what Epson says for my Epson 4000.

So it seems likely to me that either your SPR300 Matte Paper -HW profile is totally hosed (which I doubt) or that you are somehow not telling the printer software what it needs to hear to get the translation done right. I’ve never used a R300 so don’t know what the driver interface looks like … right now I have a 1280, 2200 and 4000 Epsons in the office and every one of them has a slightly different set of commands for getting Photoshop to handle the ICM translation so I’m pretty sure the R-300 is different, but I can give you a sample flow for the 2200 or 4000 and you can figure out something similar for the R-300.

BTW Mike Russell wrote you had "double profiled" the printer (ie, let Photoshop and then the printer driver both apply the translation) … on the Epsons I’ve used this means you get a heavy magenta cast (yes, I’ve seen it first hand 🙂 and since you don’t have this I’m guessing that’s not your problem, though I’m not familar with the R-300 inks so it’s possible. For sure with the 1280 dye inks and the 2200/4000 Ultrachrome pigment inks you see magenta when you screw up.

At any rate, here’s what I do to print accurately with your first flow with a 4000 and a 2200 using CS (I’m printing 29 large prints right now purchased by a hospital so this works for sure 🙂 … I think there are two spots where you might be going wrong (or at least where I’ve gone wrong while learning this flow) and I’ll flag them ….

View > Proof Setup (I’ll pick Pro4000_Ehn_Matte) … you can try both rel col and perceptual rendering intents and either check or uncheck ‘simulate: paper white’ … I think you are already doing this step …

File > Print with Preview and click ‘show more options’ … there are at least three ways to do this part that work so here’s just one but this one works … for ‘source space’ select ‘proof’ and the ‘proof setup’ should show as profile I’m soft proofing to. Under ‘print space’ make sure you now show the same profile and rendering intent … you have to select this manually and I’d guess this may be the first spot to run into problems, if you have something else selected the translation will go bad.

OK, now go thru the Page setup – printer – properties steps to access the printer driver and set up for the right paper type, resolution, etc …. unfortunately selecting the right ICC options is different for each printer driver and I don’t know yours, but here’s the commands for the 4000 and 2200 … you need to find the similar ones for the R-300 …

for the 4000 check custom – advanced and in the ‘printer color management’ box there’s a radio button for ICM (which will use the Epson internal files) and one for ‘off (no color adjustment)’, which is the one to pick (there are three other buttons but this is the one to choose). This means the printer driver will NOT do any numeric translation, it’s all done by Photoshop.

for the 2200 it’s different, the ‘color management’ box has three choices instead of five and the one you want is ‘ICM’ … choosing this brings up another box for ‘icc profile’ and here you choose ‘no color adjustment’ instead of ‘applied by printer software’.

That’s pretty much it, except when you work your way back to the initial ‘print with preview’ window you should double-check that the ‘print space profile’ still matches the ‘source space – proof’ profile since it has a tendency to reset to the default.

Anyway, if you can find the comparable commands on the R-300 driver and if your profile is accurate then you should be able to get at least as good a match as your flow # 2, probably slightly better.

Bill

Alan writes …

Print With Preview: Color Handling set to = Let Photoshop Determine Colors

Can you be more specific on exactly how you’re setting up this step … I don’t have an option for "Let Photoshop Determine Colors" in the CS Print with Preview command (is it new with CS2?) … maybe this is where the problem with your first flow occurs? I think you’d still need a source and destination profile setup …

Bill

"Alan Smithee" wrote in message

I print to an Epson R300 inkjet, but I’m guessing this applies to most Epson
printers…

My workflow before:

Color Settings: RGB Working space = Adobe 1998
Print With Preview: Color Handling set to = Let Photoshop Determine Colors Printer Profile selected as SPR300 Matte Paper -HW (for an Epson R300 printing on Epson HW Matte with Epson inks)
Rendering Intent: Relative Colormetric
In the Print driver dialogue I would select "ICM" with "no color adjustment"
and then select the same paper settings, set my resolution etc.
With the above workflow my prints invariably turned out bad: highlights were
way too bright. So I investigated turning on Soft Proofing and creating a soft proof profile which did indeed foretell of bad print in the offing. What the heck. Ok, so I create a Curve adjustment layer (as suggested previously by Bill) to try and compensate for the discrepancy. I had to drag
my white point to the 40 per cent grey mark to make the print look normal!!!
(and yes I do know how to set levels).

I had been led to believe that "Let Photoshop Determine Colors" was the way
to go when you’re outputting to an Inkjet by several sources. No way I say.

My new workflow:

Color Settings: RGB Working space = Adobe 1998
Print With Preview: Color Handling set to = Let Printer Determine Colors Printer Profile is Grey’ed out.
Rendering Intent: Relative Colormetric

[click] into the printer driver dialogue…."Properties"
Select ICM again but make sure "no color adjustment" is cleared. Match your paper type drop down (important), in my case "Epson Matte Paper Heavy Weight"
Select a desired resolution and any minor dialogue adjustments and viola. My
prints coming out of the printer finally match what I see on my monitor (calibrated). Why was that so hard? Where did I learn this. From the CS2 Help File in Color Managing Documents.

My question is…why didn’t my first workflow work. In principle was it not
doing the exact same thing just at a different stage. Something’s not right
with it but I haven’t the foggiest. Any suggestions or alternate workflows appreciated. Thx. I’ve got to go now I’ve got about a 1000 photos to print…

I am using Epson drivers (1270) and in my interface when you choose "no color management" all other options grey out, if I select ICM the others grey out. If ICM is the windows system for telling the printer the color how could it be "no color adjustment". How can you have chosen both?

I am using ICM management as this prints closer to what I see on screen by FAR than allowing Adobe to control the colors, Whenever I have used profiles other than Srgb or Adobe RGB I get images that look nothing like what PS is showing. I don’t want to have to open PS every time I want to print, this way the images match the Windows and other program displays. It is sort of backwards color management. Match PS profile to the windows image and then the prints will match too.

Bill Hilton wrote:

Alan writes …

Print With Preview: Color Handling set to = Let Photoshop Determine Colors

Can you be more specific on exactly how you’re setting up this step … I don’t have an option for "Let Photoshop Determine Colors" in the CS Print with Preview command (is it new with CS2?) … maybe this is where the problem with your first flow occurs? I think you’d still need a source and destination profile setup …

You do, but in CS and earlier it was just called differently. In CS this option is activated if you do *NOT* select ‘Printer color management’ as the ‘Profile’ of your ‘Print Space’. Select anything else and you have the same setting as the ‘Let Photoshop Determine Colors’ option in CS2.

—
Johan W. Elzenga johan<<at>>johanfoto.nl Editor / Photographer http://www.johanfoto.nl/

"Alan Walker" wrote in message >>"Alan Smithee" wrote in message
….

Color Settings: RGB Working space = Adobe 1998
Print With Preview: Color Handling set to = Let Photoshop Determine Colors
Printer Profile selected as SPR300 Matte Paper -HW (for an Epson R300 printing on Epson HW Matte with Epson inks)
Rendering Intent: Relative Colormetric
In the Print driver dialogue I would select "ICM" with "no color adjustment"
and then select the same paper settings, set my resolution etc.

….

Mike, can you explain this a bit more? Seems to me Alan has "turned on " PS [Let PS determine colors"] and "turned off" the printer driver
[ICM and no colour adjustment off]. So how has he "double profiled"
things?

Hi Alan,

ICM also means use a profile.

In the scenario above, Photoshop is configured to use the printer profile. The printer is set to "ICM", which causes the printer driver to do a second application of the profile. As a result, Photoshop will translate the colors, pass it on to the printer driver, which will then apply the ICM profile again (or a different profile).

This is a classic instance of double profiling, and it’s one of the more common errors. What is unusual is for the person reporting the problem to do so as thoroughly and accurately as Alan has. This makes the problem much easier to track down. Kudos to Alan.

As Bill Hilton says, for Epsons this generally results in a magenta cast to the image, in part because many of the free Epson profiles dump unnecessary red into the shadows, but this need not always be the case. —

Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com

"Alan Smithee" wrote in message
….

Color Settings: RGB Working space = Adobe 1998
Print With Preview: Color Handling set to = Let Photoshop Determine Colors Printer Profile selected as SPR300 Matte Paper -HW (for an Epson R300 printing on Epson HW Matte with Epson inks)
Rendering Intent: Relative Colormetric
In the Print driver dialogue I would select "ICM" with "no color adjustment"
and then select the same paper settings, set my resolution etc.

Yes I’m letting Photoshop determine the colors here — I’m turning ICM "OFF"! When you set the "Photoshop Determine Colors" option you HAVE too set
a profile in the "Printer Profile" dialogue.

If I read your description correctly, Photoshop is determining the colors by converting them to the Matte profile. The printer driver is also converting using "ICM", which uses the profile configured under the color tab for your printer properties in windows.
—

Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com

Mike Russell wrote:

"Alan Smithee" wrote in message
…

Color Settings: RGB Working space = Adobe 1998
Print With Preview: Color Handling set to = Let Photoshop Determine Colors Printer Profile selected as SPR300 Matte Paper -HW (for an Epson R300 printing on Epson HW Matte with Epson inks)
Rendering Intent: Relative Colormetric
In the Print driver dialogue I would select "ICM" with "no color adjustment"
and then select the same paper settings, set my resolution etc.

Yes I’m letting Photoshop determine the colors here — I’m turning ICM "OFF"! When you set the "Photoshop Determine Colors" option you HAVE too set
a profile in the "Printer Profile" dialogue.

If I read your description correctly, Photoshop is determining the colors by converting them to the Matte profile. The printer driver is also converting using "ICM", which uses the profile configured under the color tab for your printer properties in windows.

Yes but I’ve also selected "No Color Adjustment" when I choose ICM — should this not prevent the ICM selection from doing what it appears to be doing?

"Alan Smithee" wrote in message news:XGIZe.263713. ….

Yes but I’ve also selected "No Color Adjustment" when I choose ICM — should
this not prevent the ICM selection from doing what it appears to be doing?

You’re welcome. Although my printer driver is Epson, it’s for a different model and I can’t see this exact setting on my system. Perhaps someone else can be more helpful.
—
Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com

Bill Hilton wrote:

[snip]

View > Proof Setup (I’ll pick Pro4000_Ehn_Matte) … you can try both rel col and perceptual rendering intents and either check or uncheck ‘simulate: paper white’ … I think you are already doing this step …

Paper white simulation only affects how the look of a soft proof, but does not affect the look of a print. Black Point Compensation affects the looks of both a soft proof and the print.

"Mike Russell" wrote in message

"Alan Smithee" wrote in message news:XGIZe.263713. …

Yes but I’ve also selected "No Color Adjustment" when I choose ICM — should
this not prevent the ICM selection from doing what it appears to be

doing?

You’re welcome. Although my printer driver is Epson, it’s for a different model and I can’t see this exact setting on my system. Perhaps someone

else

can be more helpful.
—
Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com

A-a-a-a-nd…Thank you. ;^). In older printers I believe one had to select "Color Controls" and then select the "No Color Adjustment" option or on some printers there was a "No Color Adjust" radio button I think my Photo700 had it that way. Now there are only three settings in the Epson Driver. 1."Color Controls" mode allows you to "manually" adjust the driver in "Standard" or "Vivid" settings. 2. PhotoEnhance mode as near as I can tell is for cleaning up video grabs. Finally, 3. ICM mode which is to allow the use of profiles within an application (read: Photoshop). The only option in ICM mode is the ability to toggle "No Color Adjustment" either on or off. The choices are rather limited. Epson recommends not using the "no color adjust" in their help file because it turns off all control from the print driver.
[sic]
"This setting is generally not recommended, because it does not allow the printer driver to enhance or adjust the color in any way. Only use this setting when you create a new color profile or if the other Mode settings do not produce satisfactory results."

So with ICM selected as the mode, and "No Color Adjustment" selected as the only option, Photoshop is suppose to be able to pump sunshine right to the printer because it’s already determined the colors from the profile. So why doesn’t it work in all cases is the question?