Sharpening

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Mon, 03 October 2005 14:26 Go to next message
Colonel Blip (Photoshop expert)
Hello, All!

As I understand it, sharpening should always be the last step in workflow.
When one has a psd file with several layers, should it be flattened and then
sharpened or is there a preferred way while keeping the layers intact?

Thanks,
Colonel Blip.
E-mail: colonelblip.no.spam.please@bigfoot.com



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Mon, 03 October 2005 16:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Hyndman (Photoshop expert)
I don't bother so much with the sharpening filters, maybe the unsharp mask,
on occasion. I find that with the sort of images I tend to work
with(restoration), the High pass filter gives better results.
Copy a layer above your main image layer and apply the HP filter to it.
Enlarge a part of the image, say the eye and then adjust the radius slider
to achieve the desired result. You can then also experiment with different
layer blending modes as well.
I haven't noticed any difference in flattening before this application.
HTH
MH

"Colonel Blip" <colonelblip.no.spam.please@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:1128364192_40555@spool6-east.superfeed.net...
> Hello, All!
>
> As I understand it, sharpening should always be the last step in workflow.
> When one has a psd file with several layers, should it be flattened and
> then sharpened or is there a preferred way while keeping the layers
> intact?
>
> Thanks,
> Colonel Blip.
> E-mail: colonelblip.no.spam.please@bigfoot.com
>
>
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> News==----
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> Newsgroups
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Mon, 03 October 2005 16:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dave Du Plessis (Advanced Photoshop user)
On Mon, 3 Oct 2005 13:26:50 -0500, "Colonel Blip"
<colonelblip.no.spam.please@bigfoot.com> wrote:

>Hello, All!
>
>As I understand it, sharpening should always be the last step in workflow.
>When one has a psd file with several layers, should it be flattened and then
>sharpened or is there a preferred way while keeping the layers intact?
>
>Thanks,
>Colonel Blip.
>E-mail: colonelblip.no.spam.please@bigfoot.com
>
>
>
>----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
>http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
>----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----


Hello Blip

Some people like doing a bit of sharpening during the process
and finnish off with the final sharpening. I only sharpen as
the very last function.
Not that it matters, but what do you use; smart sharpening
or unsharp mask?

Dave
Mon, 03 October 2005 17:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Colonel Blip (Photoshop expert)
Hello, DD!
You wrote on Mon, 03 Oct 2005 22:20:58 +0200:

I normally would use either Unsharp mask or Smart Sharpen, but I don't know
where to apply it when I have 7 layers stacked on top of a background. Do I
add another layer of some sort and do it there or flatten and do the
resulting image.

Thanks,

Colonel Blip.
E-mail: colonelblip.no.spam.please@bigfoot.com

D> On Mon, 3 Oct 2005 13:26:50 -0500, "Colonel Blip"
D> <colonelblip.no.spam.please@bigfoot.com> wrote:

D> Hello Blip

D> Some people like doing a bit of sharpening during the process
D> and finnish off with the final sharpening. I only sharpen as
D> the very last function.
D> Not that it matters, but what do you use; smart sharpening
D> or unsharp mask?

D> Dave



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Mon, 03 October 2005 17:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Colonel Blip (Photoshop expert)
Hello, Mike!
You wrote on Mon, 3 Oct 2005 21:02:09 +0100:

I just saw one tutorial on HP filter so I may play with that. But at this
stage (being a newbie, particularly using layers), I'm still wanting to know
if one needs to flatten the image to apply an USM or add a layer above
everything and then do USM?

Thanks,

Colonel Blip.
E-mail: colonelblip.no.spam.please@bigfoot.com

MH> I don't bother so much with the sharpening filters, maybe the unsharp
MH> mask, on occasion. I find that with the sort of images I tend to work
MH> with(restoration), the High pass filter gives better results.
MH> Copy a layer above your main image layer and apply the HP filter to it.
MH> Enlarge a part of the image, say the eye and then adjust the radius
MH> slider to achieve the desired result. You can then also experiment with
MH> different layer blending modes as well.
MH> I haven't noticed any difference in flattening before this application.
MH> HTH
MH> MH

MH> "Colonel Blip" <colonelblip.no.spam.please@bigfoot.com> wrote in
MH> message news:1128364192_40555@spool6-east.superfeed.net...
??>> Hello, All!



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Mon, 03 October 2005 18:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dave Du Plessis (Advanced Photoshop user)
On Mon, 3 Oct 2005 16:19:08 -0500, "Colonel Blip"
<colonelblip.no.spam.please@bigfoot.com> wrote:

>Hello, DD!
>You wrote on Mon, 03 Oct 2005 22:20:58 +0200:
>
>I normally would use either Unsharp mask or Smart Sharpen, but I don't know
>where to apply it when I have 7 layers stacked on top of a background. Do I
>add another layer of some sort and do it there or flatten and do the
>resulting image.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Colonel Blip.
>E-mail: colonelblip.no.spam.please@bigfoot.com
>
> D> On Mon, 3 Oct 2005 13:26:50 -0500, "Colonel Blip"
> D> <colonelblip.no.spam.please@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
> D> Hello Blip
>
> D> Some people like doing a bit of sharpening during the process
> D> and finnish off with the final sharpening. I only sharpen as
> D> the very last function.
> D> Not that it matters, but what do you use; smart sharpening
> D> or unsharp mask?
>
> D> Dave
>
>
>


I would have flatten it first:-)
In fact, that is what I do, that is why I say that
that is the very last thing I do.
Past weeks I have changed over working in RAW
and then, after the processing, I save it sharpened.

It is obvious that, if you open the JPG again for
alterations or add-ons, it become softer again after
some work is done on it, and I simply sharpen it again.

Reason for my last question is because I am still working
on the 'Unsharp Mask' because it seem to be more simple
than 'Smart Sharpenening', which on its turn, is in reviews
described as (maybe) the better solution.

It is midnight over here, going into the morning hours,
so I'll see you's in the comming evening.

Dave
Mon, 03 October 2005 18:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flo Nelson (Photoshop expert)
"Colonel Blip" <colonelblip.no.spam.please@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:1128377946_40909@spool6-east.superfeed.net...
>
> CB> As I understand it, sharpening should always be the last step in
> CB> workflow. When one has a psd file with several layers, should it be
> CB> flattened and then sharpened or is there a preferred way while keeping
> CB> the layers intact?
>

I create a new layer at top, hold down alt on the PC, then go to Layer >
Merge Visible. This creates a flattened layer but leaves the original layers
intact. I then sharpen that layer. That's the last step in my process.

Flo
Mon, 03 October 2005 20:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Colonel Blip (Photoshop expert)
Hello, Flo!
You wrote on Mon, 03 Oct 2005 22:41:52 GMT:

I see.

Thanks,

Colonel Blip.
E-mail: colonelblip.no.spam.please@bigfoot.com


FN> "Colonel Blip" <colonelblip.no.spam.please@bigfoot.com> wrote in
FN> message news:1128377946_40909@spool6-east.superfeed.net...
??>>
FN> I create a new layer at top, hold down alt on the PC, then go to Layer

FN> layers intact. I then sharpen that layer. That's the last step in my
FN> process.

FN> Flo



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Mon, 03 October 2005 20:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
patrick (Photoshop expert)
An advantage of shapening on a separate layer is that you cana then use the
layer mask to mask out the sharpening effect on select areas, e.g.
complexion areas (where you don't want to sharpen blemishes or skin pores),
background (which you want relatively blurred), etc.

Good luck! . . . . patrick
"Colonel Blip" <colonelblip.no.spam.please@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:1128385836_41391@spool6-east.superfeed.net...
> Hello, Flo!
> You wrote on Mon, 03 Oct 2005 22:41:52 GMT:
>
> I see.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Colonel Blip.
> E-mail: colonelblip.no.spam.please@bigfoot.com
>
>
> FN> "Colonel Blip" <colonelblip.no.spam.please@bigfoot.com> wrote in
> FN> message news:1128377946_40909@spool6-east.superfeed.net...
> ??>>
> FN> I create a new layer at top, hold down alt on the PC, then go to Layer
>
> FN> layers intact. I then sharpen that layer. That's the last step in my
> FN> process.
>
> FN> Flo
>
>
>
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> News==----
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> Newsgroups
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Mon, 03 October 2005 21:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Colonel Blip (Photoshop expert)
Hello, patrick!
You wrote on Tue, 04 Oct 2005 00:34:47 GMT:

What I was missing was the alt key to merge visible w/o flattening the
image. Now that I know that I can see all kinds of possibilities. Keeping
all of the alt, cntrl, shift and combination keys straight is a mind-blower
when I've only had PS about 2 weeks now.

Thanks,

Colonel Blip.
E-mail: colonelblip.no.spam.please@bigfoot.com

p> An advantage of shapening on a separate layer is that you cana then use
p> the layer mask to mask out the sharpening effect on select areas, e.g.
p> complexion areas (where you don't want to sharpen blemishes or skin
p> pores), background (which you want relatively blurred), etc.

p> Good luck! . . . . patrick
p> "Colonel Blip" <colonelblip.no.spam.please@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
p> news:1128385836_41391@spool6-east.superfeed.net...
??>> Hello, Flo!



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Mon, 03 October 2005 22:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.golner (Advanced Photoshop user)
Colonel Blip wrote:
> Hello, All!
>
> As I understand it, sharpening should always be the last step in workflow.
> When one has a psd file with several layers, should it be flattened and then
> sharpened or is there a preferred way while keeping the layers intact?
>
> Thanks,
> Colonel Blip.
> E-mail: colonelblip.no.spam.please@bigfoot.com
>
>
>
> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Here's a link with one man's opinion. He's generally highly regarded in
the field.

creativepro.com - Out of Gamut: Thoughts on a Sharpening Workflow
http://www.creativepro.com/story/feature/20357.html
by Bruce Fraser
Tue, 04 October 2005 13:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
KatWoman (Photoshop expert)
"Colonel Blip" <colonelblip.no.spam.please@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:1128391278_41465@spool6-east.superfeed.net...
> Hello, patrick!
> You wrote on Tue, 04 Oct 2005 00:34:47 GMT:
>
> What I was missing was the alt key to merge visible w/o flattening the
> image. Now that I know that I can see all kinds of possibilities. Keeping
> all of the alt, cntrl, shift and combination keys straight is a
> mind-blower when I've only had PS about 2 weeks now.

you can always use the menus, (which have reminders of the shortcuts)
Select all> edit>copy merged>paste
>
> Thanks,
>
> Colonel Blip.
> E-mail: colonelblip.no.spam.please@bigfoot.com
>
> p> An advantage of shapening on a separate layer is that you cana then use
> p> the layer mask to mask out the sharpening effect on select areas, e.g.
> p> complexion areas (where you don't want to sharpen blemishes or skin
> p> pores), background (which you want relatively blurred), etc.
>
> p> Good luck! . . . . patrick
> p> "Colonel Blip" <colonelblip.no.spam.please@bigfoot.com> wrote in
> message
> p> news:1128385836_41391@spool6-east.superfeed.net...
> ??>> Hello, Flo!
>
>
> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
> News==----
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> Newsgroups
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Tue, 04 October 2005 15:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dave Du Plessis (Advanced Photoshop user)
On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 22:41:52 GMT, "Flo Nelson"
<flojnel@anamidesignsCUTTHIS.com> wrote:

>
>"Colonel Blip" <colonelblip.no.spam.please@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
>news:1128377946_40909@spool6-east.superfeed.net...
>>
>> CB> As I understand it, sharpening should always be the last step in
>> CB> workflow. When one has a psd file with several layers, should it be
>> CB> flattened and then sharpened or is there a preferred way while keeping
>> CB> the layers intact?
>>
>
>I create a new layer at top, hold down alt on the PC, then go to Layer >
>Merge Visible. This creates a flattened layer but leaves the original layers
>intact. I then sharpen that layer. That's the last step in my process.
>
>Flo
>
>


thanx Flo; I tested it
and
made it a new standard pactise:-)

Dave
Tue, 04 October 2005 15:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
orljustin (Photoshop begginer)
Colonel Blip wrote:
> Hello, All!
>
> As I understand it, sharpening should always be the last step in workflow.
> When one has a psd file with several layers, should it be flattened and then
> sharpened or is there a preferred way while keeping the layers intact?
>
> Thanks,
> Colonel Blip.
> E-mail: colonelblip.no.spam.please@bigfoot.com
>
>

Hi,

The first thing I do after opening the RAW file is to duplicate the
original layer, and then unsharpMask that layer. This way, I can add
other layers with masks to enhance or tone down the effect in parts of
the image. This way, I don't end up with a suprise at the end from
unnoticed skin blemishes or other things.

oj
Tue, 04 October 2005 18:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bart van der Wolf (Photoshop expert)
"Flo Nelson" <flojnel@anamidesignsCUTTHIS.com> wrote in message
news:Qsi0f.104891$3S5.99156@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
SNIP
> Create a new layer at top, hold down alt on the PC, then go to Layer
> Merge Visible. This creates a flattened layer but leaves the
> original layers intact. I then sharpen that layer.
SNIP

Yes, that'll allow to maintain the (adjustable) layers structure.
However, turning that merged sharpening layer into Luminance Blending
mode will also avoid chrominance aberrations.

Bart
Tue, 04 October 2005 20:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Walter Donavan (Photoshop expert)
Let me preface this by saying that although I have used PS versions 5-7 (I
currently use 7), I still don't fully understand the pgm. I don't think I
ever will.

***

To me, sharpening is hit and miss. I tend to use Sharpen Edges first because
I get generally good results with it. After that I tend to use Unsharp Mask,
experimenting with various Amount % settings between 25% and 75-100%.

I leave the Radius at 1.0 and the Threshold at 0, repeatedly clicking the
Preview to see what effect my proposed changes to the Amount % are having.
This clicking has saved me many times from over-sharpening, because I can
more readily see the over-sharpened artifacts when I keep clicking the
preview. (My vision is not good.)

I may on occasion use both Sharpen Edges and Unsharp Mask, or just Unsharp
Mask. Depends on my intuition, the phase of the moon, etc. :) I don't use
Sharpen or Sharpen More: they just don't work for me. They also seem too
crude.

Generally I find, using my hit-and-miss techniques, that most images won't
accept much sharpening before I start seeing artifacts. Since I consider a
slightly fuzzy image preferable to one with any artifacts, I stop at the
first sign of artifacts. I also consider a subtle improvement, perhaps
nearly unnoticeable, acceptable.

Another technique I apply (rarely) to images that *already* have artifacts
is to apply a tiny amount of Gaussian Blur and *then* sharpen the image.
That can rescue a few (unfortunately only a few) images.

When I sharpen, I pay close attention to the eyes and the individual loose
hairs on the head. (Most of my work is with images of women.) If the woman
is nude, the nipples also make excellent sharpening targets.

If I am involved with layers, which is but rarely, I will copy the image,
flatten it (or select a group of layers), and sharpen away. That way I won't
mess with the original.

As is generally taught, I do all the other stuff first, and sharpen last.

Walterius,
Old, and still sharpening in Fort Lauderdale.
Self-taught (books, mainly), but I produce high-quality images that I like.
Tue, 04 October 2005 20:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Walter Donavan (Photoshop expert)
Let me preface this by saying that although I have used PS versions 5-7 (I
currently use 7), I still don't fully understand the pgm. I don't think I
ever will.

***

To me, sharpening is hit and miss. I tend to use Sharpen Edges first because
I get generally good results with it. After that I tend to use Unsharp Mask,
experimenting with various Amount % settings between 25% and 75-100%.

I leave the Radius at 1.0 and the Threshold at 0, repeatedly clicking the
Preview to see what effect my proposed changes to the Amount % are having.
This clicking has saved me many times from over-sharpening, because I can
more readily see the over-sharpened artifacts when I keep clicking the
preview. (My vision is not good.)

I may on occasion use both Sharpen Edges and Unsharp Mask, or just Unsharp
Mask. Depends on my intuition, the phase of the moon, etc. :) I don't use
Sharpen or Sharpen More: they just don't work for me. They also seem too
crude.

Generally I find, using my hit-and-miss techniques, that most images won't
accept much sharpening before I start seeing artifacts. Since I consider a
slightly fuzzy image preferable to one with any artifacts, I stop at the
first sign of artifacts. I also consider a subtle improvement, perhaps
nearly unnoticeable, acceptable.

Another technique I apply (rarely) to images that *already* have artifacts
is to apply a tiny amount of Gaussian Blur and *then* sharpen the image.
That can rescue a few (unfortunately only a few) images.

When I sharpen, I pay close attention to the eyes and the individual loose
hairs on the head. (Most of my work is with images of women.) If the woman
is nude, the nipples also make excellent sharpening targets.

If I am involved with layers, which is but rarely, I will copy the image,
flatten it (or select a group of layers), and sharpen away. That way I won't
mess with the original.

As is generally taught, I do all the other stuff first, and sharpen last.

Walterius,
Old, and still sharpening in Fort Lauderdale.
Self-taught (books, mainly), but I produce high-quality images that I like.
Wed, 05 October 2005 05:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Walter Donavan (Photoshop expert)
Sorry for the accidental double post.
Wed, 05 October 2005 09:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JJSrock (Photoshop begginer)
Bart van der Wolf wrote:
>
> "Flo Nelson" <flojnel@anamidesignsCUTTHIS.com> wrote in message
> news:Qsi0f.104891$3S5.99156@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> SNIP
> > Create a new layer at top, hold down alt on the PC, then go to Layer
> > Merge Visible. This creates a flattened layer but leaves the
> > original layers intact. I then sharpen that layer.
> SNIP
>
> Yes, that'll allow to maintain the (adjustable) layers structure.
> However, turning that merged sharpening layer into Luminance Blending
> mode will also avoid chrominance aberrations.
>
> Bart

Yes, I also create such a layer for sharpening. Yes, I also use
Luminance Blending, or Fade to Luminosity after USM. However, I find
this method comes with its costs:

1. creating such a layer significantly increases the file size.
2. once this layer is sharpened, by USM, e.g., and saved, you cannot
reopen the file and change the USM values. IOW, this layer does not act
like a regular adjustment layer.
3. unlike a regular adjustment layer, you need to manually keep record
of the sharpening values.
4. after sharpening such a layer, if you change any underlying layers,
you'll need to delete this layer and start over again.

Still it's the best method I know, until Adobe supports USM, etc. in an
adjustment layer.
Wed, 05 October 2005 09:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JJSrock (Photoshop begginer)
Walterius wrote:
>
> Let me preface this by saying that although I have used PS versions 5-7 (I
> currently use 7), I still don't fully understand the pgm. I don't think I
> ever will.

Few can claim they fully understand how all PS tools work.

> To me, sharpening is hit and miss.

[snip]

Some images can be sharpened more than others. An inherent *perceived*
sharpness in an image often trumps the best sharpening method.

> As is generally taught, I do all the other stuff first, and sharpen last.

This Bruce Fraser guy thinks different:
http://www.creativepro.com/story/feature/20357.html

> Walterius,
> Old, and still sharpening in Fort Lauderdale.
> Self-taught (books, mainly), but I produce high-quality images that I like.

Yeah, just keep those nipples sharp.
Wed, 05 October 2005 16:23 Go to previous message
Walter Donavan (Photoshop expert)
> Yeah, just keep those nipples sharp.

I do, I do.
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