Aperture program vs. Photoshop

C
Posted By
Conrad
Oct 20, 2005
Views
834
Replies
20
Status
Closed
Hi,

Apple has fired a powerful shot across the bow of Adobe’s Photoshop with Aperture.

Important considerations include:

· List price of $499

· Powerful computer and monitor setups needed (at least suggested)

· Entrenchment of Adobe Photoshop over past 15 years

Best,

Conrad

(From: Stan Kline)

The first all-in-one post production tool that provides everything photographers need after the shoot, Aperture offers an advanced and incredibly fast RAW workflow that makes working with a camera’s RAW images as easy as JPEG. Built from the ground up for pros, Aperture features powerful compare and select tools, nondestructive image processing, color managed printing and custom web and book publishing.

[Oct 19, 2005] http://www.apple.com/aperture/

How to Master Sharpening in Photoshop

Give your photos a professional finish with sharpening in Photoshop. Learn to enhance details, create contrast, and prepare your images for print, web, and social media.

BP
Barry Pearson
Oct 20, 2005
Conrad wrote:
Hi,
Apple has fired a powerful shot across the bow of Adobe’s Photoshop with Aperture.
[snip]

It seemed to me at first sight more like (good) competition for Bridge + ACR than for Photoshop itself.


Barry Pearson
http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
http://www.birdsandanimals.info/
C
Clyde
Oct 20, 2005
Barry Pearson wrote:
Conrad wrote:

Hi,
Apple has fired a powerful shot across the bow of Adobe’s Photoshop with Aperture.

[snip]

It seemed to me at first sight more like (good) competition for Bridge + ACR than for Photoshop itself.


Barry Pearson
http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
http://www.birdsandanimals.info/

I agree. Or maybe Adobe Album. I doubt Adobe will change Photoshop much to compete. They may integrate Album and/or Bridge more with Photoshop.

As a pro wedding photographer (part time), Aperture looks very appealing. I do like its emphasis on workflow. For any pro that works on large batches of pictures at a time, that is great.

What amused me when I watched the QT videos that they have out there is the pros that are bringing almost perfect RAW pictures into Aperture. If that is the case, you probably don’t need all the editing features of Photoshop. Then the editing of Aperture would be just fine. (Assuming that its editing capabilities are less than Photoshop’s. They really didn’t show that part of it.)

However, I take plenty of pictures at a wedding that are less than perfect. Some are even quite a bit less than perfect. True, most of those get thrown out, but not all of them. Dark churches that don’t allow flashes or tripods during a ceremony give me pictures that are needed for the story, but need some work. Sometimes they need a lot of work.

So, I really need the power of Photoshop. Luckily Aperture will send pictures to Photoshop. Well, single layer ones. I don’t know if multiple layer Photoshop pictures will come back into Aperture, but I doubt it. I can’t see Apple building Aperture to handle Photoshop’s Adjustment Layers. I can’t see Adobe letting them get away with it.

Therefore, if I have to jump out of the beautiful workflow of Aperture, it may be a problem. If I have to take some pictures out of the workflow of Aperture permanently, then I may be defeating the advantage of Aperture. It looks like it was designed as an all-in-one solution with speed in mind.

I have worked up a pretty good work flow in Photoshop. Bridge has been an improvement in that workflow. It’s not nearly as nice as Aperture, but it works.

Besides, it’s all a moot point anyway. Aperture is OS X only. Due to specific app requirements for my other job, I am Windows XP Pro only. (OK, the cheaper, easier, and more flexible hardware upgrade options was a factor in the switch too.) I’m not spending thousands of dollars just to use Aperture.

I do hope that Adobe makes Album and/or Bridge to compete though. That would be very nice.

Clyde
R
Roberto
Oct 20, 2005
"Clyde" wrote in message

As a pro wedding photographer (part time), Aperture looks very appealing. I do like its emphasis on workflow. For any pro that works on large batches of pictures at a time, that is great.

Cyde, if you already have CS2, then be aware of the customizable menus/workflows. You can save a set that it most relevant to your everyday work, thus streamlining everything. We paid a lot for this software and might be overlooking some of it’s great features.

What amused me when I watched the QT videos that they have out there is the pros that are bringing almost perfect RAW pictures into Aperture.

How do they do that with some manufacturer’s RAW when it’s proprietary and even
Adobe can’t convince them to release their RAW format coding?
T
Tacit
Oct 21, 2005
In article ,
"Conrad" wrote:

Apple has fired a powerful shot across the bow of Adobe’s Photoshop with Aperture.

Aperture is more of a production and cataloging tool than an image editing tool. Not only is it not competition for Photoshop, it’s not really useful for image editing in a prepress environment at all. It’s not intended to do what Photoshop does, and it’s not intended to accomplish the same sorts of tasks.


Art, photography, shareware, polyamory, literature, kink: all at http://www.xeromag.com/franklin.html
C
Conrad
Oct 21, 2005
Hi Tacit,

Not only is it not competition for Photoshop, it’s not
really useful for image editing in a prepress environment at all.<<

Thanks for your comments. I’ll wait and see how this shakes out over the next 6-12 months.

Best,

Conrad
R
Roberto
Oct 21, 2005
"Conrad" wrote in message
Hi Tacit,

Not only is it not competition for Photoshop, it’s not
really useful for image editing in a prepress environment at all.<<
Thanks for your comments. I’ll wait and see how this shakes out over the next 6-12 months.

The masses could care less about prepress. Many people buy Photoshop because it’s expensive, reputed to be the best. I think it is safe to say that a vast minority use less than 30% of the program, and none of the prepress, and know nothing about color management. They benefit without even knowing why.

As strange as it may seem, by placing Aperture higher in the middle price range, under Photoshop, they may have added perceived value to the package. Question: We know that Photoshop is outrageously expensive in some European countries; are Apple’s applications similarly expensive there?
C
Clyde
Oct 21, 2005
Lorem Ipsum wrote:
"Clyde" wrote in message

As a pro wedding photographer (part time), Aperture looks very appealing. I do like its emphasis on workflow. For any pro that works on large batches of pictures at a time, that is great.

Cyde, if you already have CS2, then be aware of the customizable menus/workflows. You can save a set that it most relevant to your everyday work, thus streamlining everything. We paid a lot for this software and might be overlooking some of it’s great features.

What amused me when I watched the QT videos that they have out there is the pros that are bringing almost perfect RAW pictures into Aperture.

How do they do that with some manufacturer’s RAW when it’s proprietary and even
Adobe can’t convince them to release their RAW format coding?

I do have CS2 and I do know about that feature. Of course, I haven’t taken the time to actually use it. I had a bunch of Workspaces in CS for File Browser, but Bridge fixed most of that for me. Someday…

Ah, there is a lot of Photoshop that I don’t use. I guess it has to do with what someone would use Photoshop for. My graphic artist friends use many piece of Photoshop that I rarely touch. Then again, I use a lot of tools and techniques for photo editing that they have never used. Either that means that Photoshop is overkill or that it is broad and flexible enough for all the graphic arts.

————–

Maybe Apple is willing to give more money to those proprietary RAW owners of RAW. That would seem logical for a company who is trying to break into a market. Adobe owns that market and probably thinks that it is more to the advantage of the proprietary RAW own to give it to them. It’s called using market leverage to get what you want. Too bad if you are the one caught in the middle.

Clyde
C
Clyde
Oct 21, 2005
tacit wrote:
In article ,
"Conrad" wrote:

Apple has fired a powerful shot across the bow of Adobe’s Photoshop with Aperture.

Aperture is more of a production and cataloging tool than an image editing tool. Not only is it not competition for Photoshop, it’s not really useful for image editing in a prepress environment at all. It’s not intended to do what Photoshop does, and it’s not intended to accomplish the same sorts of tasks.

Of course, their user testimony seems to imply that it is the all-in-one, complete solution. Those QT movies make it seem that it does everything. OK, they only have the briefest hints to editing. The specs do give more ideas about editing. The follow from this page:

http://www.apple.com/aperture/specs.html

Image Processing

* Non-destructive image processing
* Master image becomes locked digital negative
* Create alternate versions without using extra disk space * Photographer’s “Essential” non-destructive editing tools o Exposure
o Histogram
o Crop
o Highlights & Shadows
o Sharpen
o RGB Channel Mixer
o Levels
o White Balance
o Straighten
o Red Eye Correction
o Noise Reduction
* Modify and suspend adjustments at any time
* Dust, spot, blemish, red-eye, and patch tools
* Lift and Stamp tool to copy and paste adjustments
* Use Stacks to manage alternate versions
* Seamless Photoshop integration
o One-click export directly into Photoshop as .PSD or TIFF o Native support for flattened or single-layer .PSD files o Manage Photoshop-generated image versions

That seems to be getting into Photoshop territory. Well, maybe Photoshop Elements. For almost perfect picture being imported, that is probably all you need.

The nod to Photoshop is probably critical to survival. Most of my pictures are single layer after the first edit. Some are not. This seems to imply that they won’t come back into Aperture. I guess it depends on how you work.

BTW, most professional photographers don’t give damn about prepress. I think I’ve used the prepress features of Photoshop just once. That was an odd situation too. Building prepress capabilities into Aperture would be a complete waste.

Clyde
BP
Barry Pearson
Oct 21, 2005
Clyde wrote:
[snip]
Of course, their user testimony seems to imply that it is the all-in-one, complete solution. Those QT movies make it seem that it does everything. OK, they only have the briefest hints to editing. The specs do give more ideas about editing. The follow from this page:
http://www.apple.com/aperture/specs.html

Image Processing

* Non-destructive image processing
* Master image becomes locked digital negative
* Create alternate versions without using extra disk space * Photographer’s "Essential" non-destructive editing tools o Exposure
o Histogram
o Crop
o Highlights & Shadows
o Sharpen
o RGB Channel Mixer
o Levels
o White Balance
o Straighten
o Red Eye Correction
o Noise Reduction
* Modify and suspend adjustments at any time
* Dust, spot, blemish, red-eye, and patch tools
* Lift and Stamp tool to copy and paste adjustments
* Use Stacks to manage alternate versions
* Seamless Photoshop integration
o One-click export directly into Photoshop as .PSD or TIFF o Native support for flattened or single-layer .PSD files o Manage Photoshop-generated image versions

That seems to be getting into Photoshop territory. Well, maybe Photoshop Elements. For almost perfect picture being imported, that is probably all you need.
[snip]

Most (actually, all) of those are Bridge+ACR territory. They don’t need a photo-editor at all.

Compared with that list, Bridge+ACR currently lacks red-eye, and the spot & patch actions. And it also lacks convenient alternative versions.

But Bridge+ACR has curves, lens aberation correction, and camera calibration. And it can maintain the metadata and settings inside a DNG file.

I think the total end-to-end workflow aspects are more important than those details. Such as printing direct from raw without having to go through a photo-editor.

What this does suggest is that, if we look at the total product that we get when we buy "Photoshop CS2", a minority of it, Bridge+ACR, provides the major match with Aperture. And the most visible, and by far the largest, part of CS2, Photoshop, adds a relatively small amount of value compared with Aperture.

This corresponds to my recent experience. I would be happy to see relatively little Photoshop development in the next release or two, if I could get LOTS of Bridge+ACR development, to match Aperture, and lightcrafts’s LightZone.


Barry Pearson
http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
http://www.birdsandanimals.info/
MA
Mohamed Al-Dabbagh
Oct 22, 2005
Conrad wrote:
I’ll wait and see how this shakes out over
the next 6-12 months.

Hi Conrad,

Thank you for the post. I only knew about Aperture from you. I went through the Apple website, but couldn’t find what indicates that Aperure is a real competitor! However, I think that the future months will prove something. I only want to remind friends here with what I wrote before (Feb 2004):

http://groups.google.com/group/adobe.photoshop.windows/brows e_frm/thread/1bc2738809f98f15/e8284f907f88c5ba?lnk=st&q= mohamed+al-dabbagh&rnum=54&hl=en#e8284f907f88c5ba

Mohamed Al-Dabbagh
Senior Graphic Designer
C
Conrad
Oct 22, 2005
Hi Mohamed,

Thanks for your nice message and reference for your earlier writing. I enjoyed reading it and your thoughts about Photoshop.

Best,

Conrad
C
Clyde
Oct 22, 2005
Barry Pearson wrote:
<snip>

What this does suggest is that, if we look at the total product that we get when we buy "Photoshop CS2", a minority of it, Bridge+ACR, provides the major match with Aperture. And the most visible, and by far the largest, part of CS2, Photoshop, adds a relatively small amount of value compared with Aperture.

This corresponds to my recent experience. I would be happy to see relatively little Photoshop development in the next release or two, if I could get LOTS of Bridge+ACR development, to match Aperture, and lightcrafts’s LightZone.


Barry Pearson

I agree. I actually upgraded to CS2 primarily because of Bridge. For my photo work, the Healing Brush was one of the few real advances inside of Photoshop in the last several versions.

I bet Adobe will respond to Aperture with significant improvements in Bridge/ACR/Album. Let’s hope so.

Clyde
A
adykes
Oct 23, 2005
In article ,
Mohamed Al-Dabbagh wrote:
Conrad wrote:
I’ll wait and see how this shakes out over
the next 6-12 months.

Hi Conrad,

Thank you for the post. I only knew about Aperture from you. I went through the Apple website, but couldn’t find what indicates that Aperure is a real competitor! However, I think that the future months will prove something. I only want to remind friends here with what I wrote before (Feb 2004):

I spent half an hour at PhotoExpo yesterday chatting with a guy in the Apple booth about Aperture, running on his Powerbook. I’m a beginning PS user and was with a friend who owns a D20 and a powerbook but has yet to join the Photoshop cult. He’s looking to Aperature as his tool.

The Apple rep made it clear that Aperature is a workflow tool and can select, crop and color correct a massive number of shots. It looks slick.

It looks like anything that for anything that requires layers or more creative operations they hand it off to Photoshop and the guy ays that passing an image to PS and back to Aperature is close to seamless.


a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m

Don’t blame me. I voted for Gore.
A
adykes
Oct 23, 2005
In article ,
Clyde wrote:
Barry Pearson wrote:
<snip>

What this does suggest is that, if we look at the total product that we get when we buy "Photoshop CS2", a minority of it, Bridge+ACR, provides the major match with Aperture. And the most visible, and by far the largest, part of CS2, Photoshop, adds a relatively small amount of value compared with Aperture.

This corresponds to my recent experience. I would be happy to see relatively little Photoshop development in the next release or two, if I could get LOTS of Bridge+ACR development, to match Aperture, and lightcrafts’s LightZone.


Barry Pearson

I agree. I actually upgraded to CS2 primarily because of Bridge. For my photo work, the Healing Brush was one of the few real advances inside of Photoshop in the last several versions.

I bet Adobe will respond to Aperture with significant improvements in Bridge/ACR/Album. Let’s hope so.

Clyde

Aperature looks like, first, a workflow tool and the comparison to Bridge (whick I only know from Apple demos) and C1 is valid.


a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m

Don’t blame me. I voted for Gore.
BP
Barry Pearson
Oct 23, 2005
Al Dykes wrote:
[snip]
Aperature looks like, first, a workflow tool and the comparison to Bridge (whick I only know from Apple demos) and C1 is valid.

I’ve been thinking about what Apple could achieve using their approach of non-destructive adjustments to raw files. I’ve come to the conclusion that they could actually develop Aperture into a comprehensive photo-editing tool that would be very serious competition to ALL of Bridge + ACR + Photoshop. In much less time than it took to develop Photoshop to its current state.

Here are two "paradigms" for holding photo-edits here. One is to hold "instructions", the other is to hold "results".

Photoshop started life holding "results". It held a digital image as a rectilinear array of pixels. As you edited, it changed those pixels. You saved the results of the editing as changed pixels. Over the years, it added the ability also to hold "instructions". An adjustment layer is a set of instructions for changing an image. It doesn’t actually change the pixels directly. (They get changed temporarily when you print or display on a screen, or permanently when you flatten the layers). So Photoshop has become a hybrid, but sometimes a bit uneasy.

ACR, Aperture, and I believe LightZone, don’t save the results. They save the instructions. This is potentially very powerful. The downside is that it needs a lot of processing power, because, to use the results of lots of editing, it has to apply all of the instructions so far, instead of the just loading up the changed pixels from previous editing. That processing power is becoming available, and is what Aperture exploits.

Examples of the differences between these two paradigms:

To crop in Photoshop, it basically discards the unwanted pixels, and the result is the rest of the pixels. To crop in ACR, it creates simple XMP metadata describing the coordinates of the corners of the crop, and leaves the image data unchanged.

To do red-eye in Photoshop, it changes the values of the pixels concerned in the image array. If ACR did red-eye, (which Nikon Capture and Aperture do, so I expect ACR will in future), it just needs to hold about 4 numbers: the x & y coordinates, and the pupil size and darkening amount, in XMP.

In principle, just about ANY editing should be possible using the "instructions" paradigm. After all, you could record everything you did with Photoshop, then instead of saving the "results" (as pixels), save the record of the instructions. These could be applied later to the original image. So if the instruction-metadata also holds the order of editing operations, it can in principle to do anything Photoshop can do. But it would use one single model, not Photoshop’s hybrid approach. Potentially, much simpler.

Once it is the instructions that are saved, there are some super possibilities. Think about the way that lots of HTML web pages can all use a single CSS file as their style sheet. Change that CSS, and all of those pages change their rendition without changing their data. Imagine lots of image all refering to a single instance (not multiple copies) of metadata. Edit one of those images, that metadata changes, and all of the images change simultaneously. This is the sort of thing that is becoming necessary when handling 100s of raw images at a time. With ACR, and probably with Aperture at the moment, you have to apply the change to every image, perhaps by some sort of copying operation. But, in future, by sharing metadata, changing one bit of data would change them all. All the computer science concepts of OO, type hierarchies, and inheritance, could be used to make the workflow easier.

It is clear from Apple forums that Aperture is just at version 1, and they are already working on later versions. I hope Adobe are working on the enhancements to Bridge+ACR to achieve similar capability.


Barry Pearson
http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
http://www.birdsandanimals.info/
C
Clyde
Oct 23, 2005
Al Dykes wrote:
In article ,
Mohamed Al-Dabbagh wrote:

Conrad wrote:

I’ll wait and see how this shakes out over
the next 6-12 months.

Hi Conrad,

Thank you for the post. I only knew about Aperture from you. I went through the Apple website, but couldn’t find what indicates that Aperure is a real competitor! However, I think that the future months will prove something. I only want to remind friends here with what I wrote before (Feb 2004):

I spent half an hour at PhotoExpo yesterday chatting with a guy in the Apple booth about Aperture, running on his Powerbook. I’m a beginning PS user and was with a friend who owns a D20 and a powerbook but has yet to join the Photoshop cult. He’s looking to Aperature as his tool.

The Apple rep made it clear that Aperature is a workflow tool and can select, crop and color correct a massive number of shots. It looks slick.

It looks like anything that for anything that requires layers or more creative operations they hand it off to Photoshop and the guy ays that passing an image to PS and back to Aperature is close to seamless.
…. if you pass back a single layer Photoshop file. It doesn’t appear to handle multi-layer Photoshop files. That is a serious limitation for many Photoshop users.

Clyde
R
Roberto
Oct 23, 2005
Oh, that is smart. Have Apple make a problem that causes Adobe to drop yet another program for the Mac. Apple is a monopoly and apparently you idiots like it that way.

"Barry Pearson" wrote in message
Al Dykes wrote:
[snip]
Aperature looks like, first, a workflow tool and the comparison to Bridge (whick I only know from Apple demos) and C1 is valid.

I’ve been thinking about what Apple could achieve using their approach of non-destructive adjustments to raw files. I’ve come to the conclusion that they could actually develop Aperture into a comprehensive photo-editing tool
that would be very serious competition to ALL of Bridge + ACR + Photoshop. In
much less time than it took to develop Photoshop to its current state.
Here are two "paradigms" for holding photo-edits here. One is to hold "instructions", the other is to hold "results".
Photoshop started life holding "results". It held a digital image as a rectilinear array of pixels. As you edited, it changed those pixels. You saved
the results of the editing as changed pixels. Over the years, it added the ability also to hold "instructions". An adjustment layer is a set of instructions for changing an image. It doesn’t actually change the pixels directly. (They get changed temporarily when you print or display on a screen,
or permanently when you flatten the layers). So Photoshop has become a hybrid,
but sometimes a bit uneasy.

ACR, Aperture, and I believe LightZone, don’t save the results. They save the
instructions. This is potentially very powerful. The downside is that it needs
a lot of processing power, because, to use the results of lots of editing, it
has to apply all of the instructions so far, instead of the just loading up
the changed pixels from previous editing. That processing power is becoming
available, and is what Aperture exploits.

Examples of the differences between these two paradigms:
To crop in Photoshop, it basically discards the unwanted pixels, and the result is the rest of the pixels. To crop in ACR, it creates simple XMP metadata describing the coordinates of the corners of the crop, and leaves the
image data unchanged.

To do red-eye in Photoshop, it changes the values of the pixels concerned in
the image array. If ACR did red-eye, (which Nikon Capture and Aperture do, so
I expect ACR will in future), it just needs to hold about 4 numbers: the x & y
coordinates, and the pupil size and darkening amount, in XMP.
In principle, just about ANY editing should be possible using the "instructions" paradigm. After all, you could record everything you did with
Photoshop, then instead of saving the "results" (as pixels), save the record
of the instructions. These could be applied later to the original image. So if
the instruction-metadata also holds the order of editing operations, it can in
principle to do anything Photoshop can do. But it would use one single model,
not Photoshop’s hybrid approach. Potentially, much simpler.
Once it is the instructions that are saved, there are some super possibilities. Think about the way that lots of HTML web pages can all use a
single CSS file as their style sheet. Change that CSS, and all of those pages
change their rendition without changing their data. Imagine lots of image all
refering to a single instance (not multiple copies) of metadata. Edit one of
those images, that metadata changes, and all of the images change simultaneously. This is the sort of thing that is becoming necessary when handling 100s of raw images at a time. With ACR, and probably with Aperture at
the moment, you have to apply the change to every image, perhaps by some sort
of copying operation. But, in future, by sharing metadata, changing one bit of
data would change them all. All the computer science concepts of OO, type hierarchies, and inheritance, could be used to make the workflow easier.
It is clear from Apple forums that Aperture is just at version 1, and they are
already working on later versions. I hope Adobe are working on the enhancements to Bridge+ACR to achieve similar capability.

Barry Pearson
http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
http://www.birdsandanimals.info/

BP
Barry Pearson
Oct 23, 2005
HornBlower wrote:
Oh, that is smart. Have Apple make a problem that causes Adobe to drop yet another program for the Mac. Apple is a monopoly and apparently you idiots like it that way.

Are you talking to me? I use Windows, not Mac.

"Barry Pearson" wrote in message
[snip]


Barry Pearson
http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
http://www.birdsandanimals.info/
R
Roberto
Oct 24, 2005
"HornBlower" wrote in message

Apple is a monopoly ….

Don’t you hate when you screw up like that?
R
Roberto
Oct 24, 2005
"Barry Pearson" wrote in message
HornBlower wrote:
Oh, that is smart. Have Apple make a problem that causes Adobe to drop yet
another program for the Mac. Apple is a monopoly and apparently you idiots
like it that way.

Are you talking to me? I use Windows, not Mac.

I use a Mac from time to time just to lube the liberal parts, to fit-in, social-wise. What a bother.

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