scanning family photos – need settings advice

N
Posted By
Nikko
May 21, 2004
Views
1805
Replies
84
Status
Closed
I’m about to start the process of scanning hundreds of old family photos. I don’t really know a ton about how this stuff works and would love to have a few questions answered before I get too far into the project.

My scanner supports up to 1200 DPI. The next step down is 600 DPI. I don’t know which to use. My instinct is go with the higher DPI because we’re going to want to have these pictures forever and the scans may end up being the only copies we have if something happens to the originals. On the other hand, the difference in size is substantial: over 26 MB for 1200 DPI and only 6.5 for 600 DPI. What are the pros and cons of each? Is 1200 DPI overkill? I have mostly black & white photos to scan, but some are in color. Should I use the higher setting for just the color photos, both or neither? Any advice would be much appreciated.

Also, I’m just planning on saving the scans in the jpeg format. Any reason not to? Should I be using a different file format?

Thanks again for any help you can provide.

Master Retouching Hair

Learn how to rescue details, remove flyaways, add volume, and enhance the definition of hair in any photo. We break down every tool and technique in Photoshop to get picture-perfect hair, every time.

S
Stephan
May 21, 2004
"Nikko" wrote in message
I’m about to start the process of scanning hundreds of old family photos.
I
don’t really know a ton about how this stuff works and would love to have
a
few questions answered before I get too far into the project.
My scanner supports up to 1200 DPI. The next step down is 600 DPI. I
don’t
know which to use. My instinct is go with the higher DPI because we’re going to want to have these pictures forever and the scans may end up
being
the only copies we have if something happens to the originals. On the
other
hand, the difference in size is substantial: over 26 MB for 1200 DPI and only 6.5 for 600 DPI. What are the pros and cons of each? Is 1200 DPI overkill? I have mostly black & white photos to scan, but some are in color. Should I use the higher setting for just the color photos, both or neither? Any advice would be much appreciated.

Also, I’m just planning on saving the scans in the jpeg format. Any
reason
not to? Should I be using a different file format?

It all depends at what size you will print
Roughly: original size 300, twice the size 600 since you are going to print at 300 dpi
Save as JPEG if you know you are not going to edit them much otherwise use TIF
Remember, CD do not last long, read this before you think you are archiving your family photos by burning them on CD:
http://tinyurl.com/2mqa7

Stephan
H
HIKER4LIFE
May 21, 2004
What does that mean "CD do not last long" Does this mean, even if you don’t use them over and over, they corrupt, or what? I am in the dark about how long a CD will last….
Thanks,

It all depends at what size you will print
Roughly: original size 300, twice the size 600 since you are going to
print
at 300 dpi
Save as JPEG if you know you are not going to edit them much otherwise use TIF
Remember, CD do not last long, read this before you think you are
archiving
your family photos by burning them on CD:
http://tinyurl.com/2mqa7

Stephan

N
nomail
May 21, 2004
Nikko wrote:

I’m about to start the process of scanning hundreds of old family photos. I don’t really know a ton about how this stuff works and would love to have a few questions answered before I get too far into the project.
My scanner supports up to 1200 DPI. The next step down is 600 DPI. I don’t know which to use. My instinct is go with the higher DPI because we’re going to want to have these pictures forever and the scans may end up being the only copies we have if something happens to the originals. On the other hand, the difference in size is substantial: over 26 MB for 1200 DPI and only 6.5 for 600 DPI. What are the pros and cons of each? Is 1200 DPI overkill? I have mostly black & white photos to scan, but some are in color. Should I use the higher setting for just the color photos, both or neither? Any advice would be much appreciated.

1200 dpi is indeed overkill, because the original will not have more detail than you can capture with 600 dpi or even less. So if you scan at 1200 dpi, you’ll get more pixels, but not more detail.


Johan W. Elzenga johan<<at>>johanfoto.nl Editor / Photographer http://www.johanfoto.nl/
J
Jim
May 21, 2004
Well, I scanned my photos and saved them to CD-R. Later I decided to transfer the scans to a DVD+R to save space in my cabinet. Alas about 10% of the 35 CD-R that I made were either partially or completely unreadable. None of these CD-Rs are more than 3 years old. That easily consists of not lasting long.
Jim
"HIKER4LIFE" wrote in message
What does that mean "CD do not last long" Does this mean, even if you
don’t
use them over and over, they corrupt, or what? I am in the dark about how long a CD will last….
Thanks,

It all depends at what size you will print
Roughly: original size 300, twice the size 600 since you are going to
print
at 300 dpi
Save as JPEG if you know you are not going to edit them much otherwise
use
TIF
Remember, CD do not last long, read this before you think you are
archiving
your family photos by burning them on CD:
http://tinyurl.com/2mqa7

Stephan

RH
Ron Hunter
May 22, 2004
Nikko wrote:

I’m about to start the process of scanning hundreds of old family photos. I don’t really know a ton about how this stuff works and would love to have a few questions answered before I get too far into the project.
My scanner supports up to 1200 DPI. The next step down is 600 DPI. I don’t know which to use. My instinct is go with the higher DPI because we’re going to want to have these pictures forever and the scans may end up being the only copies we have if something happens to the originals. On the other hand, the difference in size is substantial: over 26 MB for 1200 DPI and only 6.5 for 600 DPI. What are the pros and cons of each? Is 1200 DPI overkill? I have mostly black & white photos to scan, but some are in color. Should I use the higher setting for just the color photos, both or neither? Any advice would be much appreciated.

Also, I’m just planning on saving the scans in the jpeg format. Any reason not to? Should I be using a different file format?

Thanks again for any help you can provide.
Go here:
www.scantips.com

It will explain why scanning at 600DPI would be a waste of time and disk space for prints.
S
Stephan
May 22, 2004
"HIKER4LIFE" wrote in message
What does that mean "CD do not last long" Does this mean, even if you
don’t
use them over and over, they corrupt, or what? I am in the dark about how long a CD will last….
Thanks,

That is why I provided a link my friend, click on it!

Stephan
S
Stephan
May 22, 2004
"Stephan" wrote in message
"HIKER4LIFE" wrote in message
What does that mean "CD do not last long" Does this mean, even if you
don’t
use them over and over, they corrupt, or what? I am in the dark about
how
long a CD will last….
Thanks,

That is why I provided a link my friend, click on it!

Sorry I just realized these greedy Britts want a pound from you to read their old news, cheap bastards!
Anyway, CD are the worse way to store info, they become unreadable faster than you think sometimes in less than two years.
Buy hard drives for longtime storage.

Stephan
EM
Erik Muna aka PetFish
May 22, 2004
So how come my audio CD’s from the early 90’s are still 100% playable even after a LOT of use over the years? In my opinion, *if* CD’s don’t work for two reasons: 1) cheap/crappy blanks and 2) cheap/crappy burners. My first burner was an HP and it was an early generation. A few months later I got a much nicer Pioneer but it wouldn’t play the CD’s I had just burned with my old drive but they *would* still play in the old drive.

Since the nice new drive and new media I’ve had no problems archiving data on CD’s. If a hard drive gets moved around, even a little in some cases, you could lose everything. Anyway, my advice would be to use multiple formats to store valuable things but CD’s work best for me and maybe I’m in the minority but whatever…


Erik Muna
Freelance Web Design & Graphic Arts
www.petfishonline.com … my online portfolio
ICQ: 13466765

"Stephan" wrote in message
CD are the worse way to store info, they become unreadable faster
than you think sometimes in less than two years.
Buy hard drives for longtime storage.

Stephan

J
JohnJ
May 22, 2004
Erik Muna wrote:

So how come my audio CD’s from the early 90’s are still 100% playable even after a LOT of use over the years? In my opinion, *if* CD’s don’t work for two reasons: 1) cheap/crappy blanks and 2) cheap/crappy burners. My first burner was an HP and it was an early generation. A few months later I got a much nicer Pioneer but it wouldn’t play the CD’s I had just burned with my old drive but they *would* still play in the old drive.
Since the nice new drive and new media I’ve had no problems archiving data on CD’s. If a hard drive gets moved around, even a little in some cases, you could lose everything. Anyway, my advice would be to use multiple formats to store valuable things but CD’s work best for me and maybe I’m in the minority but whatever…

WRT manufactured CD’s, as long as they are stored correctly, they should last many years without deterioration. Temperature and humidity can cause damage to these.

Home burned CD & DVD’s are much more of a problem. However if done properly archiving using CD-R & DVD-R’s can last many years as well.

First, a high quality burner and high quality media are important. I personally use Plextor drives and Verbatim DataLifePlus and Taiyo Yuden media.

For storage, because the media are dye-based, temperature, humidity, and light can cause deterioration. After burning I store my archives in a closet. Burning a second copy and storing in a second location (another house) is good insurance.

Conclusion, if you use a $25 burner with cheap, low quality media you are risking all your image files.
S
Stephan
May 22, 2004
"Erik Muna" wrote in message
So how come my audio CD’s from the early 90’s are still 100% playable even after a LOT of use over the years? In my opinion, *if* CD’s don’t
work
for two reasons: 1) cheap/crappy blanks and 2) cheap/crappy burners.
My
first burner was an HP and it was an early generation. A few months later
I
got a much nicer Pioneer but it wouldn’t play the CD’s I had just burned with my old drive but they *would* still play in the old drive.
Since the nice new drive and new media I’ve had no problems archiving data on CD’s. If a hard drive gets moved around, even a little in some cases, you could lose everything. Anyway, my advice would be to use multiple formats to store valuable things but CD’s work best for me and maybe I’m in the minority but whatever…
You will always find somebody with a story of an uncle who smoked three packs a day and lived a hundred years.
That doesn’t make smoking any safer for the rest of us.
Store your precious data in CDs if you are too broke to buy hard drives, your problem.
As you said wisely: whatever

Stephan
J
john
May 22, 2004
In article <6hvrc.4886$>, "Nikko"
wrote:

[…] My instinct is go with the higher DPI because we’re going to want to have these pictures forever and the scans may end up being the only copies we have if something happens to the originals.
[…]

With respect, digital storge can be risky compared to prints. I strongly suggest you scan and then print archival copies just in case of an electronic mishap. The prints are your last resort backup.

Just my two-bits worth.
I see you have plenty of good advice concerning the scaning. Very best of luck,
jjs
J
john
May 22, 2004
In article , "HIKER4LIFE"
wrote:

What does that mean "CD do not last long" Does this mean, even if you don’t use them over and over, they corrupt, or what? I am in the dark about how long a CD will last….

The truth is nobody _knows_ how long any particular CDROM will last because today’s CDROMS are, ah, todays! We have no history of current technology. 🙂

Twelve years is the best guess for CDROM longevity. It could be much less, or possibly more. An archival print will last 100 years.
J
john
May 22, 2004
In article <iyxrc.560858$>, "Erik Muna"
wrote:

So how come my audio CD’s from the early 90’s are still 100% playable even after a LOT of use over the years?

The ear is not a camera. Picture files and music files are two entirely different things. Music can degrade, but picture files (FAPP) just go at once.
P
pooua
May 22, 2004
"Nikko" …
I’m about to start the process of scanning hundreds of old family photos. I don’t really know a ton about how this stuff works and would love to have a few questions answered before I get too far into the project.

I am engaged in the same project for my family photos.

My scanner supports up to 1200 DPI. The next step down is 600 DPI. I don’t know which to use. My instinct is go with the higher DPI because we’re going to want to have these pictures forever and the scans may end up being the only copies we have if something happens to the originals.

That is my thinking, too. The pack-rat nature runs in my family. I hate to lose even a single bit of data.

On the other
hand, the difference in size is substantial: over 26 MB for 1200 DPI and only 6.5 for 600 DPI.

Yes, indeed! I recently scanned 68 photots that were taken with my boyhood camera, a Kodak 110. I saved each picture as a TIFF, no compression, 48-bit color, about 80 MB per photo. I could only fit 50 of my scanned photos on a DVD. Those are the largest scans as a series that I have.

What are the pros and cons of each? Is 1200 DPI overkill?

I have been experimenting. My scanner, an Epson Perfection 3200 Photo, supports up to 3200 dpi optical resolution. I have only once used it at full resolution, just as a test of a tiny spot. I am of the opinion that there is no reason to scan the photo past the point at which the grain of the photos becomes obvious. My parents generally used bargain film, whatever was cheapest, so it is not at all difficult for me to overscan the photos, or even the negatives. Usually, 600 dpi is sufficient, though I am increasing the resolution for the newer photos, because the quality of the film they bought improved every few years.

I have mostly black & white photos to scan, but some are in color. Should I use the higher setting for just the color photos, both or neither? Any advice would be much appreciated.

Of course, b&w photos need less space for the same resolution, because they can be scanned as grayscale, instead of color (make sure you select grayscale instead of color when you scan them). But, I scan at the resolution at which I begin to notice grain in the scan. I experiment to find this resolution with each batch of photos.

Also, I’m just planning on saving the scans in the jpeg format. Any reason not to? Should I be using a different file format?

For archiving in which I want to maintain the full details, I must use a lossless file format. The difference between my scans of my 110 photos saved as TIFF and those converted to JPEG is obvious when viewed side-by-side. Even at high-quality JPEG, the photos are fuzzier, blurrier, than the TIFFs. Of course, they are also much smaller.

You don’t necessarily have to save your files as TIFF, but I am somewhat familiar with its specifications, and I feel most comfortable in using it for this purpose. Other times, I use PNG, or Adobe Elements’ native PDF. I don’t remember right now if PDF is lossless, though I think it is not.

Of course, just running my scans through all this processing loses some image quality. Adobe Elements does not even support the color depth at which I am scanning, and neither do some file formats. I don’t remember the bit depth that PNG suppports, but GIF is only an 8-bit format; I don’t recommend using GIF for any sort of archiving, for several reasons.

It is true that high-quality scans take up a lot of space, but I believe this is a time to be generous, and not stingy. These scans are meant to last for many years, and so we should take the long-term outlook. I always try to get the highest quality product of anything that I intend to have for a long time. Also, the cost of storage space is dropping rapidly, and the expectations of quality are rising. One of these days, someone is going to develop a video display with the quality we now use for professional offset printing (probably next century ;P).

There has been a lot of discussion about the lifespan of CDs. Professional archivers are experimenting with many approaches to make documents last and remain accessible for many years. No one actually knows how long any CD can reasonably last, but proper storage certainly helps extend their life. But, home-burned CDs are based on dyes, and the lifespan of the information on the home-burned CD cannot be more secure than the dye (OK, some scientist may develop a way to recover the information from a CD based on nano-trace samples remaining on the plastic, or some such). The approach I am using now is to save on both archival hard drives and CD/DVD media. The magnetic media is likely to be readable (with appropriate technology) for centuries, probably longer than the DVDs. Of course, the hard drives cost more than the DVDs.

In the end, you should anticipate that your data may have to be converted to new formats, but physically and logically, from time-to-time.
U
username
May 22, 2004
Regarding CD longevity, use Mitsui gold technology (it is licensed to some manufacturers). Regarding image storage, never trust one copy and preferably one media type.
Make at least two backups of everything important and
store them in separate places (different buildings
not close together). Some links:

http://www.cd-info.com/CDIC/Technology/CD-R/Media/Longevity. html

http://www.silverace.com/dottyspotty/issue12.html

Mitsui gold CDR longevity (probably the best disk)
http://www.inkjetart.com/kodak_cd.html

Lifetime of KODAK Writable CD and Photo CD Media:
http://www.cd-info.com/CDIC/Technology/CD-R/Media/Kodak.html (KodaK gold disks are probably no longer made)

Roger Clark
Photos, digital info at:
http://www.clarkvision.com
V
Voivod
May 22, 2004
On Sat, 22 May 2004 00:55:42 GMT, "Erik Muna" scribbled:

So how come my audio CD’s from the early 90’s are still 100% playable even after a LOT of use over the years? In my opinion, *if* CD’s don’t work

Because commercially produced CD media is pressed, not burned.
XT
xalinai_Two
May 22, 2004
On Fri, 21 May 2004 22:20:50 GMT, "Nikko"
wrote:

I’m about to start the process of scanning hundreds of old family photos. I don’t really know a ton about how this stuff works and would love to have a few questions answered before I get too far into the project.
My scanner supports up to 1200 DPI. The next step down is 600 DPI. I don’t know which to use. My instinct is go with the higher DPI because we’re going to want to have these pictures forever and the scans may end up being the only copies we have if something happens to the originals. On the other hand, the difference in size is substantial: over 26 MB for 1200 DPI and only 6.5 for 600 DPI. What are the pros and cons of each? Is 1200 DPI overkill? I have mostly black & white photos to scan, but some are in color. Should I use the higher setting for just the color photos, both or neither? Any advice would be much appreciated.

Modern paper prints usually don’t have enough resolution for a scan with more than 200-300 ppi. If you have matte paper, don’t try anything beyond 250ppi, you will only scan the matte structure detail.

Historic (1960 or earlier) color prints and handmade prints will provide more detail (sometimes 400ppi) and very old and small B/W prints sometimes give still more detail.

Also, I’m just planning on saving the scans in the jpeg format. Any reason not to? Should I be using a different file format?

Both: Yes.

JPG is lossy and as such not a archiving format. Use a lossless format such as TIFF or PNG to archive average size images (<12 million pixels). What you throw away when saving as JPG can never be recovered.

With regard to media longevity, always keep multiple copies of your images in different locations. Give copies of the media you create to other family members – they will be happy to get the images and you will silently know you have another backup location.
Keep in mind that digital media becomes unreadable less because of media age but from technical progress. Migrate data regularly to new media (CD->DVD->???, about every 5 years) and avoid proprietary data formats (Images as PSD) because the programs may become unavailable in the future.

Michael
XT
xalinai_Two
May 22, 2004
On Sat, 22 May 2004 00:55:42 GMT, "Erik Muna" wrote:

So how come my audio CD’s from the early 90’s are still 100% playable even after a LOT of use over the years? In my opinion, *if* CD’s don’t work for two reasons: 1) cheap/crappy blanks and 2) cheap/crappy burners. My first burner was an HP and it was an early generation. A few months later I got a much nicer Pioneer but it wouldn’t play the CD’s I had just burned with my old drive but they *would* still play in the old drive.
Since the nice new drive and new media I’ve had no problems archiving data on CD’s. If a hard drive gets moved around, even a little in some cases, you could lose everything. Anyway, my advice would be to use multiple formats to store valuable things but CD’s work best for me and maybe I’m in the minority but whatever…

The problem may be storage conditions too. Burned CDs like dark closed spaces. Even in a jewel case on a shelf in a bright, sunlit room they can get a "sunburn" that makes them unreadable.

And always keep at least one second copy in a different place.

Michael
RH
Ron Hunter
May 22, 2004
Richard Alexander wrote:

"Nikko" …

I’m about to start the process of scanning hundreds of old family photos. I don’t really know a ton about how this stuff works and would love to have a few questions answered before I get too far into the project.

I am engaged in the same project for my family photos.

My scanner supports up to 1200 DPI. The next step down is 600 DPI. I don’t know which to use. My instinct is go with the higher DPI because we’re going to want to have these pictures forever and the scans may end up being the only copies we have if something happens to the originals.

That is my thinking, too. The pack-rat nature runs in my family. I hate to lose even a single bit of data.

On the other
hand, the difference in size is substantial: over 26 MB for 1200 DPI and only 6.5 for 600 DPI.

Yes, indeed! I recently scanned 68 photots that were taken with my boyhood camera, a Kodak 110. I saved each picture as a TIFF, no compression, 48-bit color, about 80 MB per photo. I could only fit 50 of my scanned photos on a DVD. Those are the largest scans as a series that I have.

What are the pros and cons of each? Is 1200 DPI overkill?

I have been experimenting. My scanner, an Epson Perfection 3200 Photo, supports up to 3200 dpi optical resolution. I have only once used it at full resolution, just as a test of a tiny spot. I am of the opinion that there is no reason to scan the photo past the point at which the grain of the photos becomes obvious. My parents generally used bargain film, whatever was cheapest, so it is not at all difficult for me to overscan the photos, or even the negatives. Usually, 600 dpi is sufficient, though I am increasing the resolution for the newer photos, because the quality of the film they bought improved every few years.

I have mostly black & white photos to scan, but some are in color. Should I use the higher setting for just the color photos, both or neither? Any advice would be much appreciated.

Of course, b&w photos need less space for the same resolution, because they can be scanned as grayscale, instead of color (make sure you select grayscale instead of color when you scan them). But, I scan at the resolution at which I begin to notice grain in the scan. I experiment to find this resolution with each batch of photos.

Also, I’m just planning on saving the scans in the jpeg format. Any reason not to? Should I be using a different file format?

For archiving in which I want to maintain the full details, I must use a lossless file format. The difference between my scans of my 110 photos saved as TIFF and those converted to JPEG is obvious when viewed side-by-side. Even at high-quality JPEG, the photos are fuzzier, blurrier, than the TIFFs. Of course, they are also much smaller.

You don’t necessarily have to save your files as TIFF, but I am somewhat familiar with its specifications, and I feel most comfortable in using it for this purpose. Other times, I use PNG, or Adobe Elements’ native PDF. I don’t remember right now if PDF is lossless, though I think it is not.

Of course, just running my scans through all this processing loses some image quality. Adobe Elements does not even support the color depth at which I am scanning, and neither do some file formats. I don’t remember the bit depth that PNG suppports, but GIF is only an 8-bit format; I don’t recommend using GIF for any sort of archiving, for several reasons.

It is true that high-quality scans take up a lot of space, but I believe this is a time to be generous, and not stingy. These scans are meant to last for many years, and so we should take the long-term outlook. I always try to get the highest quality product of anything that I intend to have for a long time. Also, the cost of storage space is dropping rapidly, and the expectations of quality are rising. One of these days, someone is going to develop a video display with the quality we now use for professional offset printing (probably next century ;P).

There has been a lot of discussion about the lifespan of CDs. Professional archivers are experimenting with many approaches to make documents last and remain accessible for many years. No one actually knows how long any CD can reasonably last, but proper storage certainly helps extend their life. But, home-burned CDs are based on dyes, and the lifespan of the information on the home-burned CD cannot be more secure than the dye (OK, some scientist may develop a way to recover the information from a CD based on nano-trace samples remaining on the plastic, or some such). The approach I am using now is to save on both archival hard drives and CD/DVD media. The magnetic media is likely to be readable (with appropriate technology) for centuries, probably longer than the DVDs. Of course, the hard drives cost more than the DVDs.

In the end, you should anticipate that your data may have to be converted to new formats, but physically and logically, from time-to-time.

You REALLY need to read the information on scanning at www.scantips.com. You are wasting time and storage space for no benefit. And as for using uncompressed TIFF format, WHY? You can use lossless TIFF compression (LZW) and save tons of space.
H
harrylimey
May 22, 2004
Fred Langa has just published an article on the creation and storage of CD’s & DVD’s
I reproduce the article in its entirety (& take no credit for this myself) with the various reference links, for those who may have a need for this information.

"As more and more of us switch to CDR and DVD +/-R for long-term data storage, the question of how long the discs last, and how we can maximize their likely lifespan, becomes more and more important. We raised the issue of CDR longevity in "Is Your Data Disappearing?" ( http://www.informationweek.com/story/IWK20010719S0003 ) and in more detail in "Time To Check Your CDRs" (
http://www.informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtml?artic leID=15800263 ) Since then, the problem of "disc rot" (e.g.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/ptech/05/06/disc.rot.ap/index.h tml ) and similar problems have begun to get more play. Fortunately some organizations— some allied with the library sciences— have been looking at the issue:

Fred, I uncovered what has to be the definitive guide for Disc Care: http://www.clir.org/pubs/reports/pub121/contents.html Care and Handling of CDs and DVDs: A Guide for Librarians and Archivists. It reiterates your stance on labels and more. I never realized that flexing discs to remove them from a stubborn case could be harmful. I am still looking for a high quality CDR to replace the Kodak Golds that are no longer made. A weak CD reader reveals just how good these are compared to others. Keep up the great work. Greg Coutu

Hi Fred, Thanks for your list. It has saved my bacon more than once. This article appears to go one more step in the saga of how long a CD-r can be used for long term storage. Cd-r has been my storage of choice once they started to gain a reputation for usability, robustness and "long" life.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/science_technology/story .jsp?story=513486 Over the last few years I have noticed, unscientifically, that some CD-rs are less than co-operative when re-installing operating systems for clients. One will part install and in order to get past a stop point I use a second copy CD. I have to say that I do not work in laboratory conditions, far from it, but I do take a lot of care about cleanliness with my "tools" and always store the CDs in paper covers, not touching the surface and review the surface of all discs periodically to check for dust, cat hair and blemishes of any sort. But still there are occasional blips in installing programs and systems that appear to be more frequent than random. I have recently started to transition to DVD-r but this route clearly inhibits auto start since there are quite a lot of programs/systems stored on any one DVD. In reviewing articles that you have printed and this later one it would appear that DVD is the route to go if long terms needs are to be met. With the prices of DVD writers continuing to fall and the disk cost also reducing this seems to be a slightly more unwieldy, but productive route to take. My use of DVD-r is only recent and have hit a few snags but I put these, largely, down to the 1DTenT effect than product quality. Best regards, curlew

Thanks to all who have been sending in new information, as it’s discovered. When you think of how much we’re already depending on CDs and DVDs, knowing what to expect, and how to get the most out of them, is vital!"
N
nomail
May 22, 2004
Richard Alexander wrote:

On the other hand, the difference in size is substantial: over 26 MB for 1200 DPI and only 6.5 for 600 DPI.

Yes, indeed! I recently scanned 68 photots that were taken with my boyhood camera, a Kodak 110. I saved each picture as a TIFF, no compression, 48-bit color, about 80 MB per photo. I could only fit 50 of my scanned photos on a DVD. Those are the largest scans as a series that I have.

So why on earth did you do that? There is absolutely no reason to keep images in 48 bit color. After you have done your color and density corrections, convert them to 24 bits. And there is also no reason not to use LZW compression if you store your photos in TIFF format. You could have saved 4x as many photos per DVD.


Johan W. Elzenga johan<<at>>johanfoto.nl Editor / Photographer http://www.johanfoto.nl/
MM
Marvin Margoshes
May 22, 2004
"Nikko" wrote in message
I’m about to start the process of scanning hundreds of old family photos.
I
don’t really know a ton about how this stuff works and would love to have
a
few questions answered before I get too far into the project.
My scanner supports up to 1200 DPI. The next step down is 600 DPI. I
don’t
know which to use. My instinct is go with the higher DPI because we’re going to want to have these pictures forever and the scans may end up
being
the only copies we have if something happens to the originals. On the
other
hand, the difference in size is substantial: over 26 MB for 1200 DPI and only 6.5 for 600 DPI. What are the pros and cons of each? Is 1200 DPI overkill? I have mostly black & white photos to scan, but some are in color. Should I use the higher setting for just the color photos, both or neither? Any advice would be much appreciated.

If you are scanning prints, especially older ones, in most cases 200 dpi gets all the detail. Compare one with the same scan at 300 dpi. You probbaly won’t see any difference.

Also, I’m just planning on saving the scans in the jpeg format. Any
reason
not to? Should I be using a different file format?

Save the image just as it comes from the scanner, with the minumum compression. If you do image editing after that, save as a new image. Keep the original scan as if it were the negative from a film camera. You will later have the option to re-edit it.

Thanks again for any help you can provide.

P
pooua
May 22, 2004
Ron Hunter …

[snip]

You REALLY need to read the information on scanning at www.scantips.com.

Thank you for the link. I will look into it.

You are wasting time and storage space for no benefit. And as for using uncompressed TIFF format, WHY? You can use lossless TIFF compression (LZW) and save tons of space.

Why? Because I can…

It is true that I could have used lossless compression on the TIFF images. At the least, I could have simply WinZipped them. TIFFs compress very nicely, as much as 98% (typically in the 80% range) using WinZip. But, I did not do that. Fortunately, if I change my mind, the disks I used were DVD+RW.

I have a negative impression of LZW compression, after Unisys began demanding royalty payments for them. Even though the U.S. LZW patent expired 30 June 2003, I still generally avoid using the technique.
F
Frank ess
May 22, 2004
Marvin Margoshes wrote:
"Nikko" wrote in message
I’m about to start the process of scanning hundreds of old family photos. I don’t really know a ton about how this stuff works and would love to have a few questions answered before I get too far into the project.

My scanner supports up to 1200 DPI. The next step down is 600 DPI. I don’t know which to use. My instinct is go with the higher DPI because we’re going to want to have these pictures forever and the scans may end up being the only copies we have if something happens to the originals. On the other hand, the difference in size is substantial: over 26 MB for 1200 DPI and only 6.5 for 600 DPI. What are the pros and cons of each? Is 1200 DPI overkill? I have mostly black & white photos to scan, but some are in color. Should I use the higher setting for just the color photos, both or neither? Any advice would be much appreciated.

If you are scanning prints, especially older ones, in most cases 200 dpi gets all the detail. Compare one with the same scan at 300 dpi. You probbaly won’t see any difference.

My experience is that for small prints (~3" x 3" or smaller) there is some advantage in hyping up the dpi, if only when doing your spot-scratch cleanup: the edges you work with will have more pixels to choose among for selecting-in and -out.

To my intuitive eye, the higher-number scan rate yields more convincing "enlargements", if you want to turn your 3×3-inch picture into a 6x, for instance.

Case on point: I scanned the original (drugstore print from a little green Kodak) at 300dpi. Displayed on a 19" monitor at 1024×768 it was easy to see there was something in the background; zooming in just didn’t add any information to what you could see, just showed fatter pixels and compression wrinkles. Scanned at 600dpi you could actually check it out for some stuff. Scanned at 1200dpi, the image resized and saved-for-Web at Photo Shop JPEG 31 quality, there is much less in the way of blocking and a much ‘cleaner’ appearance than the one produced at 300dpi at the same display size.
http://tinyurl.com/22dd5

My custom and practice is to scan 8x10s at 300dpi, figuring that unless they were originally captured on something 4×5 or larger, all the useful detail is there on the print.

I ordinarily do 5x7s at 600dpi, and depending on the quality of print, most smaller ones at that same level. Depending on the projected use, there may be justification for 1200dpi scans of just about any print, but my library contains very few of those. Usually, 3×3 or smaller prints are not of a quality that yields anything useful at the higher dpi rates.

35mm slides and film scans I do in a HP PhotoSmart S20, which yields 3000×2000 images, plenty good for my purposes, which are to archive and display for the information content. As an example, there is a picture on this Web page that consists of a full-frame 35mm slide scan. Click on the picture to "drill down" to a larger version, and once again to see what is actually in there at the 2400dpi scan rate of the HP S20. http://tinyurl.com/37n5t
I’m always eager to get as much as possible of the available information, and in this case I think it’s pretty much all there. If you want more detail, it seems to me you should get closer with your camera.

Frank ess
RH
Ron Hunter
May 22, 2004
Richard Alexander wrote:
Ron Hunter …

[snip]

You REALLY need to read the information on scanning at www.scantips.com.

Thank you for the link. I will look into it.

You are wasting time and storage space for no benefit. And as for using uncompressed TIFF format, WHY? You can use lossless TIFF compression (LZW) and save tons of space.

Why? Because I can…

It is true that I could have used lossless compression on the TIFF images. At the least, I could have simply WinZipped them. TIFFs compress very nicely, as much as 98% (typically in the 80% range) using WinZip. But, I did not do that. Fortunately, if I change my mind, the disks I used were DVD+RW.

I have a negative impression of LZW compression, after Unisys began demanding royalty payments for them. Even though the U.S. LZW patent expired 30 June 2003, I still generally avoid using the technique.

There are other compression methods, so even if you have moral objections to using LZW, foregoing compression really eats up your storage, but if you don’t mind the time and expense, it saves on the other end when you want to look at the pictures.
RH
Roger Halstead
May 22, 2004
On 22 May 2004 11:15:45 -0700, (Richard Alexander)
wrote:

Ron Hunter …

[snip]

You REALLY need to read the information on scanning at www.scantips.com.

Thank you for the link. I will look into it.

You are wasting time and storage space for no benefit. And as for using uncompressed TIFF format, WHY? You can use lossless TIFF compression (LZW) and save tons of space.

Why? Because I can…

It is true that I could have used lossless compression on the TIFF images. At the least, I could have simply WinZipped them. TIFFs compress very nicely, as much as 98% (typically in the 80% range) using WinZip. But, I did not do that. Fortunately, if I change my mind, the disks I used were DVD+RW.

Having used DVD RWs is not a plus. If you value the data put it on regular DVD-R. The RWs are not even recomended for back-ups. Only for temportary storage such as moving data from one machine to another.

I have a negative impression of LZW compression, after Unisys began demanding royalty payments for them. Even though the U.S. LZW patent expired 30 June 2003, I still generally avoid using the technique.

If you have the equipment and backup I’d not be concerned.

Myself I prefer not to use compression as I don’t completely trust it.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
J
JohnJ
May 22, 2004
Roger Halstead wrote:

It is true that I could have used lossless compression on the TIFF images. At the least, I could have simply WinZipped them. TIFFs compress very nicely, as much as 98% (typically in the 80% range) using WinZip. But, I did not do that. Fortunately, if I change my mind, the disks I used were DVD+RW.

Having used DVD RWs is not a plus. If you value the data put it on regular DVD-R. The RWs are not even recomended for back-ups. Only for temportary storage such as moving data from one machine to another.

I use DVD RW’s as temporary backup until I’m ready to archive to DVD-R media. I scan a bunch of photographs and before editing I make a copy of these initial scans to RW’s. As I am editing, I copy the edit versions to RW’s. After I’m finished, a week or two later I then make my final archives to DVD-R media.

When I first got my DVD burner I purchased Memorex RW media because that’s what was available. I had problems on some burns and was finally able to buy higher quality Verbatim DataLifePlus media. I haven’t had any problems since.

Myself I prefer not to use compression as I don’t completely trust it.

Curious. Is this an emotional response? Technically there is nothing wrong with it.
RH
Ron Hunter
May 23, 2004
Roger Halstead wrote:
On 22 May 2004 11:15:45 -0700, (Richard Alexander)
wrote:

Ron Hunter …

[snip]

You REALLY need to read the information on scanning at www.scantips.com.

Thank you for the link. I will look into it.

You are wasting time and storage space for no benefit. And as for using uncompressed TIFF format, WHY? You can use lossless TIFF compression (LZW) and save tons of space.

Why? Because I can…

It is true that I could have used lossless compression on the TIFF images. At the least, I could have simply WinZipped them. TIFFs compress very nicely, as much as 98% (typically in the 80% range) using WinZip. But, I did not do that. Fortunately, if I change my mind, the disks I used were DVD+RW.

Having used DVD RWs is not a plus. If you value the data put it on regular DVD-R. The RWs are not even recomended for back-ups. Only for temportary storage such as moving data from one machine to another.

I have a negative impression of LZW compression, after Unisys began demanding royalty payments for them. Even though the U.S. LZW patent expired 30 June 2003, I still generally avoid using the technique.

If you have the equipment and backup I’d not be concerned.
Myself I prefer not to use compression as I don’t completely trust it.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

You don’t? I suppose you don’t trust the sun to come up in the east tomorrow either. While compressing many files together does increase the possiblilty of loss, I don’t recall ever having a problem with getting back a file that I have compressed in the past 20 years or so. Have you had a problem with one?
RH
Roger Halstead
May 23, 2004
Myself I prefer not to use compression as I don’t completely trust it.

Curious. Is this an emotional response? Technically there is nothing wrong with it.

Yup. After years in the industry with compression that kinda, sorta worked, most of the time I just developed a distrust of any compression. OTOH my D70 used compressed TIFs. It’s that or jpgs. <:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
RH
Roger Halstead
May 23, 2004
On Sun, 23 May 2004 03:25:24 -0500, Ron Hunter
wrote:

Roger Halstead wrote:
On 22 May 2004 11:15:45 -0700, (Richard Alexander)
wrote:

Ron Hunter …

[snip]

You REALLY need to read the information on scanning at www.scantips.com.

Thank you for the link. I will look into it.

You are wasting time and storage space for no benefit. And as for using uncompressed TIFF format, WHY? You can use lossless TIFF compression (LZW) and save tons of space.

Why? Because I can…

It is true that I could have used lossless compression on the TIFF images. At the least, I could have simply WinZipped them. TIFFs compress very nicely, as much as 98% (typically in the 80% range) using WinZip. But, I did not do that. Fortunately, if I change my mind, the disks I used were DVD+RW.

Having used DVD RWs is not a plus. If you value the data put it on regular DVD-R. The RWs are not even recomended for back-ups. Only for temportary storage such as moving data from one machine to another.

I have a negative impression of LZW compression, after Unisys began demanding royalty payments for them. Even though the U.S. LZW patent expired 30 June 2003, I still generally avoid using the technique.

If you have the equipment and backup I’d not be concerned.
Myself I prefer not to use compression as I don’t completely trust it.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

You don’t? I suppose you don’t trust the sun to come up in the east tomorrow either.

Not really. We haven’t seen the sun in about a week and it was mid day. Course we’ve had our years allotment of rain in less than 6 months too. Lower Michigan is definitely no loner considered a drought area.

While compressing many files together does increase
the possiblilty of loss, I don’t recall ever having a problem with getting back a file that I have compressed in the past 20 years or so. Have you had a problem with one?

Not in a long time. It’s just I’ve been around compression for so long I learned to distrust it in the early days and it’s difficult to get over.<:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
RH
Ron Hunter
May 23, 2004
Roger Halstead wrote:
On Sun, 23 May 2004 03:25:24 -0500, Ron Hunter
wrote:

Roger Halstead wrote:

On 22 May 2004 11:15:45 -0700, (Richard Alexander)
wrote:

Ron Hunter …

[snip]

You REALLY need to read the information on scanning at www.scantips.com.

Thank you for the link. I will look into it.

You are wasting time and storage space for no benefit. And as for using uncompressed TIFF format, WHY? You can use lossless TIFF compression (LZW) and save tons of space.

Why? Because I can…

It is true that I could have used lossless compression on the TIFF images. At the least, I could have simply WinZipped them. TIFFs compress very nicely, as much as 98% (typically in the 80% range) using WinZip. But, I did not do that. Fortunately, if I change my mind, the disks I used were DVD+RW.

Having used DVD RWs is not a plus. If you value the data put it on regular DVD-R. The RWs are not even recomended for back-ups. Only for temportary storage such as moving data from one machine to another.

I have a negative impression of LZW compression, after Unisys began demanding royalty payments for them. Even though the U.S. LZW patent expired 30 June 2003, I still generally avoid using the technique.

If you have the equipment and backup I’d not be concerned.
Myself I prefer not to use compression as I don’t completely trust it.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

You don’t? I suppose you don’t trust the sun to come up in the east tomorrow either.

Not really. We haven’t seen the sun in about a week and it was mid day. Course we’ve had our years allotment of rain in less than 6 months too. Lower Michigan is definitely no loner considered a drought area.

While compressing many files together does increase
the possiblilty of loss, I don’t recall ever having a problem with getting back a file that I have compressed in the past 20 years or so. Have you had a problem with one?

Not in a long time. It’s just I’ve been around compression for so long I learned to distrust it in the early days and it’s difficult to get over.<:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
My niece in Chicago was complaining about the rain as well. Looks like more on the way. Meanwhile, it is rather dry in Texas for this time of year.

It is rather difficult to avoid compression these days as most cameras do JPEG as a default. So far, flash card capacity has been able to keep up with increasing sensor size, so there is really little excuse for the rather aggressive compression used by some cameras. I would rather have control over it, but few cameras give more than minimal control of this aspect.
My objection has nothing to do with reliability, but rather with the lossy compression (JPEG), tossing data I might WANT. I would rather have an option to save it all.
One can always compress the picture data later, but once JPEG tosses data, it’s gone for ever.
PE
phoney.email
May 23, 2004
On Sun, 23 May 2004 03:25:24 -0500, Ron Hunter
wrote:

Myself I prefer not to use compression as I don’t completely trust it.

You don’t? I suppose you don’t trust the sun to come up in the east tomorrow either. While compressing many files together does increase the possiblilty of loss, I don’t recall ever having a problem with getting back a file that I have compressed in the past 20 years or so. Have you had a problem with one?

I don’t know about Roger, but I’ve certainly had many problems.

If the medium goes bad and a single bit is lost the whole compressed file is gone as well. (I trust checksums even less than compression.) In my experience all the so-called "repair" option does is *try* to delete the offending file from the archive so one can at least get at the rest. The key word here being "try". More often than not, all subsequent files – even it perfectly OK – may end up being inaccessible as well.

Now then, if a few bits go bad on an uncompressed file, given the right tools (if the image editing program refuses to open such a file, although some are more forgiving than others) one will be able to open and recover most of the image. The same goes for sound files.

So, I for one, am with Roger on this one. I wouldn’t compress anything I want to keep.

Don.
RH
Ron Hunter
May 23, 2004
Don wrote:
On Sun, 23 May 2004 03:25:24 -0500, Ron Hunter
wrote:

Myself I prefer not to use compression as I don’t completely trust it.

You don’t? I suppose you don’t trust the sun to come up in the east tomorrow either. While compressing many files together does increase the possiblilty of loss, I don’t recall ever having a problem with getting back a file that I have compressed in the past 20 years or so. Have you had a problem with one?

I don’t know about Roger, but I’ve certainly had many problems.
If the medium goes bad and a single bit is lost the whole compressed file is gone as well. (I trust checksums even less than compression.) In my experience all the so-called "repair" option does is *try* to delete the offending file from the archive so one can at least get at the rest. The key word here being "try". More often than not, all subsequent files – even it perfectly OK – may end up being inaccessible as well.

Now then, if a few bits go bad on an uncompressed file, given the right tools (if the image editing program refuses to open such a file, although some are more forgiving than others) one will be able to open and recover most of the image. The same goes for sound files.
So, I for one, am with Roger on this one. I wouldn’t compress anything I want to keep.

Don.

Don,
That’s up to you. You are paying. For me, compression just makes sense. I don’t compress multiple pictures into a single file for archiving, but since most of my pictures are jpeg anyway, there really isn’t any option. For those I scan, I compress .tif files, one picture per archive. At least that limits my loss potential.
MM
Marvin Margoshes
May 23, 2004
"Ron Hunter" wrote in message
Roger Halstead wrote:
On 22 May 2004 11:15:45 -0700, (Richard Alexander)
wrote:

Ron Hunter wrote in message
news:…
[snip]

You REALLY need to read the information on scanning at
www.scantips.com.
Thank you for the link. I will look into it.

You are wasting time and storage space for no benefit. And as for using uncompressed TIFF format, WHY? You can use lossless TIFF compression (LZW) and save tons of space.

Why? Because I can…

It is true that I could have used lossless compression on the TIFF images. At the least, I could have simply WinZipped them. TIFFs compress very nicely, as much as 98% (typically in the 80% range) using WinZip. But, I did not do that. Fortunately, if I change my mind, the disks I used were DVD+RW.

Having used DVD RWs is not a plus. If you value the data put it on regular DVD-R. The RWs are not even recomended for back-ups. Only for temportary storage such as moving data from one machine to another.

I have a negative impression of LZW compression, after Unisys began demanding royalty payments for them. Even though the U.S. LZW patent expired 30 June 2003, I still generally avoid using the technique.

If you have the equipment and backup I’d not be concerned.
Myself I prefer not to use compression as I don’t completely trust it.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

You don’t? I suppose you don’t trust the sun to come up in the east tomorrow either. While compressing many files together does increase the possiblilty of loss, I don’t recall ever having a problem with getting back a file that I have compressed in the past 20 years or so. Have you had a problem with one?

I have some Zip disks that I compressed in Win95. I can’t open them now unless I can find a computer with Win95. Or unless I could install Win95 in my WinxP computer. But I figure that I haven’t missed the files for several years, so they probably aren’t important. Yes, I know – it is the story of the fox and the grapes.
XT
xalinai_Two
May 23, 2004
On Sun, 23 May 2004 13:48:38 -0400, "Marvin Margoshes" wrote:

I have some Zip disks that I compressed in Win95. I can’t open them now unless I can find a computer with Win95. Or unless I could install Win95 in my WinxP computer. But I figure that I haven’t missed the files for several years, so they probably aren’t important. Yes, I know – it is the story of the fox and the grapes.

Rule number 378: If you want to save any information for more than three months don’t use a M$ proprietary format. Next software version might be unable to read it.

Rule number 379: Rule 378 doesn’t apply for data on Zip disks. The Zip disk will not last longer than two months.

Most of that data losses we had were from unreadable ZIP disks – more than on all floppies over 18 years of IT business. I count it as a data loss if a consultant arrives at the customer with the freshly copied ZIP disk useless, even if the data is still available in the company.

We switched to burning CDs when we found that burning CD-Rs and destroying them after use costs less than buying a ZIP disk and using it until it becomes useless.

Michael
RH
Ron Hunter
May 24, 2004
Marvin Margoshes wrote:

"Ron Hunter" wrote in message

Roger Halstead wrote:

On 22 May 2004 11:15:45 -0700, (Richard Alexander)
wrote:

Ron Hunter wrote in message

news:…

[snip]

You REALLY need to read the information on scanning at

www.scantips.com.

Thank you for the link. I will look into it.

You are wasting time and storage space for no benefit. And as for using uncompressed TIFF format, WHY? You can use lossless TIFF compression (LZW) and save tons of space.

Why? Because I can…

It is true that I could have used lossless compression on the TIFF images. At the least, I could have simply WinZipped them. TIFFs compress very nicely, as much as 98% (typically in the 80% range) using WinZip. But, I did not do that. Fortunately, if I change my mind, the disks I used were DVD+RW.

Having used DVD RWs is not a plus. If you value the data put it on regular DVD-R. The RWs are not even recomended for back-ups. Only for temportary storage such as moving data from one machine to another.

I have a negative impression of LZW compression, after Unisys began demanding royalty payments for them. Even though the U.S. LZW patent expired 30 June 2003, I still generally avoid using the technique.

If you have the equipment and backup I’d not be concerned.
Myself I prefer not to use compression as I don’t completely trust it.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

You don’t? I suppose you don’t trust the sun to come up in the east tomorrow either. While compressing many files together does increase the possiblilty of loss, I don’t recall ever having a problem with getting back a file that I have compressed in the past 20 years or so. Have you had a problem with one?

I have some Zip disks that I compressed in Win95. I can’t open them now unless I can find a computer with Win95. Or unless I could install Win95 in my WinxP computer. But I figure that I haven’t missed the files for several years, so they probably aren’t important. Yes, I know – it is the story of the fox and the grapes.
There is no reason why you can’t read those files. I have floppies I created before 1995 on an AtariST that I can read on my WinXP machine. Perhaps you just need the right program….
P
pooua
May 24, 2004
Ron Hunter …

[snip]

There is no reason why you can’t read those files.

*cough* [Microsoft] *cough*

I have floppies I created before 1995 on an AtariST that I can read on my WinXP machine.

Does the AtariST use a proprietary compression scheme?

Perhaps you just need the right program….

Most likely he needs Windows 95’s command.com.

Between the OS changes and the Zip format, he may have to do a lot of work to get his files back.
P
pooua
May 24, 2004
Roger Halstead …

[snip]

Having used DVD RWs is not a plus. If you value the data put it on regular DVD-R. The RWs are not even recomended for back-ups. Only for temportary storage such as moving data from one machine to another.

Frankly, no home-burned DVD or CD is that great an idea for archival purposes. All of them are based on dyes, and are inherently unstable. If treated with care, they probably will last a long time. Keep them out of bright light (especially sunlight) and away from temperature extremes. Keep the humidity low. But, home-burned CDs and DVDs are not meant to be long-term storage or archival media.

I believe that magnetic media, such as tape and hard drives, offer more reliable archival storage for the home user. It is not easy to delete data from magnetic media, though it can become expensive to recover it.

I have hard drives whose only purpose is to provide archival storage. I connect them briefly to my computer for synchronization, then put them in anti-static bags and return them to a fireproof safe. This is not the final solution I would like to use, but it is the best I can do under my present circumstances.

I also burn to both CD and DVD media. So far, they have worked reliably for me, but I don’t take chances.

I have a negative impression of LZW compression, after Unisys began demanding royalty payments for them. Even though the U.S. LZW patent expired 30 June 2003, I still generally avoid using the technique.

If you have the equipment and backup I’d not be concerned.
Myself I prefer not to use compression as I don’t completely trust it.

Generally, I’m a big advocate of data compression, but I’ve had compressed file corruption, too. As for archival purposes, I prefer to have as few layers of complexity in the path of using the file as possible.

BTW, I have Iomega 2 Gig Ditto tapes that I used to back up my hard drive several years ago. Unfortunately, I cannot access that data, because I cannot get the tape drive to work. I’ve cleaned the drive several times, but it simply unspools the tape from the spindle. That was when I could even install the tape drive on my computer. Currently, the Ditto tape software locks up during install when I try to install it on my machines. So, I’m not too pleased with tapes right now.
P
pooua
May 24, 2004
Ron Hunter …

[snip]

Go here:
www.scantips.com

It will explain why scanning at 600DPI would be a waste of time and disk space for prints.

I like the comment he made, "If you aren’t sure what your future intentions for the image might be, and won’t be able to scan it again, then it’s probably best to err on the large side (if storage space allows, up to reasonable amounts anyway)." Go and do thou likewise.
RH
Ron Hunter
May 24, 2004
Richard Alexander wrote:
Ron Hunter …

[snip]

There is no reason why you can’t read those files.

*cough* [Microsoft] *cough*

I have floppies I created before 1995 on an AtariST that I can read on my WinXP machine.

Does the AtariST use a proprietary compression scheme?

No, it didn’t. Zip compression was available, and many of the files are compressed, but Winzip handles them.

Perhaps you just need the right program….

Most likely he needs Windows 95’s command.com.

Between the OS changes and the Zip format, he may have to do a lot of work to get his files back.
RH
Ron Hunter
May 24, 2004
Richard Alexander wrote:

Ron Hunter …

[snip]

Go here:
www.scantips.com

It will explain why scanning at 600DPI would be a waste of time and disk space for prints.

I like the comment he made, "If you aren’t sure what your future intentions for the image might be, and won’t be able to scan it again, then it’s probably best to err on the large side (if storage space allows, up to reasonable amounts anyway)." Go and do thou likewise.

Note that ‘reasonable’ in the statement. Scanning a print at anything over 300dpi isn’t likely to result in any improved detail. Just to be sure, I scanned some old prints at 600dpi and there was no gain but larger file size and slower scanning. In some cases, the lens of the camera, or the flatness of the film was so bad that scanning at 100dpi would have been adequate. Now if you are dealing with certain types of large format pictures, you might find more detail that I see with old snapshots.
XT
xalinai_Two
May 24, 2004
On 23 May 2004 23:21:09 -0700, (Richard Alexander)
wrote:

Roger Halstead …

[snip]

Having used DVD RWs is not a plus. If you value the data put it on regular DVD-R. The RWs are not even recomended for back-ups. Only for temportary storage such as moving data from one machine to another.

Frankly, no home-burned DVD or CD is that great an idea for archival purposes. All of them are based on dyes, and are inherently unstable. If treated with care, they probably will last a long time. Keep them out of bright light (especially sunlight) and away from temperature extremes. Keep the humidity low. But, home-burned CDs and DVDs are not meant to be long-term storage or archival media.

I do not believe that real long term storage (10years+) is still relevant for the home user with technical development as fast as it is.
Good media should last from introduction of a technique to it’s common obsolecence. For home burned CDs there are CD-R available where the manufacturer states 50 years or even 100 years under specified conditions – they will last 10 years without a problem in a light proof archive case.

After 10 years you will see a need to migrate to different media as only some reare oldfashioned computers will then read a full size CD.

I believe that magnetic media, such as tape and hard drives, offer more reliable archival storage for the home user. It is not easy to delete data from magnetic media, though it can become expensive to recover it.

Tell me what kind of tape a SOHO user can afford that is safe for more than five years.
Multi-Disk-RAID arrays are quite rare among SOHO users and with current disk capacities loss of a single disk drive will in most cases mean loss of the whole data (who got a backup of the 250 GB drive?)

I have a negative impression of LZW compression, after Unisys began demanding royalty payments for them. Even though the U.S. LZW patent expired 30 June 2003, I still generally avoid using the technique.

If you have the equipment and backup I’d not be concerned.
Myself I prefer not to use compression as I don’t completely trust it.

Generally, I’m a big advocate of data compression, but I’ve had compressed file corruption, too. As for archival purposes, I prefer to have as few layers of complexity in the path of using the file as possible.

Lossless compression doesn’t work too well for 24-bit photographic images. It is even worse for 48-bit images because of the noise.

Lossy compression is bad for archiving because it is lossy.

Hardware compression in storage devices (Tapes) works especially bad on large multimedia files (images, video, sound) and does not improve at all if the file contents is already compressed (JPG, DivX, MP3).

So compression only adds what you said: Another level of complexity. There is almost no benefit except for eliminating overhead from the backup process as catalogs compress good and empty areas at file ends on block devices can be avoided.

BTW, I have Iomega 2 Gig Ditto tapes that I used to back up my hard drive several years ago. Unfortunately, I cannot access that data, because I cannot get the tape drive to work. I’ve cleaned the drive several times, but it simply unspools the tape from the spindle. That was when I could even install the tape drive on my computer. Currently, the Ditto tape software locks up during install when I try to install it on my machines. So, I’m not too pleased with tapes right now.

That’s not the tape, that’s Iomega. If Iomega devices were less cheap but more reliable and the media less expensive it could have been a real success. As it is it only sucks.

Michael
N
nomail
May 24, 2004
Xalinai wrote:

Generally, I’m a big advocate of data compression, but I’ve had compressed file corruption, too. As for archival purposes, I prefer to have as few layers of complexity in the path of using the file as possible.

Lossless compression doesn’t work too well for 24-bit photographic images. It is even worse for 48-bit images because of the noise.

For 48 bits you are right. Compressed images can even be larger than uncompressed images. For 24 bits images you are wrong: LZW compression usually saves you 50% or even a bit more. I just took a random image from my digital SLR camera:

48 bits, uncompressed: 34,5 MB
48 bits, compressed: 40,5 MB
24 bits, uncrompressed: 17,3 MB
24 bits, compressed: 7,7 MB


Johan W. Elzenga johan<<at>>johanfoto.nl Editor / Photographer http://www.johanfoto.nl/
MM
Marvin Margoshes
May 24, 2004
"Ron Hunter" wrote in message
Marvin Margoshes wrote:

"Ron Hunter" wrote in message

Roger Halstead wrote:

On 22 May 2004 11:15:45 -0700, (Richard Alexander)
wrote:

Ron Hunter wrote in message

news:…

[snip]

You REALLY need to read the information on scanning at

www.scantips.com.

Thank you for the link. I will look into it.

You are wasting time and storage space for no benefit. And as for using uncompressed TIFF format, WHY? You can use lossless TIFF compression (LZW) and save tons of space.

Why? Because I can…

It is true that I could have used lossless compression on the TIFF images. At the least, I could have simply WinZipped them. TIFFs compress very nicely, as much as 98% (typically in the 80% range) using WinZip. But, I did not do that. Fortunately, if I change my mind, the disks I used were DVD+RW.

Having used DVD RWs is not a plus. If you value the data put it on regular DVD-R. The RWs are not even recomended for back-ups. Only for temportary storage such as moving data from one machine to another.

I have a negative impression of LZW compression, after Unisys began demanding royalty payments for them. Even though the U.S. LZW patent expired 30 June 2003, I still generally avoid using the technique.

If you have the equipment and backup I’d not be concerned.
Myself I prefer not to use compression as I don’t completely trust it.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

You don’t? I suppose you don’t trust the sun to come up in the east tomorrow either. While compressing many files together does increase the possiblilty of loss, I don’t recall ever having a problem with getting back a file that I have compressed in the past 20 years or so. Have you had a problem with one?

I have some Zip disks that I compressed in Win95. I can’t open them now unless I can find a computer with Win95. Or unless I could install
Win95 in
my WinxP computer. But I figure that I haven’t missed the files for
several
years, so they probably aren’t important. Yes, I know – it is the
story of
the fox and the grapes.
There is no reason why you can’t read those files. I have floppies I created before 1995 on an AtariST that I can read on my WinXP machine. Perhaps you just need the right program….

MS included proprietary compression software in Win95 because they had lost a patent infringment suit that another company brought against the compression software that had offered before. It was only in Win95. I’ve not seen any other compression software that would read files compressed in the Win95 software.
B
Brian
May 24, 2004
Voivod wrote:
Because commercially produced CD media is pressed, not burned.

Commercially replicated CDs are molded, not pressed.
B
Brian
May 24, 2004
You will always find somebody with a story of an uncle who smoked three packs a day and lived a hundred years.
That doesn’t make smoking any safer for the rest of us.
Store your precious data in CDs if you are too broke to buy hard drives, your problem.
As you said wisely: whatever

Not that your point isn’t valid, but at the same time just because that UK rag ran this story doesn’t make it absolutely true, either…
RH
Ron Hunter
May 24, 2004
Marvin Margoshes wrote:
"Ron Hunter" wrote in message

Marvin Margoshes wrote:

"Ron Hunter" wrote in message

Roger Halstead wrote:

On 22 May 2004 11:15:45 -0700, (Richard Alexander)
wrote:

Ron Hunter wrote in message

news:…

[snip]

You REALLY need to read the information on scanning at

www.scantips.com.

Thank you for the link. I will look into it.

You are wasting time and storage space for no benefit. And as for using uncompressed TIFF format, WHY? You can use lossless TIFF compression (LZW) and save tons of space.

Why? Because I can…

It is true that I could have used lossless compression on the TIFF images. At the least, I could have simply WinZipped them. TIFFs compress very nicely, as much as 98% (typically in the 80% range) using WinZip. But, I did not do that. Fortunately, if I change my mind, the disks I used were DVD+RW.

Having used DVD RWs is not a plus. If you value the data put it on regular DVD-R. The RWs are not even recomended for back-ups. Only for temportary storage such as moving data from one machine to another.

I have a negative impression of LZW compression, after Unisys began demanding royalty payments for them. Even though the U.S. LZW patent expired 30 June 2003, I still generally avoid using the technique.

If you have the equipment and backup I’d not be concerned.
Myself I prefer not to use compression as I don’t completely trust it.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

You don’t? I suppose you don’t trust the sun to come up in the east tomorrow either. While compressing many files together does increase the possiblilty of loss, I don’t recall ever having a problem with getting back a file that I have compressed in the past 20 years or so. Have you had a problem with one?

I have some Zip disks that I compressed in Win95. I can’t open them now unless I can find a computer with Win95. Or unless I could install

Win95 in

my WinxP computer. But I figure that I haven’t missed the files for

several

years, so they probably aren’t important. Yes, I know – it is the

story of

the fox and the grapes.

There is no reason why you can’t read those files. I have floppies I created before 1995 on an AtariST that I can read on my WinXP machine. Perhaps you just need the right program….

MS included proprietary compression software in Win95 because they had lost a patent infringment suit that another company brought against the compression software that had offered before. It was only in Win95. I’ve not seen any other compression software that would read files compressed in the Win95 software.
I never used any compression other than Winzip in Win95. Are you saying you compressed your files via the OS? If so, then a Win95 machine should be able to uncompress and rerecord you files.
T
TCS
May 24, 2004
On Mon, 24 May 2004 16:06:44 -0500, Ron Hunter wrote:
Marvin Margoshes wrote:
"Ron Hunter" wrote in message

Marvin Margoshes wrote:

"Ron Hunter" wrote in message

Roger Halstead wrote:

On 22 May 2004 11:15:45 -0700, (Richard Alexander)
wrote:

Ron Hunter wrote in message

news:…

[snip]

You REALLY need to read the information on scanning at

www.scantips.com.

Thank you for the link. I will look into it.

You are wasting time and storage space for no benefit. And as for using uncompressed TIFF format, WHY? You can use lossless TIFF compression (LZW) and save tons of space.

Why? Because I can…

It is true that I could have used lossless compression on the TIFF images. At the least, I could have simply WinZipped them. TIFFs compress very nicely, as much as 98% (typically in the 80% range) using WinZip. But, I did not do that. Fortunately, if I change my mind, the disks I used were DVD+RW.

Having used DVD RWs is not a plus. If you value the data put it on regular DVD-R. The RWs are not even recomended for back-ups. Only for temportary storage such as moving data from one machine to another.

I have a negative impression of LZW compression, after Unisys began demanding royalty payments for them. Even though the U.S. LZW patent expired 30 June 2003, I still generally avoid using the technique.

If you have the equipment and backup I’d not be concerned.
Myself I prefer not to use compression as I don’t completely trust it.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

You don’t? I suppose you don’t trust the sun to come up in the east tomorrow either. While compressing many files together does increase the possiblilty of loss, I don’t recall ever having a problem with getting back a file that I have compressed in the past 20 years or so. Have you had a problem with one?

I have some Zip disks that I compressed in Win95. I can’t open them now unless I can find a computer with Win95. Or unless I could install

Win95 in

my WinxP computer. But I figure that I haven’t missed the files for

several

years, so they probably aren’t important. Yes, I know – it is the

story of

the fox and the grapes.

There is no reason why you can’t read those files. I have floppies I created before 1995 on an AtariST that I can read on my WinXP machine. Perhaps you just need the right program….

MS included proprietary compression software in Win95 because they had lost a patent infringment suit that another company brought against the compression software that had offered before. It was only in Win95. I’ve not seen any other compression software that would read files compressed in the Win95 software.
I never used any compression other than Winzip in Win95. Are you saying you compressed your files via the OS? If so, then a Win95 machine should be able to uncompress and rerecord you files.

DOS 6.0 had a stolen copy of doublespace.

By the time win95 came out, MS paid off a shitload of money to symantec for the stolen software and renamed it drivespace.
RH
Roger Halstead
May 24, 2004
I have some Zip disks that I compressed in Win95. I can’t open them now unless I can find a computer with Win95. Or unless I could install Win95 in my WinxP computer. But I figure that I haven’t missed the files for several years, so they probably aren’t important. Yes, I know – it is the story of the fox and the grapes.
There is no reason why you can’t read those files. I have floppies I

They are FAT 16 compressed with an old algorithm.

created before 1995 on an AtariST that I can read on my WinXP machine.

I believe that is far beyond the expected life of floppies.I have thrown most of them away and I had a pile of them. I find quite a few… 10 to 15% are no longer readable after 3 or 4 years. OTOH I have both Zip and floppy disks that are old and readable. I have a copy of Borland C++ that is all on the original floppies and they are still good.

Perhaps you just need the right program….

Win 95, or possibly 98 or 98 SE.
Then again, there are a number of compression/zip apps such as WinZip that *might* be able to unzip those files.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
S
sunlei20042004
May 25, 2004
Download AlbumFamiy software at http://www.albumsfamily.com to help you
MM
Marvin Margoshes
May 25, 2004
"Ron Hunter" wrote in message
Marvin Margoshes wrote:
"Ron Hunter" wrote in message

Marvin Margoshes wrote:

"Ron Hunter" wrote in message

Roger Halstead wrote:

On 22 May 2004 11:15:45 -0700, (Richard Alexander)
wrote:

Ron Hunter wrote in message

news:…

[snip]

You REALLY need to read the information on scanning at

www.scantips.com.

Thank you for the link. I will look into it.

You are wasting time and storage space for no benefit. And as for using uncompressed TIFF format, WHY? You can use lossless TIFF compression (LZW) and save tons of space.

Why? Because I can…

It is true that I could have used lossless compression on the TIFF images. At the least, I could have simply WinZipped them. TIFFs compress very nicely, as much as 98% (typically in the 80% range) using WinZip. But, I did not do that. Fortunately, if I change my mind, the disks I used were DVD+RW.

Having used DVD RWs is not a plus. If you value the data put it on regular DVD-R. The RWs are not even recomended for back-ups. Only for temportary storage such as moving data from one machine to another.

I have a negative impression of LZW compression, after Unisys began demanding royalty payments for them. Even though the U.S. LZW patent expired 30 June 2003, I still generally avoid using the technique.

If you have the equipment and backup I’d not be concerned.
Myself I prefer not to use compression as I don’t completely trust
it.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

You don’t? I suppose you don’t trust the sun to come up in the east tomorrow either. While compressing many files together does increase the possiblilty of loss, I don’t recall ever having a problem with getting back a file that I have compressed in the past 20 years or so. Have you had a problem with one?

I have some Zip disks that I compressed in Win95. I can’t open them
now
unless I can find a computer with Win95. Or unless I could install

Win95 in

my WinxP computer. But I figure that I haven’t missed the files for

several

years, so they probably aren’t important. Yes, I know – it is the

story of

the fox and the grapes.

There is no reason why you can’t read those files. I have floppies I created before 1995 on an AtariST that I can read on my WinXP machine. Perhaps you just need the right program….

MS included proprietary compression software in Win95 because they had
lost
a patent infringment suit that another company brought against the compression software that had offered before. It was only in Win95.
I’ve
not seen any other compression software that would read files compressed
in
the Win95 software.
I never used any compression other than Winzip in Win95. Are you saying you compressed your files via the OS? If so, then a Win95 machine should be able to uncompress and rerecord you files.

Correct. But I don’t know anyone with a Win95 computer.
MM
Marvin Margoshes
May 25, 2004
"Roger Halstead" wrote in message
I have some Zip disks that I compressed in Win95. I can’t open them
now
unless I can find a computer with Win95. Or unless I could install
Win95 in
my WinxP computer. But I figure that I haven’t missed the files for
several
years, so they probably aren’t important. Yes, I know – it is the
story of
the fox and the grapes.
There is no reason why you can’t read those files. I have floppies I

They are FAT 16 compressed with an old algorithm.

created before 1995 on an AtariST that I can read on my WinXP machine.

I believe that is far beyond the expected life of floppies.I have thrown most of them away and I had a pile of them. I find quite a few… 10 to 15% are no longer readable after 3 or 4 years. OTOH I have both Zip and floppy disks that are old and readable. I have a copy of Borland C++ that is all on the original floppies and they are still good.

Perhaps you just need the right program….

Win 95, or possibly 98 or 98 SE.
Then again, there are a number of compression/zip apps such as WinZip that *might* be able to unzip those files.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

WinXP won’t even show the files. There is a compressed "disk" on the Zip disk. Perhaps there is a way to copy the whole Zip disk to a HD?
XT
xalinai_Two
May 25, 2004
On Mon, 24 May 2004 18:39:06 +0200, (Johan W.
Elzenga) wrote:

Xalinai wrote:

Generally, I’m a big advocate of data compression, but I’ve had compressed file corruption, too. As for archival purposes, I prefer to have as few layers of complexity in the path of using the file as possible.

Lossless compression doesn’t work too well for 24-bit photographic images. It is even worse for 48-bit images because of the noise.

For 48 bits you are right. Compressed images can even be larger than uncompressed images. For 24 bits images you are wrong: LZW compression usually saves you 50% or even a bit more. I just took a random image from my digital SLR camera:

48 bits, uncompressed: 34,5 MB
48 bits, compressed: 40,5 MB

This is what I expected.

24 bits, uncrompressed: 17,3 MB
24 bits, compressed: 7,7 MB

Here you were lucky. I seldom have reductions of more than 30% between compressed/uncompressed TIFF or zipping uncompressed TIFF or BMP files.

When writing data to a tape device that is advertised with a compression ratio of 200:100 (LTO) or 260:100 (AIT) having lots of compressed data will slow down your work a lot.

Michael


Johan W. Elzenga johan<<at>>johanfoto.nl Editor / Photographer http://www.johanfoto.nl/
N
nomail
May 25, 2004
Xalinai wrote:

For 48 bits you are right. Compressed images can even be larger than uncompressed images. For 24 bits images you are wrong: LZW compression usually saves you 50% or even a bit more. I just took a random image from my digital SLR camera:

48 bits, uncompressed: 34,5 MB
48 bits, compressed: 40,5 MB

This is what I expected.

24 bits, uncrompressed: 17,3 MB
24 bits, compressed: 7,7 MB

Here you were lucky. I seldom have reductions of more than 30% between compressed/uncompressed TIFF or zipping uncompressed TIFF or BMP files.

It depends very much on the image. A landscape image with some blue sky over it, may compress a lot better than an image with a lot of detail from top to bottom.


Johan W. Elzenga johan<<at>>johanfoto.nl Editor / Photographer http://www.johanfoto.nl/
S
Stephan
May 25, 2004
"Brian" wrote in message
You will always find somebody with a story of an uncle who smoked three packs a day and lived a hundred years.
That doesn’t make smoking any safer for the rest of us.
Store your precious data in CDs if you are too broke to buy hard drives, your problem.
As you said wisely: whatever

Not that your point isn’t valid, but at the same time just because that UK rag ran this story doesn’t make it absolutely true, either…

Look, I have no problem believing this story because lots of my CDs are unusable two years after recording them.
If I hold them to the light I can see little holes in them. And I use a pretty good brand, not cheapo CompUSA home brand crap.
I live in the tropics in a house cooled by the see breeze, OK, but still, my CD are in sleeves.
Now if you know better, go ahead and use CDs for along time archival, I don’t care really but don’t come along telling people CDs are safe.

Stephan
S
Stephan
May 25, 2004
"sun lei" wrote in message
Download AlbumFamiy software at http://www.albumsfamily.com to help you

Do you realize you just posted this in a Photoshop newsgroup? Hilarious!

Stephan
S
Stephan
May 25, 2004
"Ron Hunter" wrote in message
Richard Alexander wrote:
Ron Hunter wrote in message
news:…
[snip]

There is no reason why you can’t read those files.

*cough* [Microsoft] *cough*

I have floppies I created before 1995 on an AtariST that I can read on my WinXP machine.

Does the AtariST use a proprietary compression scheme?

No, it didn’t. Zip compression was available, and many of the files are compressed, but Winzip handles them.

Did you know Zip disks and WinZip are not exactly the same thing?

Stephan
B
Brian
May 25, 2004
Look, I have no problem believing this story because lots of my CDs are unusable two years after recording them.

Definitely something wrong with your burner or your media, then – I have CD-Rs that are way older than 2 years that read perfectly. I’m not saying they last forever, but when quality media is burned properly they definitely last more than 2 years.

Now if you know better, go ahead and use CDs for along time archival, I don’t care really but don’t come along telling people CDs are safe.

I sadi nothing of the sort, so why don’t you stop putting words in my mouth, asshole.
RH
Ron Hunter
May 25, 2004
Marvin Margoshes wrote:

"Ron Hunter" wrote in message

Marvin Margoshes wrote:

"Ron Hunter" wrote in message

Marvin Margoshes wrote:

"Ron Hunter" wrote in message

Roger Halstead wrote:

On 22 May 2004 11:15:45 -0700, (Richard Alexander)
wrote:

Ron Hunter wrote in message

news:…

[snip]

You REALLY need to read the information on scanning at

www.scantips.com.

Thank you for the link. I will look into it.

You are wasting time and storage space for no benefit. And as for using uncompressed TIFF format, WHY? You can use lossless TIFF compression (LZW) and save tons of space.

Why? Because I can…

It is true that I could have used lossless compression on the TIFF images. At the least, I could have simply WinZipped them. TIFFs compress very nicely, as much as 98% (typically in the 80% range) using WinZip. But, I did not do that. Fortunately, if I change my mind, the disks I used were DVD+RW.

Having used DVD RWs is not a plus. If you value the data put it on regular DVD-R. The RWs are not even recomended for back-ups. Only for temportary storage such as moving data from one machine to another.

I have a negative impression of LZW compression, after Unisys began demanding royalty payments for them. Even though the U.S. LZW patent expired 30 June 2003, I still generally avoid using the technique.

If you have the equipment and backup I’d not be concerned.
Myself I prefer not to use compression as I don’t completely trust

it.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

You don’t? I suppose you don’t trust the sun to come up in the east tomorrow either. While compressing many files together does increase the possiblilty of loss, I don’t recall ever having a problem with getting back a file that I have compressed in the past 20 years or so. Have you had a problem with one?

I have some Zip disks that I compressed in Win95. I can’t open them

now

unless I can find a computer with Win95. Or unless I could install

Win95 in

my WinxP computer. But I figure that I haven’t missed the files for

several

years, so they probably aren’t important. Yes, I know – it is the

story of

the fox and the grapes.

There is no reason why you can’t read those files. I have floppies I created before 1995 on an AtariST that I can read on my WinXP machine. Perhaps you just need the right program….

MS included proprietary compression software in Win95 because they had

lost

a patent infringment suit that another company brought against the compression software that had offered before. It was only in Win95.

I’ve

not seen any other compression software that would read files compressed

in

the Win95 software.

I never used any compression other than Winzip in Win95. Are you saying you compressed your files via the OS? If so, then a Win95 machine should be able to uncompress and rerecord you files.

Correct. But I don’t know anyone with a Win95 computer.
Surely you can find someone. Hint think schools. They usually have a collection of antique hardware….
P
pooua
May 25, 2004
"Stephan" …

[snip]

my CDs are
unusable two years after recording them.
If I hold them to the light I can see little holes in them. And I use a pretty good brand, not cheapo CompUSA home brand crap.
I live in the tropics in a house cooled by the see breeze, OK, but still, my CD are in sleeves.

I have heard of a fungus or bacteria that eats the aluminum part of pressed CDs. I wonder if there is a bug that eats the dyes in CD-R?
RH
Ron Hunter
May 25, 2004
Xalinai wrote:

On Mon, 24 May 2004 18:39:06 +0200, (Johan W.
Elzenga) wrote:

Xalinai wrote:

Generally, I’m a big advocate of data compression, but I’ve had compressed file corruption, too. As for archival purposes, I prefer to have as few layers of complexity in the path of using the file as possible.

Lossless compression doesn’t work too well for 24-bit photographic images. It is even worse for 48-bit images because of the noise.

For 48 bits you are right. Compressed images can even be larger than uncompressed images. For 24 bits images you are wrong: LZW compression usually saves you 50% or even a bit more. I just took a random image

from my digital SLR camera:

48 bits, uncompressed: 34,5 MB
48 bits, compressed: 40,5 MB

This is what I expected.

24 bits, uncrompressed: 17,3 MB
24 bits, compressed: 7,7 MB

Here you were lucky. I seldom have reductions of more than 30% between compressed/uncompressed TIFF or zipping uncompressed TIFF or BMP files.

When writing data to a tape device that is advertised with a compression ratio of 200:100 (LTO) or 260:100 (AIT) having lots of compressed data will slow down your work a lot.

Michael


Johan W. Elzenga johan<<at>>johanfoto.nl Editor / Photographer http://www.johanfoto.nl/
Compression depends largely on the nature of the original data. If you take pictures of trees and grass, you will get little help from compression. If you take picture of a lot of sky, or walls of a single color, or pattern, then you will get better compression.
RH
Roger Halstead
May 25, 2004
On Tue, 25 May 2004 18:17:11 GMT, "Stephan"
wrote:

"Brian" wrote in message
You will always find somebody with a story of an uncle who smoked three packs a day and lived a hundred years.
That doesn’t make smoking any safer for the rest of us.
Store your precious data in CDs if you are too broke to buy hard drives, your problem.
As you said wisely: whatever

Not that your point isn’t valid, but at the same time just because that UK rag ran this story doesn’t make it absolutely true, either…

Look, I have no problem believing this story because lots of my CDs are unusable two years after recording them.
If I hold them to the light I can see little holes in them. And I use a pretty good brand, not cheapo CompUSA home brand crap.
I live in the tropics in a house cooled by the see breeze, OK, but still, my CD are in sleeves.
Now if you know better, go ahead and use CDs for along time archival, I don’t care really but don’t come along telling people CDs are safe.

In general they are and the industry says so as well.

OTOH, no media is infallible and magnetic is considered one of the lest safe for archiving.

Tapes and hard drives are normally used for rolling back ups where the data is refreshed on a continuing basis, not archiving.
You may have had bad luck, but currently quality CDs and DVDs are considered the longest lived method for storing data.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Stephan
S
Stephan
May 26, 2004
"Richard Alexander" wrote in message
"Stephan" wrote in message
news:<H4Msc.506$>…
[snip]

my CDs are
unusable two years after recording them.
If I hold them to the light I can see little holes in them. And I use a pretty good brand, not cheapo CompUSA home brand crap.
I live in the tropics in a house cooled by the see breeze, OK, but
still, my
CD are in sleeves.

I have heard of a fungus or bacteria that eats the aluminum part of pressed CDs. I wonder if there is a bug that eats the dyes in CD-R?

I never heard of that but it is exactly how some of the damage looks: like something that grows, something organic.
First a hole and then it spreads, a bit like fungus in a camera lens.

Stephan
S
Stephan
May 26, 2004
"Roger Halstead" wrote in message
On Tue, 25 May 2004 18:17:11 GMT, "Stephan"
wrote:

You may have had bad luck, but currently quality CDs and DVDs are considered the longest lived method for storing data.

Personally I think a hard drive is much safer (two hard drives in fact)

Stephan
S
Stephan
May 26, 2004
"Brian" wrote in message

asshole.

I love you too

Stephan
S
Stuart
May 26, 2004
Brian wrote:

Not that your point isn’t valid, but at the same time just because that UK rag ran this story doesn’t make it absolutely true, either…

It is quite a respected broadsheet paper.

Stuart
B
Brian
May 26, 2004
It is quite a respected broadsheet paper.

It may be, but it seems that there are quite a number of well-respected voices providing very opposing views on this issue, and since enough time has not really passed to provide any actual real-world evidence it’s all conjecture at this point.

I’m not taking sides here; like many I have a large number of CD-Rs containing valuable data that I want to protect by whatever means necessary. I’m merely saying that all these folks who are claiming to have the absolute answer on this issue are not speaking from their upper orifice, if you catch my drift.
XT
xalinai_Two
May 26, 2004
On Tue, 25 May 2004 23:47:27 GMT, Roger Halstead
wrote:

On Tue, 25 May 2004 18:17:11 GMT, "Stephan"
wrote:

"Brian" wrote in message
You will always find somebody with a story of an uncle who smoked three packs a day and lived a hundred years.
That doesn’t make smoking any safer for the rest of us.
Store your precious data in CDs if you are too broke to buy hard drives, your problem.
As you said wisely: whatever

Not that your point isn’t valid, but at the same time just because that UK rag ran this story doesn’t make it absolutely true, either…

Look, I have no problem believing this story because lots of my CDs are unusable two years after recording them.
If I hold them to the light I can see little holes in them. And I use a pretty good brand, not cheapo CompUSA home brand crap.
I live in the tropics in a house cooled by the see breeze, OK, but still, my CD are in sleeves.
Now if you know better, go ahead and use CDs for along time archival, I don’t care really but don’t come along telling people CDs are safe.

In general they are and the industry says so as well.

OTOH, no media is infallible and magnetic is considered one of the lest safe for archiving.

Tapes and hard drives are normally used for rolling back ups where the data is refreshed on a continuing basis, not archiving.
You may have had bad luck, but currently quality CDs and DVDs are considered the longest lived method for storing data.

All kind of media is subject to aging.

All CD-Rs have a very thin "protection" for dye and reflective metal that is made from thin lacquer in a spin cover process. This may be less than perfect and lead to destruction of metal or dye depending on other enviromental influences.
Archive grade CD-Rs use gold instead of cheaper metals and more resistand dyes – gold isn’t subject to oxidation even if the protective coat is substandard.

DVD-Rs have metal and dye in the middle of two layers of polycarbonate. Their protection is much better as long as the seal around the border and the center hole is good. So with regard to longevity DVD-R should be the better choice, once the current overall problems with media quality are overcome.

Tape media is stressed when used. Either it is moved with high speed or the head drum tries to grind avay the magnetic particles. When not in use earth tries to erase data with its magnetic field or to copy it from one track to the next. Certain kinds of mold are fond of magnetig tapes. So media usage is checked in professional environments and after a certain number of uses the tapes are replaced. The number varies from around 20 write/verify cycles for DAT to more than 500 uses for DLT and LTO. Large tape archives always use more than one drive to be able to copy tapes without swapping the contents to disk.

Harddisks have some age limits too. Running permanently and in large numbers, the 500 000 MTBF hours of a server grade disk drive mean that you lose a disk every second year when you have 20 drives. Normal disk drives (standard consumer IDE) have a much lower MTBF, are designed for limited load cycles (being switched off regularly after a certain time, otherwise deduct 20% MTBF) still require efficient cooling (Environment not always between 16-23 degrees centigrade? Deduct 20% MTBF), and so on. Effectively, MTBF of a consumer grade disk drive can go down to less than 50 000 hours (5.7 years), so even with only two PCs and three disks each one disk may die per year.

Storing 80 GB of image data requires two mirrored disks (EUR 80 each). Storing 80 GB of image data on DVDs requires 20 DVD-R. DVD+R media costs EUR 39 for 25 disks, two sets for less than EUR 80.

Michael
J
john
May 26, 2004
In article ,
(Xalinai) wrote:

Harddisks have some age limits too. Running permanently and in large numbers, the 500 000 MTBF hours […]

500k hour MTBF? Is that correct?
P
pooua
May 26, 2004
"Stephan" …

[snip]

I have heard of a fungus or bacteria that eats the aluminum part of pressed CDs. I wonder if there is a bug that eats the dyes in CD-R?

I never heard of that but it is exactly how some of the damage looks: like something that grows, something organic.
First a hole and then it spreads, a bit like fungus in a camera lens.

I Googled up some news articles on the subject:

"Victor Cardenes, of Spain’s leading scientific research body, stumbled across the microscopic creature two years ago [1999], while visiting Belize. Friends complained that in the hot and sticky Central American climate, a CD had stopped working and had developed an odd discoloration that left parts of it virtually transparent.

"Dr Cardenes and colleagues at the Superior Council for Scientific Research in Madrid discovered a fungus was steadily eating through the supposedly indestructible disc. The fungus had burrowed into the CD from the outer edge, then devoured the thin aluminium layer and some of the data-storing polycarbonate resin.

"Dr Cardenes said: ‘It completely destroys the aluminium. It leaves nothing behind.’ Biologists at the council had never seen this fungus, but concluded that it belonged to a common genus called geotrichum."

"Scientist finds fungus that eats through compact discs" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F200 1%2F06%2F18%2Fwfung18.xml

"To that ever-growing list of panaceas, you may wish to add a fungal inhibitor—especially if you live in a tropical region. After receiving several reports of CDs rotting in the hot, humid countries of Central America, Spanish scientists have isolated a fungus belonging to the Geotrichum family that actually consumes the plastic exterior and aluminum substrate in compact discs. The fungus gets a foothold in the disc’s outer edge and gradually eats its way toward the center, eventually making the CD unplayable. According to one BBC report on the phenomenon, an infected disc brought back from Belize appeared to be developing a case of citrus mold."

Scientists: CD Rot For Real
http://www.stereophile.com/news/11073/

"Some fungi are known to live on plastics and polymers, but this is the first report of a CD being eaten by a fungus. The researchers believe that the spores probably entered the CD in Belize.

"The rarity of this phenomenon suggests that Belize’s high temperatures and tropical humidity were crucial. To find out more, the Spanish group has posted an offer on the internet to analyse unreadable CDs from anyone wanting to test their disks for fungal infection. They have also submitted their work to the journal Natur Wissenschaften."

Fungus eats CD
http://www.nature.com/nsu/010628/010628-11.html

I still haven’t seen an article that says the fungus eats the dyes, but if it eats the plastic, the dye won’t have a substrate.
P
pooua
May 26, 2004
Roger Halstead …

[snip]

Tapes and hard drives are normally used for rolling back ups where the data is refreshed on a continuing basis, not archiving.

Just a point… As long as the substrate is intact, the magnetic domains usually do not completely disappear. In fact, an alarm was raised several years ago (about a dozen years ago), when Los Alamos National Lab was able to image all the magnetic domains of a disk that had been overwritten 7 times (they were able to see the data from each writing, because the overwriting process does not perfectly overwrite the entire track, and they could distinguish which writing went with each set). Of course, the Lab has specialized equipment, and it would be expensive to recover data this way, at least with current technology. You may not be able to recover your data, but a future generation might, if it is stored on a hard, encased magnetic disk.

If you are serious about archiving your data, here is a service that may help you:

"HD-Rosetta Archival Preservation Technologies and Services"

"Norsam’s patented HD-ROSETTA archival preservation process records microfilm-like images (analog images) onto a metal disc.

"Disc Size Options*

4" x 6" (105×148 mm) up to 540 pages per disc 4" Square up to 4000 pages per disc 2" Square or Round up to 200,000 pages per disc

"* Disc size and density vary by process. Available in nickel, stainless steel, silicon or other media."

http://www.norsam.com/rosetta.html

"HD-ROM (High-Density – Read Only Memory) is a high-capacity storage technology developed at Norsam Technologies in conjunction with an IBM research group that enables a disk to store hundreds of times as much information as a CD-ROM. HD-ROM uses a very narrow, finely-focused particle beam (charged gallium ions) to write data. HD-ROM technology can be used to write data on different types of media, such as metal or other durable materials, to create virtually indestructible storage."

HD-ROM
http://searchstorage.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid5_gci5 13370,00.html
S
Stephan
May 26, 2004
"Richard Alexander" wrote in message
"Stephan" wrote in message
news:<QGXsc.3753$>…
[snip]

I have heard of a fungus or bacteria that eats the aluminum part of pressed CDs. I wonder if there is a bug that eats the dyes in CD-R?

I never heard of that but it is exactly how some of the damage looks:
like
something that grows, something organic.
First a hole and then it spreads, a bit like fungus in a camera lens.

I Googled up some news articles on the subject:

"Victor Cardenes, of Spain’s leading scientific research body, stumbled across the microscopic creature two years ago [1999], while visiting Belize. Friends complained that in the hot and sticky Central American climate, a CD had stopped working and had developed an odd discoloration that left parts of it virtually transparent.
"Dr Cardenes and colleagues at the Superior Council for Scientific Research in Madrid discovered a fungus was steadily eating through the supposedly indestructible disc. The fungus had burrowed into the CD from the outer edge, then devoured the thin aluminium layer and some of the data-storing polycarbonate resin.

"Dr Cardenes said: ‘It completely destroys the aluminium. It leaves nothing behind.’ Biologists at the council had never seen this fungus, but concluded that it belonged to a common genus called geotrichum."
"Scientist finds fungus that eats through compact discs"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F200 1%2F06%2F18%2Fwfung18.xml
"To that ever-growing list of panaceas, you may wish to add a fungal inhibitor-especially if you live in a tropical region. After receiving several reports of CDs rotting in the hot, humid countries of Central America, Spanish scientists have isolated a fungus belonging to the Geotrichum family that actually consumes the plastic exterior and aluminum substrate in compact discs. The fungus gets a foothold in the disc’s outer edge and gradually eats its way toward the center, eventually making the CD unplayable. According to one BBC report on the phenomenon, an infected disc brought back from Belize appeared to be developing a case of citrus mold."

Scientists: CD Rot For Real
http://www.stereophile.com/news/11073/

"Some fungi are known to live on plastics and polymers, but this is the first report of a CD being eaten by a fungus. The researchers believe that the spores probably entered the CD in Belize.
"The rarity of this phenomenon suggests that Belize’s high temperatures and tropical humidity were crucial. To find out more, the Spanish group has posted an offer on the internet to analyse unreadable CDs from anyone wanting to test their disks for fungal infection. They have also submitted their work to the journal Natur Wissenschaften."

Fungus eats CD
http://www.nature.com/nsu/010628/010628-11.html

I still haven’t seen an article that says the fungus eats the dyes, but if it eats the plastic, the dye won’t have a substrate.

Thanks for the info!

Stephan
XT
xalinai_Two
May 27, 2004
On Wed, 26 May 2004 10:13:50 -0500, (jjs)
wrote:

In article ,
(Xalinai) wrote:

Harddisks have some age limits too. Running permanently and in large numbers, the 500 000 MTBF hours […]

500k hour MTBF? Is that correct?

The traditional value for server disks (57 years). Fujitsu claims 1.2 million hours (136 years) MTBF for their current U320 SCSI drives.

But then again, a EMC² Symmetrix with 96 drives is still prone to lose a drive every year and is thus configured in RAID pairs.

2.5" Notebook drives are usually specified for 200K to 300k hour MTBF, some newer 3.5" IDE/SATA drives between 500k and 600k hour.

Manufacturers tend only to advertise MTBF values if they are better than standard…

Michael
RH
Roger Halstead
May 27, 2004
On Thu, 27 May 2004 07:09:36 GMT, (Xalinai)
wrote:

On Wed, 26 May 2004 10:13:50 -0500, (jjs)
wrote:

In article ,
(Xalinai) wrote:

Harddisks have some age limits too. Running permanently and in large numbers, the 500 000 MTBF hours […]

500k hour MTBF? Is that correct?
And that is a mechanical failure, not data loss or corruption.

Most but not all data corruption is "user caused" and on a R/W drive it is easily done. That is the reason for the so called, "rolling backups. It is quite common to discover the file you need to restore was already corrupt on the last back up, or several backups. I’ve had to go back 3 generations for a number of files and I had one that took my all the way to my oldest back-up which was the yearly one that had been done about 5 months prior to the discovery.

I had a line noise problem here that corrupted a good many files, but a good UPS *with* line conditioning seems to have solved that problem.

However I was plagued with finding several corrupt files per week for quite a while and files I didn’t view often accumulated many errors.

I seriously doubt that those drives will guarantee data integrity as long as they claim MTBF.

They are looking at files that are regularly refreshed.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com.
The traditional value for server disks (57 years). Fujitsu claims 1.2 million hours (136 years) MTBF for their current U320 SCSI drives.
But then again, a EMC² Symmetrix with 96 drives is still prone to lose a drive every year and is thus configured in RAID pairs.
2.5" Notebook drives are usually specified for 200K to 300k hour MTBF, some newer 3.5" IDE/SATA drives between 500k and 600k hour.
Manufacturers tend only to advertise MTBF values if they are better than standard…

Michael
J
JJS
May 27, 2004
"Roger Halstead" wrote in message

500k hour MTBF? Is that correct?
And that is a mechanical failure, not data loss or corruption.

I find 500,000 hours a very unlikely MTBF for mechanical failure if you include data failures caused by mechanical issues within the drive (including the controller). 500, hours is approximately 57 years, and for all practical purposes far beyond the normal markting, manufacturing and support horizon. 50k hours virtually means _immortal_ in computer time scales.

Most but not all data corruption is "user caused" and on a R/W drive it is easily done.

I had a line noise problem here that corrupted a good many files, but a good UPS *with* line conditioning seems to have solved that problem.

Off-track because that’s not a user caused circumstance considered within the MTBF.

However I was plagued with finding several corrupt files per week for quite a while and files I didn’t view often accumulated many errors.
I seriously doubt that those drives will guarantee data integrity as long as they claim MTBF.

Now you are saying that MTBF does not consider data integrity even when the data is corrupted by the machine being rated? That makes utter nonsense out of the MTBF metric. It is like saying "This furnace will last 57 years but occasionally ti will efuse deadly monoxide into the vents and kill the occupants, but that’s not part of our metric."

So, I call this thread regarding 500k hours nonsense, off-track.
XT
xalinai_Two
May 27, 2004
On Thu, 27 May 2004 17:17:42 GMT, Roger Halstead
wrote:

On Thu, 27 May 2004 07:09:36 GMT, (Xalinai)
wrote:

On Wed, 26 May 2004 10:13:50 -0500, (jjs)
wrote:

In article ,
(Xalinai) wrote:

Harddisks have some age limits too. Running permanently and in large numbers, the 500 000 MTBF hours […]

500k hour MTBF? Is that correct?
And that is a mechanical failure, not data loss or corruption.
Most but not all data corruption is "user caused" and on a R/W drive it is easily done. That is the reason for the so called, "rolling backups. It is quite common to discover the file you need to restore was already corrupt on the last back up, or several backups. I’ve had to go back 3 generations for a number of files and I had one that took my all the way to my oldest back-up which was the yearly one that had been done about 5 months prior to the discovery.

It is a Good Thing[tm] to have monthly or yearly backup in addition to the rolling set.

More than twenty years ago I fiddled with some undocumented OS call that should be able to read or write physical disk blocks. When I finally had the correct syntax the first thing that happened was that I wrote (not knowig whether the call would read or write) a block of zeroes to sector 0 cylinder 0 head 0 of disk 0 of the computer system I was working on: The boot block.
The system was never booted for a month or so – but backup took place daily.

What do you think happened on May 19,1983 when we had to reboot the system?

Since then, one of my rules is _not_ to do routine backups of an operating system drive but _do_ backups whenever something important changes.

Michael
CJ
Charles Jones
May 27, 2004
In article ,
says…
Since then, one of my rules is _not_ to do routine backups of an operating system drive but _do_ backups whenever something important changes.

And one of the other rules is, "Don’t dink about with the boot sector"? 🙂


Charles Jones — Loveland, Colorado
ICQ: 29610755
AIM: LovelandCharles
Y!M: charlesjonesathpcom
MSN:
RH
Roger Halstead
May 27, 2004
On Thu, 27 May 2004 13:16:50 -0500, "jjs" wrote:

"Roger Halstead" wrote in message

500k hour MTBF? Is that correct?
And that is a mechanical failure, not data loss or corruption.

I find 500,000 hours a very unlikely MTBF for mechanical failure if you include data failures caused by mechanical issues within the drive (including the controller). 500, hours is approximately 57 years, and for all practical purposes far beyond the normal markting, manufacturing and support horizon. 50k hours virtually means _immortal_ in computer time scales.

Most but not all data corruption is "user caused" and on a R/W drive it is easily done.

I had a line noise problem here that corrupted a good many files, but a good UPS *with* line conditioning seems to have solved that problem.

Off-track because that’s not a user caused circumstance considered within the MTBF.

But it is a data integrity issue and data integrity is going to be far more sensitive an area than MTBF for mechanical issues.
User caused circumstances are not figured in the MTBF any way as they are outside the drive parameters.

However I was plagued with finding several corrupt files per week for quite a while and files I didn’t view often accumulated many errors.
I seriously doubt that those drives will guarantee data integrity as long as they claim MTBF.

Now you are saying that MTBF does not consider data integrity even when the data is corrupted by the machine being rated? That makes utter nonsense out

Yup.

of the MTBF metric.

Does, doesn’t it. <:-))

It is like saying "This furnace will last 57 years but occasionally ti will efuse deadly monoxide into the vents and kill the occupants, but that’s not part of our metric."

Yup.

Meaning MTBF is a relatively meaning less figure when it comes to data storage as the data is likely to be corrupted far sooner than the MTBF figure would lead, or mislead the user to believe.

However it is very much like saying this car will go 150,000 miles without requiring a major repair. Of course you have to stop and *refresh* the gas tank every 200 miles.

You might get by refreshing the data every 5 years, or every 10 years, but magnetic media is not know for it’s archival qualities.

So, I call this thread regarding 500k hours nonsense, off-track.

Basically true. The drive could last 50 years, but data on the media is reliable for only a fraction of that time.

Although MTBF is important, when it comes to magnetic media the real question is how long can you expect a file to remain intact with no degradation. Magnetic media is reliable, I’ll not argue that point, but the question then becomes reliable for what and how long.

I could probably use a series of drives for rolling backups for years without a problem. But for archival storage, how long could I put one on a shelf in storage and expect to get the data back without periodic refreshing?

Magnetically stored data starts deteriorating as soon as it is stored, but it remains readable in it’s entirety with 100% certainty for some time. That is the figure I’d like to see. Magnetic domains are not permanent and they are affected by neighboring domains.

As example would be an audio tape that had been in storage for 5 years with out being played or rewound. When you play it the thing it sounds strange. Then you realize you are hearing what sounds like distorted music in the background and it is! The magnetized domains on the tape are affecting the layer that was wound over them and the layer that it was wound over. Today’s Hard drives are far better than that, but the tracks are microscopically spaced. OTOH the domains are not nearly as strong as the ones on the tape.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
RH
Roger Halstead
May 27, 2004
On Thu, 27 May 2004 12:56:49 -0600, Charles Jones
wrote:

In article ,
says…
Since then, one of my rules is _not_ to do routine backups of an operating system drive but _do_ backups whenever something important changes.

And one of the other rules is, "Don’t dink about with the boot sector"?

Think positive. If it really was the boot sector… It could have been the engineering sector which would have rendered the drive completely useless. As users we can reload the boot sector. Not so the engineering sector.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
🙂
XT
xalinai_Two
May 28, 2004
On Thu, 27 May 2004 13:16:50 -0500, "jjs" wrote:

"Roger Halstead" wrote in message

500k hour MTBF? Is that correct?
And that is a mechanical failure, not data loss or corruption.

I find 500,000 hours a very unlikely MTBF for mechanical failure if you include data failures caused by mechanical issues within the drive (including the controller). 500, hours is approximately 57 years, and for all practical purposes far beyond the normal markting, manufacturing and support horizon. 50k hours virtually means _immortal_ in computer time scales.

First, not I am giving those valuses, disk drive manufacturers specify their drives for that value _under_optimum_conditions_.

Second MTBF is mean time between failure measured over the whole series of a certain model. So if one disk will survive a hundred years, the next may be dead after a day. And even more it is a mass factor – if you have only one or two disks you will probably never experience one of the extremes. If you are running a datacenter with actually hundreds of drives you will have drives working perfectly after five years and many others you need to replace after a shorter time.

Things become interesting if you combine stated MTBF hours and the manufacturers warranty. Warranties are designed in a way that you almost never have to fulfill the promise you make – lets assume 1 in 1000 cases. So a specified average lifespan of 57 years and a warranty for three years gives a different shape in of the distribution curve of failures over time than a two year warranty with a longer MTBF.

I seriously doubt that those drives will guarantee data integrity as long as they claim MTBF.

Now you are saying that MTBF does not consider data integrity even when the data is corrupted by the machine being rated? That makes utter nonsense out of the MTBF metric. It is like saying "This furnace will last 57 years but occasionally ti will efuse deadly monoxide into the vents and kill the occupants, but that’s not part of our metric."

F is for Failure. Not only mechanical failure but also for the magnetic surface. Don’t get confused about the lifetime of one recording on the drive and the lifetime of the surface and its ability to store new information. Moving data, operations that read and rewrite data on a disk (move it, defrag with different options) keep each recording fresh over a longer time.

Data can get lost on a harddisk if stored and never touched for a long time. The danger is lower than with tapes and their densely packed layers and still lower than a loss of data because of disks no longer able to rotate abter not being used for a long time, but it does exist.

Michael
H
Hecate
May 31, 2004
On Wed, 26 May 2004 07:30:59 GMT, "Stephan"
wrote:

"Roger Halstead" wrote in message
On Tue, 25 May 2004 18:17:11 GMT, "Stephan"
wrote:

You may have had bad luck, but currently quality CDs and DVDs are considered the longest lived method for storing data.

Personally I think a hard drive is much safer (two hard drives in fact)
I use DVD, a Firewire drive and an internal hard drive. Files are archived on DVD, exist as original files on an internal hard drive, are backed up using Second Copy to a Firewire drive, and are backed up in my Acronis image files as well. Generally, I have about 4 copies of everything.

Which is just as well as my C drive had a fit last Friday and I had to reinstall everything from scratch. However, True Image and my back ups meant I didn’t lose anything except a few emails which slipped through the cracks.



Hecate

veni, vidi, reliqui
H
Hecate
May 31, 2004
On Sat, 22 May 2004 12:07:15 +0200, (Johan W.
Elzenga) wrote:

So why on earth did you do that? There is absolutely no reason to keep images in 48 bit color.

I disagree, there definitely is. The original scan is your "negative". Having the original scan means you always have something to go back to should disaster strike (or you want to correct the image in a different way – i.e. use PSCS to make corrections to the 16 bit image using adjustment layers. Keep the file with the adjustment layers. You then have the chance to alter things around, or just have a file you can go back to at anytime.) You should only "downsample" when you are using the image for a specific purpose, thereby always retaining your master file. Storage is cheap and there’s no need to destroy your original scan just for the sake of making a smaller file.



Hecate

veni, vidi, reliqui
RH
Roger Halstead
May 31, 2004
On Mon, 31 May 2004 03:13:46 +0100, Hecate wrote:

On Wed, 26 May 2004 07:30:59 GMT, "Stephan"
wrote:

"Roger Halstead" wrote in message
On Tue, 25 May 2004 18:17:11 GMT, "Stephan"
wrote:

You may have had bad luck, but currently quality CDs and DVDs are considered the longest lived method for storing data.

Personally I think a hard drive is much safer (two hard drives in fact)
I use DVD, a Firewire drive and an internal hard drive. Files are archived on DVD, exist as original files on an internal hard drive, are backed up using Second Copy to a Firewire drive, and are backed up in my Acronis image files as well. Generally, I have about 4 copies of everything.

Which is just as well as my C drive had a fit last Friday and I had to reinstall everything from scratch. However, True Image and my back ups meant I didn’t lose anything except a few emails which slipped through the cracks.

Don’t yah just love a full image backup? A person can’t appreciate one until a catestropic failure.

I try to keep an updated image, or complete hard drive copy of drive
C. All data files are on other drives and backed up across the
network. Data files are backed up to CDs with the exception of images and they go on DVDs mainly due to the sheer volume.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


Hecate

veni, vidi, reliqui
S
Stephan
May 31, 2004
"Hecate" wrote in message
On Wed, 26 May 2004 07:30:59 GMT, "Stephan"
wrote:

"Roger Halstead" wrote in message
On Tue, 25 May 2004 18:17:11 GMT, "Stephan"
wrote:

You may have had bad luck, but currently quality CDs and DVDs are considered the longest lived method for storing data.

Personally I think a hard drive is much safer (two hard drives in fact)
I use DVD, a Firewire drive and an internal hard drive. Files are archived on DVD, exist as original files on an internal hard drive, are backed up using Second Copy to a Firewire drive, and are backed up in my Acronis image files as well. Generally, I have about 4 copies of everything.

Which is just as well as my C drive had a fit last Friday and I had to reinstall everything from scratch. However, True Image and my back ups meant I didn’t lose anything except a few emails which slipped through the cracks.

Acronis is the best thing around,
Unfortunately I have never been able to restore from CDs. Not really a problem since I have 5 HDs.

Stephan

Master Retouching Hair

Learn how to rescue details, remove flyaways, add volume, and enhance the definition of hair in any photo. We break down every tool and technique in Photoshop to get picture-perfect hair, every time.

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