CS RAW and New Camera

DH
Posted By
Desert Heat
Mar 6, 2006
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706
Replies
37
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Closed
I just purchased a EOS 1D Mark II N and using CS and Win XP.

Apparently my version of CS does not support this camera RAW. Anyone have any thoughts on how to manage this without purchasing an update (I am licensed owner of CS) or using the Canon or any other RAW converter. I have been using the Adobe RAW converter when I was using my 20D and basically liked the workflow when I shot in RAW. The Adobe website doesn’t seem to have this model listed for CS

Thanks

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– in 4 materials (clay versions included)

– 12 scenes

– 48 MacBook Pro 16″ mockups

– 6000 x 4500 px

BH
Bill Hilton
Mar 6, 2006
HOTMAIL writes …

Apparently my version of CS does not support this camera RAW. Anyone have any thoughts on how to manage this without purchasing an update

Probably your two choices come down to going to a DNG workflow and using CS RAW or switching to a new RAW converter.

I have been using the Adobe RAW converter when I was using my 20D and basically liked the workflow when I shot in RAW.

I used to feel the same way until I began using Capture One and (much later) RSE — now I rank CS RAW a weak third behind both of these and almost never use it unless I need something funky like the vignette feature. Change can be good 🙂

Bill
DH
Desert Heat
Mar 6, 2006
The Camera I bought is NOT supported by Adobe for version P/S CS since the camera came out AFTER the CS 2 was issued.

Either upgrade or play with some other RAW conversion.

I guess Adobe can be worse then Microsoft IMHO.

Thanks

"Bill Hilton" wrote in message
:> HOTMAIL writes …
: >
: >Apparently my version of CS does not support this camera RAW. : >Anyone have any thoughts on how to manage this without purchasing : >an update
:
: Probably your two choices come down to going to a DNG workflow and : using CS RAW or switching to a new RAW converter.
:
: > I have been using the Adobe RAW converter when I was using my : >20D and basically liked the workflow when I shot in RAW. :
: I used to feel the same way until I began using Capture One and (much : later) RSE — now I rank CS RAW a weak third behind both of these and : almost never use it unless I need something funky like the vignette : feature. Change can be good 🙂
:
: Bill
:
TT
Tropical Treat
Mar 6, 2006
HOTMAIL wrote:
I just purchased a EOS 1D Mark II N and using CS and Win XP.
Apparently my version of CS does not support this camera RAW. Anyone have any thoughts on how to manage this without purchasing an update (I am licensed owner of CS) or using the Canon or any other RAW converter. I have been using the Adobe RAW converter when I was using my 20D and basically liked the workflow when I shot in RAW. The Adobe website doesn’t seem to have this model listed for CS

Thanks

You’ll go a long way before finding a RAW converter better than Canon’s own Photo Professional. You can make most of the adjustments before development better than in CS and transfer the developed images to Photoshop. The cost is right and the quality is up there with the best of them. Plus it has batch processing. Great stuff if you forgot to white balance!
BP
Barry Pearson
Mar 6, 2006
HOTMAIL wrote:
The Camera I bought is NOT supported by Adobe for version P/S CS since the camera came out AFTER the CS 2 was issued.
[snip]

As Bill Hilton pointed out, your camera IS supported by CS. In fact, every camera that can be supported by CS2 / ACR 3.3 can be supported by CS / ACR 2.4. And the means to do so is free.

Use the DNG route.


DNG is better than sliced bread.
DNG images don’t become toast.
BH
Bill Hilton
Mar 6, 2006
Barry Pearson writes …

As Bill Hilton pointed out, your camera IS supported by CS. In fact, every camera that can be supported by CS2 / ACR 3.3 can be supported by CS / ACR 2.4. And the means to do so is free.

Does the DNG converter support his camera, the 1d Mark II N? I downloaded this a few weeks ago to see what all the fuss is about and for the version I have (DNG 2.4) this camera isn’t listed.

Bill
DH
Desert Heat
Mar 7, 2006
I tried the DNG and it was not opening up my RAW files

I called a local Photoshop GURU and they said that IT WILL NOT BE SUPPORTED if the CAMERA came OUT after a newer version of CS

"Bill Hilton" wrote in message
: >Barry Pearson writes …
: >
: >As Bill Hilton pointed out, your camera IS supported by CS. In fact, : >every camera that can be supported by CS2 / ACR 3.3 can be supported : >by CS / ACR 2.4. And the means to do so is free.
:
: Does the DNG converter support his camera, the 1d Mark II N? I : downloaded this a few weeks ago to see what all the fuss is about and : for the version I have (DNG 2.4) this camera isn’t listed. :
: Bill
:
T
Two
Mar 7, 2006
"HOTMAIL" wrote in message
I tried the DNG and it was not opening up my RAW files

I called a local Photoshop GURU and they said that IT WILL NOT BE SUPPORTED
if the CAMERA came OUT after a newer version of CS

Bullshit. Find another guru. Adobe releases new versions of RAW regardless of CS releases.
MR
Mike Russell
Mar 7, 2006
"HOTMAIL" wrote in message
I tried the DNG and it was not opening up my RAW files

I called a local Photoshop GURU and they said that IT WILL NOT BE SUPPORTED
if the CAMERA came OUT after a newer version of CS

Keep trying and you’ll get there. You want the latest version of the dng converter.
http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/detail.jsp?ftpID=3269

Although you cannot use the newer version of Camera Raw, you can run the DNG converter to convert your raw images to DNG format. You may then open the DNG files using ACR in CS.

Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com
TT
Tropical Treat
Mar 7, 2006
Two wrote:
"HOTMAIL" wrote in message
I tried the DNG and it was not opening up my RAW files

I called a local Photoshop GURU and they said that IT WILL NOT BE SUPPORTED
if the CAMERA came OUT after a newer version of CS

Bullshit. Find another guru. Adobe releases new versions of RAW regardless of CS releases.

Bullshit to you my friend.
Adobe do not support his camera in the camera raw feature of Photoshop CS. You have to stay in the upgrade path to have the latest stuff. There is nothing wrong with using Adobe’s DNG software to take the images off a flash card and put them in a folder accessable to Photoshop for editing. Why you would want to do this when so many other RAW developers are around is beyond me but that is the only way you can directly open a Canon RAW file of a format developed after any pareticular version of Photoshop reaches the end of it’s life.

[rant begins]

The first time ANY software developer produces a package that does 90% of what Photoshop does and promises to support it for a few years with simple upgrades, I’ll dump Photoshop like a hot rock. I think Adobe are criminal in the way the force you to spend more money for the same thing everyone else’s software does anyway.

[rant ends]
T
Two
Mar 7, 2006
"Tropical Treat" wrote

Bullshit to you my friend.
Adobe do not support his camera in the camera raw feature of Photoshop CS. You have to stay in the upgrade path to have the latest stuff.

So what am I misunderstanding?

Adobe DNG converter is a separate, free product, not tied to any version of Photoshop.
Adobe DNG updates are regularly released.
TT
Tropical Treat
Mar 7, 2006
Two wrote:
"Tropical Treat" wrote

Bullshit to you my friend.
Adobe do not support his camera in the camera raw feature of Photoshop CS. You have to stay in the upgrade path to have the latest stuff.

So what am I misunderstanding?

Adobe DNG converter is a separate, free product, not tied to any version of Photoshop.
Adobe DNG updates are regularly released.

There is some controversy about DNG. Free it may be but it is not part of Photoshop and it requires you to convert the original images to Adobe’s format. Where I learnt to add up this costs twice the disc space and twice the work to do what other software does with ease. Anyone who decided to discard their original files and embrace DNG ‘may’ be sacrificing a great deal of processing ability other RAW converters offer.

For example: Canon 5Ds provide during RAW development with Canon’s own "Digital Photo Professional", six colour/contrast schemes you can choose from to provide Canon’s idea of a good mix which DNG wipes away from the file it processes and can never be brought back with photoshop. This might not sound much to someone who likes to fiddle with an image or two but where batch processing is involved, it is a fantastic feature which results in RAW images being consistantly processed like this one:
http://www.weprint2canvas.com/DPP-example.htm in "faithful" choice.

I conceed there may be other choices but your portrayl of DNG as an alternative to an actual RAW converter is flawed in several way. Not the least being that camera RAW "features" are not available in Photoshop’s ACR which is still needed to develop a DNG file.
BP
Barry Pearson
Mar 7, 2006
Bill Hilton wrote:
Barry Pearson writes …

As Bill Hilton pointed out, your camera IS supported by CS. In fact, every camera that can be supported by CS2 / ACR 3.3 can be supported by CS / ACR 2.4. And the means to do so is free.

Does the DNG converter support his camera, the 1d Mark II N? I downloaded this a few weeks ago to see what all the fuss is about and for the version I have (DNG 2.4) this camera isn’t listed.

From the Adobe site:

Newly supported cameras for Camera Raw 3.3 – January 2006 Support for the following cameras has been added from Camera Raw 3.2 to
3.3.
Canon … EOS 1D Mark II N

The DNG Converter keeps step with ACR, so it will also support it. The
3.3 DNG will therefore create DNGs that ACR 2.4 can open.


Barry Pearson
http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
http://www.birdsandanimals.info/
BP
Barry Pearson
Mar 7, 2006
Tropical Treat wrote:
Two wrote:
"HOTMAIL" wrote in message
I tried the DNG and it was not opening up my RAW files

I called a local Photoshop GURU and they said that IT WILL NOT BE SUPPORTED
if the CAMERA came OUT after a newer version of CS

Bullshit. Find another guru. Adobe releases new versions of RAW regardless of CS releases.

Bullshit to you my friend.
Adobe do not support his camera in the camera raw feature of Photoshop CS. You have to stay in the upgrade path to have the latest stuff.

[snip]

The 3.3 DNG Converter can create DNGs from that camera that ACR 2.4 / CS can open.

It is a myth that you have to upgrade from CS to CS2 to handle new cameras. So far, ACR 2.4 supports, via the DNG route, about 50 cameras launched after it shipped.


Barry Pearson
http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
http://www.birdsandanimals.info/
BP
Barry Pearson
Mar 7, 2006
Tropical Treat wrote:
[snip]
There is some controversy about DNG. Free it may be but it is not part of Photoshop and it requires you to convert the original images to Adobe’s format. Where I learnt to add up this costs twice the disc space and twice the work to do what other software does with ease. Anyone who decided to discard their original files and embrace DNG ‘may’ be sacrificing a great deal of processing ability other RAW converters offer.

Hardly twice the work! You convert to DNG a folder (even including sub-folders) at a time. And the fact that it is not part of Photoshop is one of its advantages.

Whether any photographer gets benefits from DNG depends on their workflow and the tools they use. If they sometimes use the camera manufacturers’ raw converters, or Bibble, or (currently) Phase One, etc, then they need to keep the original raw files. If they use (say) ACR, Rawshooter, Silkypix, or others, they don’t have to. The options improve month by month.

For example: Canon 5Ds provide during RAW development with Canon’s own "Digital Photo Professional", six colour/contrast schemes you can choose from to provide Canon’s idea of a good mix which DNG wipes away from the file it processes and can never be brought back with photoshop. This might not sound much to someone who likes to fiddle with an image or two but where batch processing is involved, it is a fantastic feature which results in RAW images being consistantly processed like this one:
http://www.weprint2canvas.com/DPP-example.htm in "faithful" choice.

In fact, The DNG Converter puts Canon’s picture style inforation into DNGPrivateData. But, indeed, ACR won’t use it. It is up to any other raw converter whether they can use it from there.

I conceed there may be other choices but your portrayl of DNG as an alternative to an actual RAW converter is flawed in several way. Not the least being that camera RAW "features" are not available in Photoshop’s ACR which is still needed to develop a DNG file.

DNG is not portrayed as an alternative to raw conversions! A DNG file is still a raw file, and needs raw conversion. (The DNG Converter converts the file format, it doesn’t do a raw conversion on the image data).


Barry Pearson
http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
http://www.birdsandanimals.info/
T
Two
Mar 7, 2006
"Tropical Treat" wrote in message

There is some controversy about DNG. Free it may be but it is not part of Photoshop and it requires you to convert the original images to Adobe’s format. Where I learnt to add up this costs twice the disc space and twice the work to do what other software does with ease. Anyone who decided to discard their original files and embrace DNG ‘may’ be sacrificing a great deal of processing ability other RAW converters offer.

Disc space is so cheap I don’t worry about it. RAW is RAW. DNG only converts it to a standard.

For example: Canon 5Ds provide during RAW development with Canon’s own "Digital Photo Professional", six colour/contrast schemes you can choose from to provide Canon’s idea of a good mix which DNG wipes away from the file it processes and can never be brought back with photoshop.

Does DNG throw away information? Are you certain?

Programs that say they do a better job translating RAW (to whatever) must be doing some custom after-processing that PS can also do.
BH
Bill Hilton
Mar 7, 2006
Two writes …

Does DNG throw away information? Are you certain?

According to the "Read Me" PDF that ships with the 2.4 DNG converter some of the "proprietary metadata" may not be encoded during conversion. So they recommend that you keep a copy of the original RAW file when using this version.

Bill
BH
Bill Hilton
Mar 7, 2006
Barry Pearson writes …

The 3.3 DNG Converter can create DNGs from that camera that ACR 2.4 / CS can open.

It’s a bit confusing because on the DNG download page Adobe bundles the
2.4 DNG converter with the 2.4 CS ACR plug-in and the 3.3 DNG converter
is bundled in the same download file as the 3.3 CS2 ACR plug-in … which seems to imply they work together.

A DNG file is still a raw file, and needs raw conversion.

So here’s the problem I see … maybe 3.3 will convert Hotmail’s 1D Mark II N RAW file to DNG format and then 2.4 can read it, but where does it get the color information for accurate conversion? There should be a custom tone curve for each supported camera (actually I have several tone curves for each of my cameras) BUT this is what’s included in the 3.3 ACR plug-in and missing from the 2.4 one.

I think this is similar to what happened with the original ACR module that supported the Canon D60 but not the 10D … you could edit the ACR module if you had a hex editor and add 10D to the list so the RAW files would then open and convert, but according to Adobe’s Chris Cox the colors weren’t right because you lacked the proper tone curve. I’m guessing it’s similar when you convert to DNG and open a non-supported file in 2.4 … since the 1D Mark II N isn’t TOO different from the Mark II maybe you don’t see gross problems, but to me it’s still a problem if this is in fact what’s happening. I seem to recall a discussion of this on the RSE forums where they supported DNG files but only for cameras which had RAW support because otherwise they didn’t have a tone curve for that camera.

Bill
BP
Barry Pearson
Mar 7, 2006
Bill Hilton wrote:
[snip]
According to the "Read Me" PDF that ships with the 2.4 DNG converter some of the "proprietary metadata" may not be encoded during conversion. So they recommend that you keep a copy of the original RAW file when using this version.

There was a major improvement to this in ACR 3.1, last May. See about 1/4 down this page, in bold italics:
http://photoshopnews.com/2005/05/23/dng-workflow-part-i/

That says that for certain common types, including NEFs, CR2s, PEFs, etc, the 3.1 DNG Converter puts it all in the DNG file. For some other cameras, it doesn’t. It is gradually improving release by release.


Barry Pearson
http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
http://www.birdsandanimals.info/
BP
Barry Pearson
Mar 7, 2006
Bill Hilton wrote:
Barry Pearson writes …

The 3.3 DNG Converter can create DNGs from that camera that ACR 2.4 / CS can open.

It’s a bit confusing because on the DNG download page Adobe bundles the
2.4 DNG converter with the 2.4 CS ACR plug-in and the 3.3 DNG converter
is bundled in the same download file as the 3.3 CS2 ACR plug-in … which seems to imply they work together.

They are released on the same date, and support the same set of cameras.

It isn’t the case that the point of a DNG Converter is to feed DNGs into ACR 2.4. I convert to DNG directly from the memory card, yet I have CS2 / ACR 3.3, so don’t use DNG in order to support my camera. (Which was supported by ACR 2.2 anyway!) So I download both when they arrive, start to use the new DNG Converter because it tends to improve at each release, and also start to use the new ACR, ditto.

A DNG file is still a raw file, and needs raw conversion.

So here’s the problem I see … maybe 3.3 will convert Hotmail’s 1D Mark II N RAW file to DNG format and then 2.4 can read it, but where does it get the color information for accurate conversion? There should be a custom tone curve for each supported camera (actually I have several tone curves for each of my cameras) BUT this is what’s included in the 3.3 ACR plug-in and missing from the 2.4 one.

I think you are refering to the calibration data that matches the sensor response to a known colour space. The answer is "it is held in the DNG file itself"!

That is one of the reasons that ACR and the DNG Converter come out together, with the same camera support. Consider (say) the D200. It had new colour calibration compared with all previous cameras. ACR 3.3 needed that to do its conversion, and it is built into ACR 3.3. The 3.3 DNG Converter also has that data, and writes it to the DNG file. ACR
2.4 picks it up from the DNG file, and it serves exactly the same
purpose as if it were built in. (Eg. ACR 2.4 has built-in calibration data for the 300D, but not the 350D. The 3.1 DNG Converter writes the 350D calibation data to the DNG file, and it is basically in the same form that ACR 2.4 needs it).

I think this is similar to what happened with the original ACR module that supported the Canon D60 but not the 10D … you could edit the ACR module if you had a hex editor and add 10D to the list so the RAW files would then open and convert, but according to Adobe’s Chris Cox the colors weren’t right because you lacked the proper tone curve.

Correct. ACR needs the calibration data per camera model, and either gets it built-in or from the DNG file.

I’m
guessing it’s similar when you convert to DNG and open a non-supported file in 2.4 … since the 1D Mark II N isn’t TOO different from the Mark II maybe you don’t see gross problems, but to me it’s still a problem if this is in fact what’s happening.

It is inside the DNG file itself – it is not guessed from a similar camera.

I seem to recall a
discussion of this on the RSE forums where they supported DNG files but only for cameras which had RAW support because otherwise they didn’t have a tone curve for that camera.

Pixmantec hasn’t written the code to read the calibation data from DNG files, which is why they have the restriction that they do. They are aware of the issue, (it is much discussed in Pixmantec forums), but don’t see a business case yet for the extra effort.

Silkypix, though, has apparently provided that code. I’m told that if it is given a DNG file and it doesn’t support the camera anyway, it reads the calibation data from the DNG file. But if it does support the camera, it offers the user a choice about whether to use the data from the DNG file or its own data. (Which may make it the best implementation of DNG, even compared with ACR!)


Barry Pearson
http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
http://www.birdsandanimals.info/
TT
Tropical Treat
Mar 7, 2006
Bill Hilton wrote:
So here’s the problem I see … maybe 3.3 will convert Hotmail’s 1D Mark II N RAW file to DNG format and then 2.4 can read it, but where does it get the color information for accurate conversion? There should be a custom tone curve for each supported camera (actually I have several tone curves for each of my cameras) BUT this is what’s included in the 3.3 ACR plug-in and missing from the 2.4 one.

I seem to recall a discussion of this on the RSE forums where they supported DNG files but only for cameras which had RAW support because otherwise they didn’t have a tone curve for that camera.
Bill

Raw Shooter Premium (Which I bought) doesn’t like a lot of cameras including my Olympus E series and my Canon 5D or 1D Mk II until you purchase the "Colour engines" at additional cost. Even then, it is a poor cousing to Capture 1 from which it is derived. It’s basically an exercise in how to target a group and milk it for all the cash you can.

DNG is an emerging product. Certainly not something which can be relied on any more or less than Canon’s camera RAW standards which are also emerging. Barry is probably the strongest and most vocal supporter of DNG I have ever come across. Even he conceeds that it is not an alternative to Camera RAW files. It is no more or less a storage medium than any other file format. It is highly reflective of Adobe’s attitude that Photoshop reads all the DNG formats but stops at one line of code in the newest CR2 files. Adobe have never had what I would call "good" camera curves in ACR.

Developing a camera RAW file is a lot more complex than just flufing some data into an unaccessable region of a file and calling it a valid RAW storage medium. DNG is still a work in progress and I don’t believe it has any value other than BETA testing until it is capable of storing data in a form able to be completely retrieved by the programs intended to edit and develop those files.

To suggest converting a Canon RAW image to DNG just to be able to edit it in Photoshop CS denies the native ability of Canon’s Photo Professional software to do the same thing -BETTER than a DNG conversion does. Why anyone would bother using ACR when a better alternative exists in a handful of other applications is totally beyond my comprehension. Even ACDSee can work as a hybrid file viewer, RAW converter in harmony with CS and make a much better job of developing the RAW files before editing than following the time consuming and resorce wasting route of converting to DNG first.
BP
Barry Pearson
Mar 8, 2006
Tropical Treat wrote:
[snip]
DNG is an emerging product. Certainly not something which can be relied on any more or less than Canon’s camera RAW standards which are also emerging.

It most certainly CAN be relied on! I have been using DNG for nearly 17 months, and converting directly from the memory card for about 8 and a half months, with no problems. (And now I have started to convert directly from an Epson P-2000 storage unit).

Whether others can use it in this way, or at all, depends on their workflow and the tools they use. In recent months I have seen more people in other forums say that they too convert directly from the memory card.

Barry is probably the strongest and most vocal supporter of DNG I have ever come across. Even he conceeds that it is not an alternative to Camera RAW files.

There are some professional photographers who were earlier supporters than me, and possibly stonger, and more vocal in the sense that a couple of them have written books in which advocate DNG.

Given that I never even copy my camera’s native raw files to my PC, and reformat the memory card and discard those native raw files after verifying the DNGs, it is pretty obvious that, for me, DNG is BETTER than those native raws. I wish my camera used DNG instead its own format, although that would obviously not be a big change for me.

[snip]
Developing a camera RAW file is a lot more complex than just flufing some data into an unaccessable region of a file and calling it a valid RAW storage medium. DNG is still a work in progress and I don’t believe it has any value other than BETA testing until it is capable of storing data in a form able to be completely retrieved by the programs intended to edit and develop those files.

DNG is a genuine raw format, proof being that 3 cameras and 4 digital backs use DNG as their native raw format. It CAN, of course, store data in a form able to be retrieved by those programs! EXIF Makernotes of properly-formed TIFF-based raw formats, such as CR2s, NEFs, PEFs, etc, are copied to DNGPrivateData, where they can be picked up by software that chooses to pick it up. Blame such software for not picking it up, if that upsets you.

To suggest converting a Canon RAW image to DNG just to be able to edit it in Photoshop CS denies the native ability of Canon’s Photo Professional software to do the same thing -BETTER than a DNG conversion does. Why anyone would bother using ACR when a better alternative exists in a handful of other applications is totally beyond my comprehension. Even ACDSee can work as a hybrid file viewer, RAW converter in harmony with CS and make a much better job of developing the RAW files before editing than following the time consuming and resorce wasting route of converting to DNG first.

Your words suggest to me that you don’t understand how DNG works, nor what a DNG-based workflow is like. It is almost as though you haven’t realised that DNG is a proper raw format, and so DNG files have to be handled by a raw converter just as CR2s, NEFs, etc, have to. Perhaps you haven’t had much experience with DNG, and so are working from assumptions.

Do you realise that the following routes give identical results, where the same software versions are used?
raw > ACR > Photoshop
raw > DNG > ACR > Photoshop

I convert directly to DNG from the memory card or storage unit. Since I have to get the data from that source anyway, I am replacing one step by another. Some people run a script or other ingestion tool that may copy the original raw and also convert to DNG in separate folders. There are plenty of options.


Barry Pearson
http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
http://www.birdsandanimals.info/
TT
Tropical Treat
Mar 8, 2006
Barry Pearson wrote:
Your words suggest to me that you don’t understand how DNG works, nor what a DNG-based workflow is like. It is almost as though you haven’t realised that DNG is a proper raw format, and so DNG files have to be handled by a raw converter just as CR2s, NEFs, etc, have to. Perhaps you haven’t had much experience with DNG, and so are working from assumptions.

Do you realise that the following routes give identical results, where the same software versions are used?
raw > ACR > Photoshop
raw > DNG > ACR > Photoshop

I convert directly to DNG from the memory card or storage unit. Since I have to get the data from that source anyway, I am replacing one step by another. Some people run a script or other ingestion tool that may copy the original raw and also convert to DNG in separate folders. There are plenty of options.


Barry Pearson
http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
http://www.birdsandanimals.info/

Arrrh Yes. Of course. ACR has to come into it, doesn’t it? It is ACR that mucks things up, not specifically DNG although it has a hand in the mess. The problem here Barry is not DNG but the workflow you describe. It is IMO flawed. This workflow requires additional file manipulation by 2 distintly seperate programs just to get the file into Photoshop.

Try this:
Canon RAW file > Canon Digital Photo Professional> Photoshop. Or; Any RAW file > ACDSee > Photoshop.

No ACR there. No DNG. Just develop the RAW file with the only program which does it with full access to every (Canon) function embedded in the file and then edit it (if you still need to) with Photoshop – ANY version of Photoshop. For that matter ANY photo editing program. No need to "support" RAW files of any type.

I think in the process of editing photos and embracing digital cameras, we have all lost sight of the fact that until a few years ago, we had to take a good (as in technically correct) photograph in the camera if we were to have good prints.
I am quite mortified when I look at many photos I have taken with very, very expensive digital cameras. Had they been film cameras, the images would not need the after shoot processing that goes on as matter of need with RAW digital images.

Adobe are to be recognized for attempting to introduce a "standard" into proprietory camera files, to be sure. It won’t work as long as profit is involved. In the mean time. Camera makers provide software to decode or develop the RAW files their cameras create. IMO this should always be the first means of development. In the case of Canon RAW, the only application to do it with. After market quasi standards like DNG are just another file type people who work with many makes of cameras have to deal with. Instead of providing a solution, it creates the problem.

You may very well be happy with your idea of getting a photo from a camera. My idea differs considerably. I think those people seeking to just get a RAW file into Photoshop so they can work with it, could do a hell of a lot better than converting the original file to one which the camera maker’s software can’t read and then using another application (ACR) to do the developing. Your suggestion then to delete the Canon file altogether, carries with it the spectre of losing processing functionality because Photo Editors cannot deciper that functionality from a DNG file- this includes Photoshop CS itself.
T
Two
Mar 8, 2006
"Tropical Treat" wrote in message

[…] You may very well be happy with your idea of getting a photo from a camera.
My idea differs considerably. I think those people seeking to just get a RAW
file into Photoshop so they can work with it, could do a hell of a lot better than converting the original file to one which the camera maker’s software can’t read [….]

The problem is the manufacturers’ effort to make the format proprietary in order to suck every single $ from it. It’s not about competent engineering; it’s the beancounters running the show, and thank goodness they are, ultimately, clueless and powerless to the rest of us.

Proprietary RAW has nothing to gain but sucker clients who don’t understand that RAW is perfectly translatable. Maybe you have to live in the digital world at the DIGITAL level to understand this.
BP
Barry Pearson
Mar 8, 2006
Tropical Treat wrote:
[snip]
Arrrh Yes. Of course. ACR has to come into it, doesn’t it?

Yes. The original post here was about ACR support. Presumably, that poster had already made a decision about that. My responses here have been related to the original topic of this thread.

Whether someone gets benefits from DNG depends on their workflow and the tools they use. Someone who wants to use DPP must retain the original CR2s. That is well known. But an argument about DPP versus ACR is a very different discussion, and one I won’t spend time on. It has been had many times without consensus.

[snip]
I am quite mortified when I look at many photos I have taken with very, very expensive digital cameras. Had they been film cameras, the images would not need the after shoot processing that goes on as matter of need with RAW digital images.

I find that my photographs taken with a digital camera typically require less work in Photoshop than my photographs taken with a film camera, (same lenses), then scanned in. I find that, the more I learn about how to use ACR effectively, the less work I need in Photoshop. I find it vastly easier now to get good colour prints than when I used Cibachrome / Ilfochrome to print from slides.

(Note – I am distinguishing between ACR and Photoshop – they are different things. In fact, when I use ACR, I don’t normally even have Photoshop running).

Adobe are to be recognized for attempting to introduce a "standard" into proprietory camera files, to be sure. It won’t work as long as profit is involved.

Please identify this "profit" that you think will stop DNG working. Whose profit? From where? Who is paying the money that leads to this profit? What added expense to photographers does DNG incur?

(If there IS profit there, it comes from specific identifiable money, not some arm-waving statement that "Adobe are in it for the money").

In the mean time. Camera makers provide software to decode or develop the RAW files their cameras create. IMO this should always be the first means of development. In the case of Canon RAW, the only application to do it with. After market quasi standards like DNG are just another file type people who work with many makes of cameras have to deal with. Instead of providing a solution, it creates the problem.
[snip]

I suggest you read:
http://www.openraw.org/info/


Barry Pearson
http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
http://www.birdsandanimals.info/
N
nomail
Mar 8, 2006
Two wrote:

"Tropical Treat" wrote in message

[…] You may very well be happy with your idea of getting a photo from a camera.
My idea differs considerably. I think those people seeking to just get a RAW
file into Photoshop so they can work with it, could do a hell of a lot better than converting the original file to one which the camera maker’s software can’t read [….]

The problem is the manufacturers’ effort to make the format proprietary in order to suck every single $ from it. It’s not about competent engineering; it’s the beancounters running the show, and thank goodness they are, ultimately, clueless and powerless to the rest of us.

Proprietary RAW has nothing to gain but sucker clients who don’t understand that RAW is perfectly translatable. Maybe you have to live in the digital world at the DIGITAL level to understand this.

That’s an unfair argument, and in case of Canon also untrue. Canon provides DPP free of charge, so using the proprietary Canon format doesn’t squeeze any extra money out of your pockets. You could very well accuse Adobe of trying to do the same thing: By introducing the (free) DNG, they hope that most people will go the ACR – Photoshop route, and Photoshop isn’t exactly free. If you use DPP (which I don’t; I prefer CaptureOne Pro), you are free (and perhaps more likely) to use any other image editor, not only Adobe’s offerings. Sure, there are several other RAW converters that can use DNG, so using DNG doesn’t *force* you to go to Photoshop as end station, but it’s obvious that Adobe’s agenda with the introduction of DNG is to make their offerings more attractive and ‘the natural route’. Adobe still is a company doing things for profit, just like all the other companies you accuse of doing that. Maybe you have to live in the REAL world to understand that!


Johan W. Elzenga johan<<at>>johanfoto.nl Editor / Photographer http://www.johanfoto.nl
WI
wraped in canvas
Mar 8, 2006
Barry Pearson wrote:

Please identify this "profit" that you think will stop DNG working. Whose profit? From where? Who is paying the money that leads to this profit? What added expense to photographers does DNG incur?
(If there IS profit there, it comes from specific identifiable money, not some arm-waving statement that "Adobe are in it for the money").
In the mean time. Camera makers provide software to decode or develop the RAW files their cameras create. IMO this should always be the first means of development. In the case of Canon RAW, the only application to do it with. After market quasi standards like DNG are just another file type people who work with many makes of cameras have to deal with. Instead of providing a solution, it creates the problem.
[snip]

The original discussion was not about ACR but Photoshop: "Apparently my version of CS does not support this camera RAW" I guess the fact no version of Photoshop supports RAW images has been overlooked so in the context of the OP needing to get his images into Photoshop, any RAW converter, not particularly ACR which is able to do the job would suffice.

The profit I refer to is the profit made by the likes of Canon for whom it would be highly beneficial NOT to have a unified standard. We all know Adobe are just as profit minded as Canon. For them it would be extremely beneficial to be the instigator of an industry "standard". The twain shall never meet.

Already the industry has been divided by Adobe seeking to have "THEIR" standard adopted when for all we know, Nikon or Olympus or Panasonic or Canon or some yet to be developed system may be better suited to standardisation than Adobe’s. The fact Adobe have sought to enforce the use of DNG by those not wishing to upgrade their software is just part of the profit motivation and their willingness to force their standard on people in the hope of widescale acceptance. Sound Americal business practices, if you ask me.

The purpose for developing anything is always profit. No profit, no motive, no progress. Adobe are particularly well versed in the finer points of what they can do before it becomes illegal and they profit from that ability. So does every other American firm. This is what makes America powerful. It does not necessarily result in the best solution, just the most profitable one.

All that aside, the use of DNG to convert Canon files specifically for developing with ACR does have some small merit. It is quite a narrow advantage in one particular area and certainly not worthy of mass migration to use ACR. That area is the rather clean shadows, compared to other (including Canon’s own) Raw converters. Which also promotes the question; Exactly how much of the original image is being altered as ACR develops it?

I take it you have always used computer manipulation of your photographs? I rarely use it to obtain good photos. My use is to alter photographs with it. During the lifetime of Cibachrome, I specalised in making contrast masks and true unsharp masks. I never experienced many situations for which I needed a computer to obtain a solution other than alter an image.

Even today, I cannot see why photographs absolutely MUST be Photoshoped before they are usable. Agreed that scanning a film results in it’s own unique problems and I can understand why you might find digital cameras easier to live with if your experience has been with scanned film. At some point in the future, I may engage you in a discussion of how good are your photographs compared to mine, made from film alone… Later, Barry.
BP
Barry Pearson
Mar 8, 2006
wraped in canvas wrote:
[snip]
The original discussion was not about ACR but Photoshop: "Apparently my version of CS does not support this camera RAW"

Read it again. It said: "I have been using the Adobe RAW converter when I was using my 20D and basically liked the workflow when I shot in RAW. The Adobe website doesn’t seem to have this model listed for CS".

That is about ACR!

[snip]
Already the industry has been divided by Adobe seeking to have "THEIR" standard adopted when for all we know, Nikon or Olympus or Panasonic or Canon or some yet to be developed system may be better suited to standardisation than Adobe’s.

None of those support the range of sensor configurations that DNG supports. (DNG can currently handle more than 100 cameras from about 17 camera manufacturers). None of the camera manufacturers has shown any indication of wanting their format to become the industry standard, (except by wiping out their competitors!), so whether they COULD theoretically be developed over a number of years to be a better format than DNG is irrelevant. They won’t be.

A requirement is that any format to be used as an industry standard has to be openly documented. So far, I believe that only Sigma has done this, apart from DNG of course.

[snip]
I take it you have always used computer manipulation of your photographs?

When I started printing my photographs, about 45 years ago, I didn’t possess a computer! In fact, I didn’t start doing computer manipulation until about 5 years ago, when I realised at an exhibition that digital printing was an acceptable alternative for my purposes to the Cibachrome / Ilfochrome prints I had done. Within weeks, I gave my darkroom equipment away, and bought into a "digital darkroom".

I do whatever I need to to get a desirable end result. The cameras, lenses, films, software, computers, printers, scanners, etc, are simply components of a system, and I use them as required.

[snip]
Even today, I cannot see why photographs absolutely MUST be Photoshoped before they are usable.
[snip]

See above – for 40 years, I didn’t use Photoshop in order to make my photographs usable. Now I use it for all my photographs, because it is the best tool for a particular role in my chosen workflow. I use it as much or as little as needed – sometimes it is little more than a way of invoking the printer driver, sometimes I have many layers with layers masks built up over many hours. Whatever it takes.


Barry Pearson
http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
http://www.birdsandanimals.info/
BV
Bart van der Wolf
Mar 8, 2006
"Barry Pearson" wrote in message
SNIP
Given that I never even copy my camera’s native raw files to my PC, and reformat the memory card and discard those
native raw files after verifying the DNGs, it is pretty obvious that, for me, DNG is BETTER than those native raws.

In which case, if you use Canon Raws, you’ve lost valuable blackpoint correction data with older versions (<3.2 ?) of DNG. I wouldn’t call that better.

Bart
DH
Desert Heat
Mar 8, 2006
Where do I stand on this issue!!

First thanks for everyone for the ideas and discussion.

From this group, I will NOW have two ways (albeit somewhat cumbersome) to manage my files. I am not a ‘pro’ and ‘time’ is not as important of an issue for me.

Workflow prior to my new camera was transfer to a file, populate the files in ARC and Photoshop, and view. Alternative was to look at images after transfer to the computer in Windows RAW viewer.

I liked the way ARC allowed the adjustment of the exposure, shadows, temperature, and white balance and then transfer to Photoshop for addition processing (if necessary) and then some image display (web or printer).

NOW, Workflow is to transfer the computer file. I can process (FIRST OPTION) the file USING Canon’s DPP but there is little guidance in the manual and on line other then a set of tutorials by Eddie Tapp. The images seem to load quicker but I am still not comfortable with some of the adjustments. If I like it, I can then transfer to ‘editing’ program i.e. Photoshop and do additional post processing.

Second option: Convert my Canon RAW files to DNG which adds processing time and doubles each particular files size (I convert to another folder called DNG under that day or subject shooting). Then I can process in the workflow I have become comfortable with.

I think the parts about this experience that is irritating are the following:

1. ADOBE does not support at least one level back in their version cycle. (Camera RAW and new cameras)
2. IMO the difference in improvement between CS and CS2 was not worth the upgrade even most people seem to like the BRIDGE that was the MAJOR improvement based on my shooting style.
3. All this debate could have been solved if I upgraded but THAT is the
PROFIT motive of Adobe.
4. Canon’s DPP and other software, spread over the number of cameras sold, is ‘free’ compared to Nikon.
I am convinced that NEITHER CANON nor NIKON want their captured images to be processed in Photoshop. (sounds like a profit motive to me) { I am not opposed to profits but am more into brand loyalty and quality of product}.
5. My main concern is to take a picture, reflect my interaction with the subject, present it to others, and have a good time. The techie information IS important but less of a priority for me.

THANKS again for all for the INFORMATION that helped me and a generally positive sets of interaction.

"Barry Pearson" wrote in message
: wraped in canvas wrote:
: [snip]
: > The original discussion was not about ACR but Photoshop: : > "Apparently my version of CS does not support this camera RAW" :
: Read it again. It said: "I have been using the Adobe RAW converter when : I was using my 20D and basically liked the workflow when I shot in RAW. : The Adobe website doesn’t seem to have this model listed for CS". :
: That is about ACR!
:
: [snip]
: > Already the industry has been divided by Adobe seeking to have "THEIR" : > standard adopted when for all we know, Nikon or Olympus or Panasonic or : > Canon or some yet to be developed system may be better suited to : > standardisation than Adobe’s.
:
: None of those support the range of sensor configurations that DNG : supports. (DNG can currently handle more than 100 cameras from about 17 : camera manufacturers). None of the camera manufacturers has shown any : indication of wanting their format to become the industry standard, : (except by wiping out their competitors!), so whether they COULD : theoretically be developed over a number of years to be a better format : than DNG is irrelevant. They won’t be.
:
: A requirement is that any format to be used as an industry standard has : to be openly documented. So far, I believe that only Sigma has done : this, apart from DNG of course.
:
: [snip]
: > I take it you have always used computer manipulation of your photographs?
:
: When I started printing my photographs, about 45 years ago, I didn’t : possess a computer! In fact, I didn’t start doing computer manipulation : until about 5 years ago, when I realised at an exhibition that digital : printing was an acceptable alternative for my purposes to the : Cibachrome / Ilfochrome prints I had done. Within weeks, I gave my : darkroom equipment away, and bought into a "digital darkroom". :
: I do whatever I need to to get a desirable end result. The cameras, : lenses, films, software, computers, printers, scanners, etc, are simply : components of a system, and I use them as required.
:
: [snip]
: > Even today, I cannot see why photographs absolutely MUST be Photoshoped : > before they are usable.
: [snip]
:
: See above – for 40 years, I didn’t use Photoshop in order to make my : photographs usable. Now I use it for all my photographs, because it is : the best tool for a particular role in my chosen workflow. I use it as : much or as little as needed – sometimes it is little more than a way of : invoking the printer driver, sometimes I have many layers with layers : masks built up over many hours. Whatever it takes.
:
: —
: Barry Pearson
: http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
: http://www.birdsandanimals.info/
:
BP
Barry Pearson
Mar 9, 2006
Bart van der Wolf wrote:
"Barry Pearson" wrote in message
SNIP
Given that I never even copy my camera’s native raw files to my PC, and reformat the memory card and discard those
native raw files after verifying the DNGs, it is pretty obvious that, for me, DNG is BETTER than those native raws.

In which case, if you use Canon Raws,
[snip]

I don’t.


Barry Pearson
http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
http://www.birdsandanimals.info/
BH
Bill Hilton
Mar 9, 2006
Barry Pearson writes …

Do you realise that the following routes give identical results, where the same software versions are used?
raw > ACR > Photoshop
raw > DNG > ACR > Photoshop

I downloaded the DNG module and ran a folder of Canon .cr2 RAWs thru it …. here are my insights … with my .cr2 files I can open them in all four RAW converters I have but with the .dng conversions I can only open them in two (CS RAW and RSE, neither of which is my main conversion program) and like you say, they look identical to the .cr2 files in those two programs … so all I did was cut in half the number of programs I can use on those files, but with nothing new in return. Not progress to me …

The .dng file sizes are about 85% of the originals so if I converted everything I’d save about 15% disk space, but the .pdf readme says there may be missing exif data so they recommend not tossing the original format files. So now I’m taking an extra 85% disk space to store files even though the new files offer zero advantages.

I can now see (based on what Barry wrote) how if you get a new unsupported camera you can use the latest DNG converter to convert and open them in Photoshop but there’s usually only a few weeks wait until the converter I prefer is updated to support new cameras so that’s a good point for DNG but not a crucial one for me.

DNG is a genuine raw format, proof being that 3 cameras and 4 digital backs use DNG as their native raw format.

Adobe has a list of these on their web page and other than the Hassy H2 it’s not a very impressive list. It looks like makers of slow-selling cameras can use DNG to avoid spending money on developing their own software. With all the cameras I own I got a free RAW conversion program and while it may not be a very good one compared to Capture One it was still something I could use to convert right out of the gate, and it typically gives me access to a good deal of exif data that Adobe doesn’t show. Now these companies going the DNG route are skipping providing this program and it’s up to the user to buy Photoshop or another program that supports DNG (but not full exif). If they at least gave you a free copy of Elements (which will read DNG) it would be easier to accept, but if they don’t it’s another step back in customer support, I feel.

Bill
WI
wraped in canvas
Mar 9, 2006
Bill Hilton wrote:
Adobe has a list of these on their web page and other than the Hassy H2 it’s not a very impressive list. It looks like makers of slow-selling cameras can use DNG to avoid spending money on developing their own software. With all the cameras I own I got a free RAW conversion program and while it may not be a very good one compared to Capture One it was still something I could use to convert right out of the gate, and it typically gives me access to a good deal of exif data that Adobe doesn’t show. Now these companies going the DNG route are skipping providing this program and it’s up to the user to buy Photoshop or another program that supports DNG (but not full exif). If they at least gave you a free copy of Elements (which will read DNG) it would be easier to accept, but if they don’t it’s another step back in customer support, I feel.
Bill

Often we get carried away in support of things not everyone else believes in. God only knows I’ve been guilty of that often enough. I think the vocal support Barry gives to DNG is in that same catagory. He is enthusastic about it and can’t understand why everyone else is not. It does have it’s place but not on my computer.

www.photosbydouglas.com
www.weprint2canvas.com
If you really must write,use my
name at an above domain.
BV
Bart van der Wolf
Mar 10, 2006
"Barry Pearson" wrote in message
Bart van der Wolf wrote:
"Barry Pearson" wrote in message
SNIP
Given that I never even copy my camera’s native raw files to my PC, and reformat the memory card and discard
those native raw files after verifying the DNGs, it is pretty obvious that, for me, DNG is BETTER than those native
raws.

In which case, if you use Canon Raws,
[snip]

I don’t.

Seems you got lucky not losing data, or did you???

Bart
BH
Bill Hilton
Mar 10, 2006
Barry Pearson wrote …

it is pretty obvious that, for me, DNG is BETTER than
those native raws.

Bart van der Wolf writes …

In which case, if you use Canon Raws, you’ve lost valuable blackpoint correction data with older versions (<3.2 ?) of DNG

I think he’s using the Pentax 6 Mpixel digital SLR …
BP
Barry Pearson
Mar 10, 2006
Bill Hilton wrote:
Barry Pearson wrote …

it is pretty obvious that, for me, DNG is BETTER than
those native raws.

Bart van der Wolf writes …

In which case, if you use Canon Raws, you’ve lost valuable blackpoint correction data with older versions (<3.2 ?) of DNG

I think he’s using the Pentax 6 Mpixel digital SLR …

Yup, *istD. Up to version 3.x of the DNG Converter, the EXIF Makernote identifying the lens model was lost. Then in 3.x it was preserved as DNGPrivateData, and later Bridge+ACR started to show it in the metadata. I started to discard my PEFs as a result of the change in
3.x.

Whether there are benefits and/or risks with using DNG depends on your workflow and the tools you use. And I normally recommend to people wondering whether to adopt a DNG-based workflow, but worried that they may be losing image quality, that they try an experiment. Try these 2 routes into their photo-editor of choice:

Native raw > raw converter > photo-editor
Native raw > DNG Converter > DNG > raw converter > photo-editor

Then use the photo-editor to compare the results, for example in Photoshop make the 2 results separate layers of the same file, then use "difference" blending mode. Use "Info" to see if any difference is zero. To check whether all the diffences are the same, use Image > Trim, and if it says "there would be no pixels", all the pixels are the same.

For all the types of camera for which I’ve run this test using ACR & Photoshop, the results have always been that they are identical, when the same software versions are used in both routes.


Barry Pearson
http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
http://www.birdsandanimals.info/
BP
Barry Pearson
Mar 10, 2006
Bill Hilton wrote:
[snip]
Now these companies going the DNG route are skipping
providing this program and it’s up to the user to buy Photoshop or another program that supports DNG (but not full exif). If they at least gave you a free copy of Elements (which will read DNG) it would be easier to accept, but if they don’t it’s another step back in customer support, I feel.

Hasselblad-Imacon have Flexcolor software, which I believe they charge (a lot) for. Flexcolor can both read and write DNG files, at least from their cameras/backs. They assume that many of their customers have already made a workflow-decision (and investment) to use ACR / CS or CS2.

Samsung’s Digimax Master supplied with the Pro815 can read and process DNG files from that camera, as well as other formats from other cameras. (I believe it can also handle PEFs from their re-badged version of one of the Pentaxes).

Leica supply Photoshop Elements (3) free with their DMR back. (It costs so much, they could afford to give the full CS2 away!)

I have no idea what Ricoh do.

What we see above is that use of DNG provides extra options for the camera manufacturer, not necessarily to the disadvantage of the user. I’ve read that some camera manufacturers are not very helpful with their own proprietary raw files, and many users would prefer to go straight to one of the products that handles DNG. It makes sense for the smaller companies to be the first to switch to DNG. Pentax users appear to be among the most eager for their future cameras to output it! (And Canon and Nikon users tend to be the least enthusiastic).


Barry Pearson
http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
http://www.birdsandanimals.info/
BP
Barry Pearson
Mar 10, 2006
D-Mac wrote:
[snip]
Often we get carried away in support of things not everyone else believes in. God only knows I’ve been guilty of that often enough. I think the vocal support Barry gives to DNG is in that same catagory. He is enthusastic about it and can’t understand why everyone else is not. It does have it’s place but not on my computer.

There are two main reasons why people don’t use DNG:

1. Whether DNG offers benefits, or even can be used at all, depends on your workflow and the tools you use, and some people have workflows / tools that (currently) rule it out or don’t provide its benefits. And I document on my website the raw handling tools I know of that don’t support DNG, to help people make an informed decision:
http://www.barry.pearson.name/articles/dng/not_yet.htm

2. Some people don’t use it through ignorance. Perhaps they don’t even know about it. Perhaps they don’t know that their tools actually support it. Perhaps they haven’t realised its options. Perhaps they have the wrong idea about what it actually is.

I normally post in case "2", to provide information that people may find useful in making an informed decision. I respect anyone who has made an informed decision not to use it, but I might suggest that they have another look in a few months time, when a different informed decision may be possible as a result of its evolution.

One of my main triggers for posting about DNG is where people believe that they need to upgrade from CS to CS2 because they have a new camera. I point out to them, in effect, that they can save some money. Sometimes my news isn’t welcome – some people would rather believe that Adobe’s business model includes forcing people to upgrade for that reason, and they want to have an anti-Adobe rant!


Barry Pearson
http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
http://www.birdsandanimals.info/

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