CRT vs LCD

N
Posted By
nperry
Jul 13, 2004
Views
1006
Replies
16
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Closed
I am going to replace my CRT monitor. I am not sure weather to replace it with another CRT or with a LCD monitor. Do any of you have opinions as to which is the best for editing photos. Thank.

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Deco_time
Jul 13, 2004
In news:N Perry typed:
I am going to replace my CRT monitor. I am not sure weather to replace it with another CRT or with a LCD monitor. Do any of you have opinions as to which is the best for editing photos. Thank.

LCD’s have many problems for photo editing; the color and contrast changes with viewing angle, difficult or impossible to color profile properly, a fixed resolution which, for most 17", is not even 4:3 aspect ratio (inducing distortion) and very expensive compared to CRT’s. Personnaly, I would only use one on a dual (or triple) monitor setup.


www.odysea.ca
GC
Graeme Cogger
Jul 13, 2004
In article <9UUIc.56084$>,
says…
In news:N Perry typed:
I am going to replace my CRT monitor. I am not sure weather to replace it with another CRT or with a LCD monitor. Do any of you have opinions as to which is the best for editing photos. Thank.

LCD’s have many problems for photo editing; the color and contrast changes with viewing angle

It’s not too bad on some modern LCDs (e.g. Samsung 193P, I believe).

difficult or impossible to color profile properly

I’d agree if you’re doing an ‘eyeball’ calibration. There’s no problem using hardware calibrators such as i1 Display.

a fixed resolution which, for most 17", is not even 4:3 aspect ratio (inducing distortion)

They’re not strictly fixed, but most look pretty crap in other resolutions. In their native resolution there’s no distortion,
e.g. a 17" monitor is 5:4, and uses 1280×1024 (which is also
5:4).

and very expensive compared to CRT’s.

Can’t argue with that!

Personnaly, I would only use one on a dual (or triple) monitor setup.

LCDs are much smaller, generate less heat, and are much easier on the eyes (I.e. less tiring to use for long periods). They also have a sharper image which, I suppose, is useful for things like CAD applications.
CRTs are usually better in the shadow areas of an image, are better if you want to calibrate to something other than 6500K (e.g. 5000K) and don’t suffer from ‘ghosting’ in games or DVD playback.
Bear in mind that a 19" CRT will have a viewable size of under 18" – on an LCD it will be a genuine 19".

Both have merit, so it all depends on your priorities.
H
Hecate
Jul 14, 2004
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:47:06 -0700, "N Perry" wrote:

I am going to replace my CRT monitor. I am not sure weather to replace it with another CRT or with a LCD monitor. Do any of you have opinions as to which is the best for editing photos. Thank.
It depends what you want to do. Colour purity is not as good on an LCD for a start, unless you’re willing to pay larger sums of money for an accurate monitor like an Eizo. However, if all you want to do is view images on your screen then that doesn’t really matter. If, however, you wish to print these images out then you’ll find you’re in colour management hell unless you buy an expensive LCD.



Hecate

veni, vidi, reliqui
OR
O Ransen
Jul 14, 2004
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 22:51:58 +0100, Graeme Cogger
wrote:

In article <9UUIc.56084$>,
says…
In news:N Perry typed:
I am going to replace my CRT monitor. I am not sure weather to replace it with another CRT or with a LCD monitor. Do any of you have opinions as to which is the best for editing photos. Thank.

They also have a sharper image which, I suppose, is useful for things like CAD applications.

As far as I have seen LCDs are still terrible for CAD applications, especially when viewing non horizontal or vertical lines…

Unique and easy to use graphics programs
http://www.ransen.com
G
Greg
Jul 15, 2004
"O Ransen" wrote in message
As far as I have seen LCDs are still terrible for CAD applications, especially when viewing non horizontal or vertical lines…

That sounds like a deficiency of the CAD application more than the LCD monitor, in that the
extra sharpness/crispness of the LCD is making the "jaggies" more pronounced. The best way
around this problem would be for the CAD application to do anti-aliasing, to smooth out the
jaggies. I’d be very surprised if anti-aliasing weren’t an option for at least the better quality CAD
programs.

Greg.
G
Glo8al
Jul 15, 2004
In news:N Perry typed:
I am going to replace my CRT monitor. I am not sure weather to replace it with another CRT or with a LCD monitor. Do any of you have opinions as to which is the best for editing photos. Thank.

LCD’s have many problems for photo editing; the color and contrast changes with viewing angle, difficult or impossible to color profile properly, a fixed resolution which, for most 17", is not even 4:3 aspect ratio (inducing distortion) and very expensive compared to CRT’s. Personnaly, I would only use one on a dual (or triple) monitor setup.

We have just got a Eizo L985EX 54 cm (21.3 inch) Class Color LCD Monitor http://www.eizo.com/products/lcd/l985ex/index.asp.

There is no problem doing photo editing or profiling it and runs at a res of 1600×1200 native.
It has a excellent viewing angle, sharp, and doesn’t get effected by electronic interference.
HF
Hans Fleischmann
Jul 15, 2004
N Perry wrote:

I am going to replace my CRT monitor. I am not sure weather to replace it with another CRT or with a LCD monitor. Do any of you have opinions as to which is the best for editing photos. Thank.
I can only speak for what I have seen: My Philips 109P40 19" CRT beats every LCD I have seen in brightness, contrast, colors and sharpness. It is a trinitron/diamondtron/you-know so it’s exactly flat and square and has a great useable viewing area (much more than 18" mention before). I cannot recommend anything else but a decent CRT but an average LCD may outperform many of the CRT’s already.


Hans Fleischmann

PGP-KeyID: 0x676FB35B
+31650525455
OR
O Ransen
Jul 15, 2004
On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 14:30:52 +1000, "Greg"
wrote:

"O Ransen" wrote in message
As far as I have seen LCDs are still terrible for CAD applications, especially when viewing non horizontal or vertical lines…

That sounds like a deficiency of the CAD application more than the LCD monitor, in that the extra sharpness/crispness of the LCD is making the "jaggies" more pronounced.

Who said anything about "jaggies"? It is because the part of fine thin lines (perfectly visible and without jaggies on normal monitors) fall between the rows or columns of the pixels on the LCD.

The best way
around this problem would be for the CAD application to do anti-aliasing, to smooth out the
jaggies. I’d be very surprised if anti-aliasing weren’t an option for at least the better quality CAD
programs.

Most "quality" CADs leave that sort of stuff up to the drivers of the graphics cards, else the best CADs would have
to worry about drawing lines pixel by pixel.

Have you ever tried to work with AutoCAD or Inventor or Microstation on an LCD?

Unique and easy to use graphics programs
http://www.ransen.com
G
Greg
Jul 15, 2004
"O Ransen" wrote in message
Who said anything about "jaggies"?

I inferred that the problem was due to "jaggies", from your description of the problem.
I still think that’s exactly what you’re seeing.

It is because the part of
fine thin lines (perfectly visible and without jaggies on normal monitors) fall between the rows or columns of the pixels on the LCD.

I.e – what’s commonly referred to as "jaggies" – lines which have been drawn without antialiasing.

Most "quality" CADs leave that sort of stuff up to the drivers of the graphics cards, else the best CADs would have
to worry about drawing lines pixel by pixel.

Have you investigated whether perhaps antialiasing is not being done by whatever is supposed to do it, on the system where the LCD is connected? Have you contacted the CAD application vendor about the problem?

It’s possible that the LCD you’re using is simply of a lower resolution than the CRT you’re using, too – that may bring out this artifact more on the LCD.
How large is the LCD, and what resolution are you using? How about the CRT?

Have you ever tried to work with AutoCAD or Inventor or Microstation on an LCD?

No, I haven’t.

The point I’m trying to make is that a pixel is a pixel – the LCD itself knows *nothing*
about the relationship between the pixels on the screen, and if a line doesn’t look smooth,
when drawn on the LCD, it’s not the fault of the LCD, except that for a given amount of
antialiasing, the display with the lower dots-per-inch will show the jaggies more than
the display with the higher dots-per-inch rating, if viewed from the same distance.

Greg.
G
Greg
Jul 15, 2004
Also, when I compare my 15" laptop screen, which can go all the way to 1600×1200, it looks
a lot sharper/crisper than my 19" CRT, which is also rated to 1600×1200. The laptop screen
shows fine detail in photos which my CRT doesn’t show nearly as well. Whilst I haven’t
tried a CAD application on these systems, I would not be a bit surprised if poorly anti-aliased
lines looked more jaggy on the laptop(LCD) than they do on my CRT, due to a certain amount
of natural smoothing which occurs on the CRT. That’s a defect of the *CRT*, not the LCD.

Greg.

"Greg" wrote in message
"O Ransen" wrote in message
Who said anything about "jaggies"?

I inferred that the problem was due to "jaggies", from your description of the problem.
I still think that’s exactly what you’re seeing.

It is because the part of
fine thin lines (perfectly visible and without jaggies on normal monitors) fall between the rows or columns of the pixels on the LCD.

I.e – what’s commonly referred to as "jaggies" – lines which have been
drawn
without antialiasing.

Most "quality" CADs leave that sort of stuff up to the drivers of the graphics cards, else the best CADs would have
to worry about drawing lines pixel by pixel.

Have you investigated whether perhaps antialiasing is not being done by whatever is supposed to do it, on the system where the LCD is
connected?
Have you contacted the CAD application vendor about the problem?
It’s possible that the LCD you’re using is simply of a lower resolution
than
the CRT you’re using, too – that may bring out this artifact more on the LCD.
How large is the LCD, and what resolution are you using? How about the
CRT?
Have you ever tried to work with AutoCAD or Inventor or Microstation on an LCD?

No, I haven’t.

The point I’m trying to make is that a pixel is a pixel – the LCD itself knows *nothing*
about the relationship between the pixels on the screen, and if a line doesn’t look smooth,
when drawn on the LCD, it’s not the fault of the LCD, except that for a given amount of
antialiasing, the display with the lower dots-per-inch will show the
jaggies
more than
the display with the higher dots-per-inch rating, if viewed from the same distance.

Greg.

H
Hecate
Jul 16, 2004
On Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:34:35 +1000, Glo8al
wrote:

In news:N Perry typed:
I am going to replace my CRT monitor. I am not sure weather to replace it with another CRT or with a LCD monitor. Do any of you have opinions as to which is the best for editing photos. Thank.

LCD’s have many problems for photo editing; the color and contrast changes with viewing angle, difficult or impossible to color profile properly, a fixed resolution which, for most 17", is not even 4:3 aspect ratio (inducing distortion) and very expensive compared to CRT’s. Personnaly, I would only use one on a dual (or triple) monitor setup.

We have just got a Eizo L985EX 54 cm (21.3 inch) Class Color LCD Monitor http://www.eizo.com/products/lcd/l985ex/index.asp.
There is no problem doing photo editing or profiling it and runs at a res of 1600×1200 native.
It has a excellent viewing angle, sharp, and doesn’t get effected by electronic interference.

And there wouldn’t be with an Eizo at Eizo prices, of course 😉



Hecate

veni, vidi, reliqui
OR
O Ransen
Jul 16, 2004
Greg,

You are confusing two sorts of "pixels".

When I worked on CAD graphics drivers a few years ago I
added anti-aliassing into the lines drawn into the video ram, where a pixel is (usually these days) 3 bytes or 24 bits.

That is software antialiassing.

But that signal gets transformed from a digital list of
values in a scanline into an analog signal which gets
transferred to the outpt of your video card.

At the other end of the (analog) black cable connecting
your computer to the video card is a CRT or an LCD.

What happens there depends on the physical "pixels" which make up the actual physical stuff which emits
light.

In CRTs it is a glowing phosphor.

In LCDs it is a semi-conductor.

Either way they are arranged in an array of pixels
which may or may not correspond to pixels of the
video card. But the signal which arrives there is
analog, and remains analog in CRTs and gets changed
into digital in LCDs.

Problems occur because what was a wonderful high
quality analog signal for CRTs, may not match up
so well with LCDs.

Mismatches between the two sorts of pixels is what
causes problems:

bits in memory
vs
physical light emmitting matter on the display surface.

Whatever montor you buy you need to test it well
with the application you’d like to use.

Unique and easy to use graphics programs
http://www.ransen.com
G
Greg
Jul 16, 2004
Ah, yes, I understand exactly what you’re talking about. You’re right – I had completely forgotten about that aspect!

Yes, if the video pixels don’t line up nicely with the pixels on the LCD, *and* the LCD doesn’t do the necessary signal processing (anti-aliasing) very well, I fully agree – it can be worse than a CRT. My understanding is that if you set the video card resolution to the native resolution of the LCD, that problem can be almost completely avoided – do you agree? (many LCDs have a phase adjustment for this, both auto and manual) And if it is, the resulting display can be crisper than a CRT.

And of course, if you us a digital interface to the LCD, that’s even better again. (naturally, the interface between the LCD on my laptop and the embedded graphics card is digital, avoiding the issue you describe when the native resolution is used – 1600×1200)

Greg.

"O Ransen" wrote in message
Greg,

You are confusing two sorts of "pixels".

When I worked on CAD graphics drivers a few years ago I
added anti-aliassing into the lines drawn into the video ram, where a pixel is (usually these days) 3 bytes or 24 bits.
That is software antialiassing.

But that signal gets transformed from a digital list of
values in a scanline into an analog signal which gets
transferred to the outpt of your video card.

At the other end of the (analog) black cable connecting
your computer to the video card is a CRT or an LCD.

What happens there depends on the physical "pixels" which make up the actual physical stuff which emits
light.

In CRTs it is a glowing phosphor.

In LCDs it is a semi-conductor.

Either way they are arranged in an array of pixels
which may or may not correspond to pixels of the
video card. But the signal which arrives there is
analog, and remains analog in CRTs and gets changed
into digital in LCDs.

Problems occur because what was a wonderful high
quality analog signal for CRTs, may not match up
so well with LCDs.

Mismatches between the two sorts of pixels is what
causes problems:

bits in memory
vs
physical light emmitting matter on the display surface.

Whatever montor you buy you need to test it well
with the application you’d like to use.

Unique and easy to use graphics programs
http://www.ransen.com
OR
O Ransen
Jul 16, 2004
On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 16:39:48 +1000, "Greg"
wrote:

Yes, if the video pixels don’t line up nicely with the pixels on the LCD, *and* the LCD doesn’t do the necessary signal processing (anti-aliasing) very well, I fully agree – it can be worse than a CRT. My understanding is that if you set the video card resolution to the native resolution of the LCD, that problem can be almost completely avoided – do you agree?

Yes, but another problem I had is that I bought a laptop with a high res LCD without thinking about t much. Then I was not able to set the font size and resolution to something I was happy with. I’m getting on in years and do not want high res with tiny characters… ….heigh ho…

Unique and easy to use graphics programs
http://www.ransen.com
MR
Mike Russell
Jul 18, 2004
N Perry wrote:
I am going to replace my CRT monitor. I am not sure weather to replace it with another CRT or with a LCD monitor. Do any of you have opinions as to which is the best for editing photos. Thank.

Short answer – stick with a CRT.

Longer answer – the results with higher quality LCDs can be stunning on both Windows and Macintosh, but LCD’s are not for the faint of heart. Use a CRT unless you are willing to do some homework, and spend a bit more on a higher quality LCD display, such as an Apple Cinema display, and video card that supports digital video output.

Here’s a nice article discussing the Apple display that can get you started on the issues.
http://www.computer-darkroom.com/acd/acd.htm


Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com
www.geigy.2y.net
R
Roberto
Jul 18, 2004
Mike is right on the money.

Here’s the prob… many people seem enamoured over a LCD monitor’s much smaller housing than the actual screen quality itself.

I spend much more time looking at my screen than the tan plastic that holds it. 🙂

Buying the cheapest LCD and thinking you’ve "got it made"… a foolish choice for those who depend on their screen for accuracy and their livelihoods. When I eat at a restaurant, the food is important, not the chairs & tables.

CRT is proven and very affordable. If a small housing is important, fork out 1500.00 for the Apple display… hope it’s worth it too you!

JD

"Mike Russell" wrote in message
N Perry wrote:
I am going to replace my CRT monitor. I am not sure weather to replace it with another CRT or with a LCD monitor. Do any of you have opinions as to which is the best for editing photos. Thank.

Short answer – stick with a CRT.

Longer answer – the results with higher quality LCDs can be stunning on
both
Windows and Macintosh, but LCD’s are not for the faint of heart. Use a
CRT
unless you are willing to do some homework, and spend a bit more on a
higher
quality LCD display, such as an Apple Cinema display, and video card that supports digital video output.

Here’s a nice article discussing the Apple display that can get you
started
on the issues.
http://www.computer-darkroom.com/acd/acd.htm


Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com
www.geigy.2y.net

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