Colors after calibration & profile conversion

MV
Posted By
miha.valencic
Apr 14, 2006
Views
733
Replies
10
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Closed
Hi!

I profiled my monitor (on a notebook) today, and now colors are off (in non Photoshop programs). I read all that I could find on color profiles and color management issues, but I am still missing something.

From what I read, I gather that:
* monitor is calibrated and
* I have a color profile for it (icc)
* which is assigned (windows xp under display settings)
* and Photoshop knows about it automagically

I used i1 (Gretag Machbeth) hw/sw for monitor calibration. Now, I understand that only _some_ applications are aware of the color profiles and so only _those_ apps will render the "right" colors on screen. But what I do not understand is, why do pictures, viewed with IrfanView for instance, look duller now? Is there a way to achieve good colors in web browsers (and ordinary image viewers) and at the same time use Photoshop with calibrated and profiled monitor to work with images? If I understand correctly, the modified LUT table causes windows to shift colors (this is what happens after machine starts up), but Photoshop knows how to handle that (the icc profile). Is there a way that LUT would not be modified and Photoshop would use a different icc for monitor? Or is that too much for icc monitor profile to handle? That way, web would look like it did before calibration and Photoshop would show correct colors… I even installed the new Color Control Panel from MS, but that confused even more. Even though my normal display settings show that I have assigned the monitor profile and it is the default one, this app does not show that profile for my display device. But I figure it is missing something.

Before, the monitor was not profiled and web pictures were, say OK. After profiling, web pictures are dull, but when opened in Photoshop, they look better.

Another question, related to profile conversion. My default working color space is Adobe RGB 1998. When I open an image without a profile, I choose the sRGB profile for that image. Do I need to select an option to _convert_ the image from source profile to my working profile? Same goes for images with embedded profile, which is not Adobe1998.

Or, to put the question another way: Should I always convert to working profile? Even if the source profile is sRGB? Why is editing in the target device profile bad?

Thanks,
Miha.

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MR
Mike Russell
Apr 14, 2006
From:

I profiled my monitor (on a notebook) today, and now colors are off (in non Photoshop programs). I read all that I could find on color profiles and color management issues, but I am still missing something.

Notebook LCD are notorious for displaying overly bright and saturated colors. This makes the screen look more attractive to a potential buyer, and marketing people for successful companies are smart enough to pick up on this.

As you mention below, your are using Adobe RGB as your working space, and it is normal for non color management aware apps to display duller colors in this situation.

From what I read, I gather that:
* monitor is calibrated and
* I have a color profile for it (icc)
* which is assigned (windows xp under display settings)
* and Photoshop knows about it automagically

This all sounds correct.

I used i1 (Gretag Machbeth) hw/sw for monitor calibration. Now, I understand that only _some_ applications are aware of the color profiles and so only _those_ apps will render the "right" colors on screen. But what I do not understand is, why do pictures, viewed with IrfanView for instance, look duller now? Is there a way to achieve good colors in web browsers (and ordinary image viewers) and at the same time use Photoshop with calibrated and profiled monitor to work with images?

If you want non color aware apps to display your images correctly, work in sRGB. Contrary to what you may here, there will be no – repeat no – quality issue with sRGB compared with Adobe RGB.

If I understand correctly, the modified LUT table causes windows to shift colors (this is what happens after machine starts up), but Photoshop knows how to handle that (the icc profile).

This is slightly backwards. A device such as the Eye One Color does two things: calibration and characterization.

Calibration changes the appearance of your display, with the goal of bringing it to a known state. Calibration is generallly accomplished with a combination of manual adjustments, and/or using the video card’s hardware lookup tables (LUT). You will have some choices of color temp and contrast (gamma) setting for calibration. In general, depending on your choices, the end result of calibration will probably be very close to an sRGB monitor, and all applications will benefit from this.

Characterization measures, but does not alter the appearance of the display, and the result is accurate definitons of your red, green, and blue colors. This information, plus some other items including liniearization tables, is stored in the profile. Only color aware apps will benefit from characterization.

Is there a
way that LUT would not be modified and Photoshop would use a different icc for monitor? Or is that too much for icc monitor profile to handle?

Although I advise against it, the best you could do is to try to choose a gamma and color temp that are as close to your monitors native settings as possible, so the LUT would have little effect.

That way, web would look like it did before calibration and Photoshop would show correct colors…

I see what you’re getting at, which is to have your non color aware apps work the way they did before. This is probably not the best way to go about it because your images will still look dull on other people’s systems.

I even installed the new Color Control
Panel from MS, but that confused even more. Even though my normal display settings show that I have assigned the monitor profile and it is the default one, this app does not show that profile for my display device. But I figure it is missing something.

By "this app" do you mean Photoshop? If so, the following procedure worked for older versions of Photoshop: run adobe gamma once open your display profile, and quit without modifying it. Adobe gamma will act as a bloodhound on Photoshop’s behalf, and set the necessary registry values so that Photoshop can then locate and use the correct monitor profile.

Before, the monitor was not profiled and web pictures were, say OK. After profiling, web pictures are dull, but when opened in Photoshop, they look better.

As mentioned, your monitor is closer now to an sRGB monitor, which has less saturation than the typical notebook.

Another question, related to profile conversion. My default working color space is Adobe RGB 1998. When I open an image without a profile, I choose the sRGB profile for that image.

This is usually correct unless you have been informed otherwise by the person providing the image.

Do I need to select an
option to _convert_ the image from source profile to my working profile? Same goes for images with embedded profile, which is not Adobe1998.

Go to the Color Settings dialog (ctrl-shift-K) and set all of the profile mismatch options to "Ask when opening".

Or, to put the question another way: Should I always convert to working profile?

Yes. If you want to preserve the appearance of the image, always convert to your working space.

Even if the source profile is sRGB? Why is editing in the target device profile bad?

We all worked that way 10 years ago, but this is no longer wise. Working in the target space profile (whether monitor or printer) is consdered poor practice for a variety of good reasons.

For example, it’s important to be able to set a neutral by making the red, green, and blue channels equal, and this is not generally true for a device profile. Also, consider the day when you upgrade your system – now all your old photographs will be married to your old display.

Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com
BH
Bill Hilton
Apr 14, 2006
writes …

I profiled my monitor (on a notebook) today, and now colors are off (in non Photoshop programs).

Typically when you get a big mismatch it’s because the monitor profile wasn’t made correctly, at least for a CRT monitor. But laptops are often very hard to profile accurately so maybe it’s just because you are on a laptop and can’t get a real accurate profile with it.

I understand that only _some_ applications are aware of the color profiles and so only _those_ apps will render the "right" colors on screen.

Right.

But what I do not understand is, why do pictures, viewed with IrfanView for instance, look duller now?

Because they don’t recognize the monitor profile so colors are represented differently.

Is there a way to achieve good colors in web browsers (and ordinary image viewers) and at the same time use Photoshop with calibrated and profiled monitor to work with images?

It’s easy to do this on a CRT or good LCD monitor that’s accurately calibrated. Typically you work in your chosen working space (say AdobeRGB), then convert to sRGB and do ‘save for web’ and make the jpeg. On my CRTs I typically see a slight color shift in saturated colors but most colors look fine (relatively unchanged) … on my three laptops I can never get as good a match though and I think this is due to the difficulties in accurately profiling the laptop screen, even with something like Eye-One.

Before, the monitor was not profiled and web pictures were, say OK. After profiling, web pictures are dull, but when opened in Photoshop, they look better.

If you got better results before profiling the monitor then you can set Photoshop to ignore color management (ie the monitor profile and working spaces) and you should then get a better match for web images. The root cause of your problem is that it’s hard to accurately profile a laptop monitor (with some high-end exceptions) … I think it’s generally agreed that you get better (more accurate color) results with CRTs and the better LCDs than with the TFT laptop screens and no one I know claims to get really accurate colors on a laptop. You can work around this by simply turning off color management in Photoshop, but of course the excellent ICM color management is one of the reasons to get Photoshop in the first place. You basically cripple Photoshop so you can work on a laptop.

Should I always convert to working
profile? Even if the source profile is sRGB?

If the source profile is sRGB there’s no point in converting to AdobeRGB, especially if the image is going to the web, since you’d need to convert it BACK to sRGB anyway to get more accurate colors. If it’s untagged or in a ‘device specific space’ I’ll always convert.

Why is editing in the target device profile bad?

It isn’t.

If the image is tagged with a ‘working space’ profile then I’d leave it in that space, work on it, save it in that space and then make a copy, convert to sRGB (if going to the web) and make my jpeg from that. The one problem with this concept is if the image is in a really, really wide space like ProPhoto (whose gamut is, IIRC, ‘all visible light’) or another space that’s so wide-gamut that the monitor can’t display many of the colors … then you are editing in the dark with saturated colors since the monitor won’t be able to display the changes. But images tagged in more moderate space like say Ektaspace (gamut of saturated E-6 film) or AdobeRGB should probably be opened unconverted.

On the other hand if the image is tagged with a ‘device space’ (typically a scanner profile or a monitor profile) then I’d immediately convert it to a ‘working space’ before working on it.

Hope this helps … I think the basic problem is with your laptop monitor profile, a problem many of us share.

Bill
N
nomail
Apr 14, 2006
Mike Russell wrote:

Or, to put the question another way: Should I always convert to working profile?

Yes. If you want to preserve the appearance of the image, always convert to your working space.

Why would keeping the image in sRGB *not* preserve the appearance of the image? There is no reason to always use your *default* working space, because that’s all it is: a default space. As long as you use an abstract (grey balanced) working space, it may just as well be something else, for example sRGB, ProPhotoRGB, BruceRGB, ColorMatchRGB or whatever.


Johan W. Elzenga johan<<at>>johanfoto.nl Editor / Photographer http://www.johanfoto.nl
MR
Mike Russell
Apr 14, 2006
"Johan W. Elzenga" wrote in message
Mike Russell wrote:

Or, to put the question another way: Should I always convert to working profile?

Yes. If you want to preserve the appearance of the image, always convert to
your working space.

Why would keeping the image in sRGB *not* preserve the appearance of the image? There is no reason to always use your *default* working space, because that’s all it is: a default space. As long as you use an abstract (grey balanced) working space, it may just as well be something else, for example sRGB, ProPhotoRGB, BruceRGB, ColorMatchRGB or whatever.

You’re correct, Johan.

The concept I was after was converting versus assigning. If the appearance of the image is correct, use Convert to Profile. If you want to change the appearance, use Assign Profile.


Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com
MV
miha.valencic
Apr 15, 2006
Guys,

thank you all very much in confirming/clarifying my issues. I will calibrate the desktop LCD (which is one of a better Sony LCDs) as well and see what changes I get there.

It is interesting, that on my laptop, I don’t see a difference when converting from Adobe98 to sRGB (soft proofing in Photoshop). Maybe because the pictures I was working with don’t have colors which would be presented differently.

There is still something that puzzles me though. Even when I open an image in Photoshop and soft-proof it to either sRGB or Monitor profile, the image has slightly different colours than the one displayed with, say, IrfanView. Why is that? I can post a screenshot if that would help.

Thanks,
Miha
MR
Mike Russell
Apr 15, 2006
wrote in message
Guys,

thank you all very much in confirming/clarifying my issues. I will calibrate the desktop LCD (which is one of a better Sony LCDs) as well and see what changes I get there.

Also experiment with viewing one of your images on a CRT system and see if the image is similar.

It is interesting, that on my laptop, I don’t see a difference when converting from Adobe98 to sRGB (soft proofing in Photoshop). Maybe because the pictures I was working with don’t have colors which would be presented differently.

Think of a profile as a language, and profile conversion as a translation that keeps the original appearance or "meaning" of the colors. If the translation can be done accurately, which is most of the time, you will see the exact same screen appearance before and after the translation.

There is still something that puzzles me though. Even when I open an image in Photoshop and soft-proof it to either sRGB or Monitor profile, the image has slightly different colours than the one displayed with, say, IrfanView. Why is that? I can post a screenshot if that would help.

Soft proofing tells your computer "show me how the device represented by this profile will display this image". It will generally alter the appearance of the colors, depending on the options you have selected, particularly if you use Perceptual instead of Relative Colorimetric. There "should" be a combination of settings for soft profiling the display profile that will exactly match what you see in Irfanview – make sure you select black comp and relative colorimetric.

Mike Russell
www.mike.russell-home.net
N
nomail
Apr 15, 2006
wrote:

It is interesting, that on my laptop, I don’t see a difference when converting from Adobe98 to sRGB (soft proofing in Photoshop). Maybe because the pictures I was working with don’t have colors which would be presented differently.

No, there is a very simple explanation for this. Even if you look at an AdobeRGB image, the screen will show this in ‘screenRGB’, which happens to be very close to sRGB. This is what a monitor profile is used for: to convert the AdobeRGB colors to ‘screenRGB’ colors in the best way possible. Consequently, you won’t see the difference between AdobeRGB and sRGB, even if the image *does* include some ‘out of gamut’ colors for sRGB, because these colors will be ‘out of gamut’ for your screen as well.


Johan W. Elzenga johan<<at>>johanfoto.nl Editor / Photographer http://www.johanfoto.nl
N
nomail
Apr 15, 2006
Mike Russell wrote:

Why would keeping the image in sRGB *not* preserve the appearance of the image? There is no reason to always use your *default* working space, because that’s all it is: a default space. As long as you use an abstract (grey balanced) working space, it may just as well be something else, for example sRGB, ProPhotoRGB, BruceRGB, ColorMatchRGB or whatever.

You’re correct, Johan.

The concept I was after was converting versus assigning. If the appearance of the image is correct, use Convert to Profile. If you want to change the appearance, use Assign Profile.

I understand, but that wasn’t the question. The question was whether you should -after assigning untagged images to sRGB- convert from sRGB to AdobeRGB, if AdobeRGB happens to be your default space.

The answer to that question is: No, you shouldn’t. First of all you do not gain anything by converting sRGB to AdobeRGB. And secondly because -contrary to popular belief- you actually *lose* some color information when doing so.


Johan W. Elzenga johan<<at>>johanfoto.nl Editor / Photographer http://www.johanfoto.nl
M
Mardon
Apr 16, 2006
wrote:

Guys,
thank you all very much in confirming/clarifying my issues.
<*snip*>
Thanks,
Miha

For a long time I was trying to understand colour management and colour profiles by asking questions in newsgroups and reading web tutorials. I got so much contradictory information that I became totally lost. The solution to my problem was to purchase the book "Real World Color Management, second edition" by Bruce Fraser, Chris Murphy and Fred Bunting. It’s excellent! If you really want to understand the correct answers to the questions you’ve asked, my best advice is to buy the book and read it. Things will become so much more understandable.
MV
miha.valencic
Apr 17, 2006
Soft proofing tells your computer "show me how the device represented by this profile will display this image". It will generally alter the appearance of the colors, depending on the options you have selected, particularly if you use Perceptual instead of Relative Colorimetric. There "should" be a combination of settings for soft profiling the display profile that will exactly match what you see in Irfanview – make sure you select black comp and relative colorimetric.

I have. I use Relative Colorimetric, black point and dither (dither makes no difference in this case). I will give it a rest, since the difference is really minor.

totally lost. The solution to my problem was to purchase the book "Real World Color Management, second edition" by Bruce Fraser, Chris

I will order that one also. 🙂

Thanks,
Miha.

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