What’s neutral gray?

H
Posted By
HowardG
Aug 10, 2007
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764
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9
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Closed
A designer is working with one of my photographs, laying it out as a poster. His typeface below my image is supposed to be a pale neutral gray. However, what he’s showing me in the proof is a reddish gray. He says it’s composed equally of 6% cyan, 6% magenta and 6% yellow. When I do type here with those units of cyan, magenta and yellow it looks reddish on my calibrated monitor.

In fact the spectrum in the Photoshop Color Picker just to the right of the grays is reddish with those units until the cyan is upped to 9%. At that point the colors to the right of the grays jumps to blues on the color picker. There is a dramatic shift in the spectrum just by going from 8% to 9% cyan. That appears to be the crossover point. When I use 9% cyan, 6% magenta and 6% yellow the type looks decidedly more neutral.

I have noticed that in the Color Picker if you check the box Web Only Colors the grays shown there always have more cyan than magenta or yellow and yet, they always look neutral.

The designer says that he can see no difference in his japanese color swatches between 6C+6M+6Y and 9C+6M+6Y. Nor can he see much difference on screen. I sure can!!!! He says the difference is imperceptable and that adding 3% cyan is so tiny an amount that it’s neglible. Excuse me but the difference between 6% and 9% appears to be 50%. That’s not negligible. Who’s wrong here?

Why do neutral grays require more cyan? Or do they?

How much difference would there be when I go to press using high quality offset? Isn’t there still going to be a perceptable difference?

I opted for light gray, by the way so my name under the image wouldn’t distract from the image, itself. The lettering had been vibrant blue before I protested.

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R
Roberto
Aug 10, 2007
"HowardG" wrote in message
A designer is working with one of my photographs, laying it out as a poster. His typeface below my image is supposed to be a pale neutral gray. However, what he’s showing me in the proof is a reddish gray. He says it’s composed equally of 6% cyan, 6% magenta and 6% yellow. When I do type here with those units of cyan, magenta and yellow it looks reddish on my calibrated monitor.

In fact the spectrum in the Photoshop Color Picker just to the right of the grays is reddish with those units until the cyan is upped to 9%. At that point the colors to the right of the grays jumps to blues on the color picker. There is a dramatic shift in the spectrum just by going from 8% to 9% cyan. That appears to be the crossover point. When I use 9% cyan, 6% magenta and 6% yellow the type looks decidedly more neutral.
I have noticed that in the Color Picker if you check the box Web Only Colors the grays shown there always have more cyan than magenta or yellow and yet, they always look neutral.

The designer says that he can see no difference in his japanese color swatches between 6C+6M+6Y and 9C+6M+6Y. Nor can he see much difference on screen. I sure can!!!! He says the difference is imperceptable and that adding 3% cyan is so tiny an amount that it’s neglible. Excuse me but the difference between 6% and 9% appears to be 50%. That’s not negligible. Who’s wrong here?

Why do neutral grays require more cyan? Or do they?

How much difference would there be when I go to press using high quality offset? Isn’t there still going to be a perceptable difference?
I opted for light gray, by the way so my name under the image wouldn’t distract from the image, itself. The lettering had been vibrant blue before I protested.

It should be gray. If it isn’t on your system then something is off with your calibration.

Somebody!
J
Jim
Aug 10, 2007
"HowardG" wrote in message
A designer is working with one of my photographs, laying it out as a poster. His typeface below my image is supposed to be a pale neutral gray. However, what he’s showing me in the proof is a reddish gray. He says it’s composed equally of 6% cyan, 6% magenta and 6% yellow. When I do type here with those units of cyan, magenta and yellow it looks reddish on my calibrated monitor.

In fact the spectrum in the Photoshop Color Picker just to the right of the grays is reddish with those units until the cyan is upped to 9%. At that point the colors to the right of the grays jumps to blues on the color picker. There is a dramatic shift in the spectrum just by going from 8% to 9% cyan. That appears to be the crossover point. When I use 9% cyan, 6% magenta and 6% yellow the type looks decidedly more neutral.
I have noticed that in the Color Picker if you check the box Web Only Colors the grays shown there always have more cyan than magenta or yellow and yet, they always look neutral.

The designer says that he can see no difference in his japanese color swatches between 6C+6M+6Y and 9C+6M+6Y. Nor can he see much difference on screen. I sure can!!!! He says the difference is imperceptable and that adding 3% cyan is so tiny an amount that it’s neglible. Excuse me but the difference between 6% and 9% appears to be 50%. That’s not negligible. Who’s wrong here?

Why do neutral grays require more cyan? Or do they?

How much difference would there be when I go to press using high quality offset? Isn’t there still going to be a perceptable difference?
I opted for light gray, by the way so my name under the image wouldn’t distract from the image, itself. The lettering had been vibrant blue before I protested.
If R=G=B=X for all values of X do not result in neutral gray, you may be using a color gamut which is
not gray balanced, or your monitor may not be profiled correctly. Absent a color gamut, the value of X
has no meaning in the sense that we can associate a color with the value of
X.

Sorry, I don’t have a list of gamuts which are not gray balanced.

Jim
T
Tacit
Aug 10, 2007
In article <zZ3vi.48980$>,
"Jim" wrote:

If R=G=B=X for all values of X do not result in neutral gray, you may be using a color gamut which is
not gray balanced, or your monitor may not be profiled correctly.

The original poster is not working in RGB; he’s working in CMYK. In CMYK, C=M=Y does not produce a neutral gray; it produces a warm gray.


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X
XCATivor
Aug 10, 2007
"HowardG" wrote in message
Why do neutral grays require more cyan? Or do they?

C8/M6/Y6/K0 is neutral.
IMHO, for typeface, (especially small) this is far better (but maybe too pale for offset): C0/M0/Y0/K10


.. .::xcat
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MR
Mike Russell
Aug 11, 2007
"HowardG" wrote in message
A designer is working with one of my photographs, laying it out as a poster. His typeface below my image is supposed to be a pale neutral gray. However, what he’s showing me in the proof is a reddish gray. He says it’s composed equally of 6% cyan, 6% magenta and 6% yellow. When I do type here with those units of cyan, magenta and yellow it looks reddish on my calibrated monitor.

Tacit’s right, and so is your monitor. Cyan is the weakest of the three inks, and should be several points higher than the other inks for a neutral gray. If you used the info palette in RGB mode, you’d see a distinct red cast.

In fact the spectrum in the Photoshop Color Picker just to the right of the grays is reddish with those units until the cyan is upped to 9%. At that point the colors to the right of the grays jumps to blues on the color picker. There is a dramatic shift in the spectrum just by going from 8% to 9% cyan. That appears to be the crossover point. When I use 9% cyan, 6% magenta and 6% yellow the type looks decidedly more neutral.

This all sounds normal. The easiest way of all to get a good gray is to insist that the print be only on the K plate. This will also eliminate any registration problems that could cause color fringes around the edges. This is also why it is not unusual to put a black border, three or so points wide, around an image.

I have noticed that in the Color Picker if you check the box Web Only Colors the grays shown there always have more cyan than magenta or yellow and yet, they always look neutral.

Yes.

The designer says that he can see no difference in his japanese color swatches between 6C+6M+6Y and 9C+6M+6Y. Nor can he see much difference on screen. I sure can!!!! He says the difference is imperceptable and that adding 3% cyan is so tiny an amount that it’s neglible. Excuse me but the difference between 6% and 9% appears to be 50%. That’s not negligible. Who’s wrong here?

Your designer is wrong.

Why do neutral grays require more cyan? Or do they?

How much difference would there be when I go to press using high quality offset? Isn’t there still going to be a perceptable difference?

Yes, though that problem, and others, will show up in the proof, which I highly suggest you do if the print run is in the several thousand dollar range. A digital proof for a hundred dollars or so will save a lot of grief in a several thousand dollar press run. Plus, if the type is not neutral, imagine what might happen to the photograph itself.

I opted for light gray, by the way so my name under the image wouldn’t distract from the image, itself. The lettering had been vibrant blue before I protested.

Cultures differ. On the rare occasions I go to Japan, I’m always struck by the number of commercial products that use pure magenta and cyan in the packaging. So your designer may have thought something like a reflex blue was muted compared to the "normal" colors he or she uses. —
Mike Russell – www.curvemeister.com
H
HowardG
Aug 11, 2007
Boy, have these replies been helpful!!!! Thank you!

Hmmmm. Now how to present this to the art director?

I prepared a little comparison demo, prepared in CMYK with three side by side squares composed of

1. 6C+6M+6Y
2. 9C+6M+6Y
3. 0C+0M+0Y+10K

The difference is quite clear and backs up what’s been said here.

I guess I’ll upload the file to him with excerpts from this thread. Not that I’m going to get anywhere. IIn his last email he dismissed my claim that I was seeing red, saying that 6C+6M+6Y looked neutral to him and that an additional 3C looked made the gray look bluish. I wonder if his monitor is accurately calibrated.
H
HowardG
Aug 11, 2007
Boy, have these replies been helpful!!!! Thank you!

Hmmmm. Now how to present this to the art director?

I prepared a little comparison demo, prepared in CMYK with three side by side squares composed of

1. 6C+6M+6Y
2. 9C+6M+6Y
3. 0C+0M+0Y+10K

The difference is quite clear and backs up what’s been said here.

I guess I’ll upload the file to him with excerpts from this thread. Not that I’m going to get anywhere. IIn his last email he dismissed my claim that I was seeing red, saying that 6C+6M+6Y looked neutral to him and that an additional 3C looked made the gray look bluish. I wonder if his monitor is accurately calibrated.
H
HowardG
Aug 11, 2007
Boy, have these replies been helpful!!!! Thank you!

Hmmmm. Now how to present this to the art director?

I prepared a little comparison demo, prepared in CMYK with three side by side squares composed of

1. 6C+6M+6Y
2. 9C+6M+6Y
3. 0C+0M+0Y+10K

The difference is quite clear and backs up what’s been said here.

I guess I’ll upload the file to him with excerpts from this thread. Not that I’m going to get anywhere. IIn his last email he dismissed my claim that I was seeing red, saying that 6C+6M+6Y looked neutral to him and that an additional 3C looked made the gray look bluish. I wonder if his monitor is accurately calibrated.
X
XCATivor
Aug 12, 2007
"HowardG" wrote in message
Boy, have these replies been helpful!!!! Thank you!

Hmmmm. Now how to present this to the art director?

Tell him to open Color Picker in Photoshop, select neutral gray RGB 128/128/128 and look at the CMYK values 55/42/42/8 (=0/0/0/60)

If 0/0/0/60 doesn’t look neutral to him he should calibrate his system…


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