Seeking Consistent Color — CS3, Zoomify export

RK
Posted By
Richard Karash
Nov 11, 2007
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546
Replies
13
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Closed
I’m using the Zoomify export in CS3 Mac Leopard. Mostly, everything is going smoothly.

I have an image, Export… Zoomify. The magic works, but viewing the resulting image in a web browser, there is a color shift from what I saw in photoshop. It’s a fall foliage image, and the shift is towards ugly greens.

How can I export to Zoomify with consistent color?

-=- Rick

More: I’m doing this with the Safari browser. Viewing PShop image and the Zoomify result on the same system, same monitor. No monitor calibration.

Here’s a small sample (400k) from a much larger fall panorama and the zoomify comparison:

http://2under.net/private/TestZoomify

Note the color shift towards green and loss of warm tones.


Richard Karash
Richard "at" Karash "dot" com

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Wolfgang Weisselberg
Nov 11, 2007
Richard Karash wrote:

viewing the resulting image in a web browser, there is a color shift from what I saw in photoshop. It’s a fall foliage image, and the shift is towards ugly greens.

http://2under.net/private/TestZoomify

Note the color shift towards green and loss of warm tones.

There’s *no* color shift. Except for noise differences (due to different compressions), the images are identical.

Screenshot of above webpage, moved part of Zoomify-image over your screenshot. Outlined by these blue bars, else you’d never find it.
http://weissel.smugmug.com/photos/220120314-X3.jpg

Your problem is Mac and Safari:
http://blogs.smugmug.com/don/2007/02/14/this-is-your-mac-on- drugs/

-Wolfgang
K
KatWoman
Nov 11, 2007
"Richard Karash" wrote in message
I’m using the Zoomify export in CS3 Mac Leopard. Mostly, everything is going smoothly.

I have an image, Export… Zoomify. The magic works, but viewing the resulting image in a web browser, there is a color shift from what I saw in photoshop. It’s a fall foliage image, and the shift is towards ugly greens.

How can I export to Zoomify with consistent color?

-=- Rick

More: I’m doing this with the Safari browser. Viewing PShop image and the Zoomify result on the same system, same monitor. No monitor calibration.

Here’s a small sample (400k) from a much larger fall panorama and the zoomify comparison:

http://2under.net/private/TestZoomify

Note the color shift towards green and loss of warm tones.

Richard Karash
Richard "at" Karash "dot" com

colors are the same (but saving for web would change them to srgb anyway) (zoomify , is it a color managed program>?)
bottom image is blurry
(too much compression<or not good compression settings, compressing already compressed files)
PF
Paul Furman
Nov 12, 2007
KatWoman wrote:
"Richard Karash" wrote
I’m using the Zoomify export in CS3 Mac Leopard. Mostly, everything is going smoothly.

I have an image, Export… Zoomify. The magic works, but viewing the resulting image in a web browser, there is a color shift from what I saw in photoshop. It’s a fall foliage image, and the shift is towards ugly greens.

How can I export to Zoomify with consistent color?

More: I’m doing this with the Safari browser. Viewing PShop image and the Zoomify result on the same system, same monitor. No monitor calibration.

Here’s a small sample (400k) from a much larger fall panorama and the zoomify comparison:

http://2under.net/private/TestZoomify

Note the color shift towards green and loss of warm tones.

colors are the same (but saving for web would change them to srgb anyway)

CS save for web unfortunately is not that smart, at least with CS1.

(zoomify , is it a color managed program>?)
bottom image is blurry
(too much compression<or not good compression settings, compressing already compressed files)
RK
Richard Karash
Nov 12, 2007
In article <5kLZi.2166$>, KatWoman
wrote:

"Richard Karash" wrote in message
I’m using the Zoomify export in CS3 Mac Leopard. Mostly, everything is going smoothly.

I have an image, Export… Zoomify. The magic works, but viewing the resulting image in a web browser, there is a color shift from what I saw in photoshop. It’s a fall foliage image, and the shift is towards ugly greens.

How can I export to Zoomify with consistent color?

-=- Rick

More: I’m doing this with the Safari browser. Viewing PShop image and the Zoomify result on the same system, same monitor. No monitor calibration.

Here’s a small sample (400k) from a much larger fall panorama and the zoomify comparison:

http://2under.net/private/TestZoomify

Note the color shift towards green and loss of warm tones.

colors are the same (but saving for web would change them to srgb anyway) (zoomify , is it a color managed program>?)
bottom image is blurry
(too much compression<or not good compression settings, compressing already compressed files)

Thanks Kat and Wolfgang…

I’m worried about the color, not the compression/blur.

Here are two files that look exactly alike when displayed in PhotoShop (red flowers, leaves on birches, color of the rock), but they look different when opened in Safari. What causes the different appearance in Safari and how can I control it to give the same appearance?

http://www.2under.net/private/TestZoomify/TestZoomify.jpg http://2under.net/private/TestZoomify/index_img/TileGroup0/2 -1-0.jpg

(The first is my Photoshop jpg, the second is a 256×256 tile extracted by Zoomify export.)

Two two files have the same color when opened in photoshop, as Kat and Wolfgang said. But, they certainly look different when opened in Safari or Firefox. What’s up?

Color space? Both are Adobe RGB (1998). Next, look at Profiles…

Ahh… For the tile it’s "Don’t Color Manage this Document." (Photoshop… Edit… Assign Profile…). The larger file, TestZoomify.jpg says "Working RGB: Adobe RGB 1998".

Testing… Open the little tile in Photoshop. Then Edit… Assign Profile… Working RGB: Adobe RGB (1998); Save… jpg, high quality. Now, open this file in Safari… Bingo! Just what I want. I conclude my problem is that Zoomify Export saves it’s tiles without a profile.

"Save for Web"… Checking the box "ICC Profile," I get the colors I want opening the tile in Safari. Save for Web, high quality give me an the same size file as Zoomify Export.

So far, so good. I have tiles that display properly in Safari.

But, the Zoomify viewer still give the muddly/green look. Ugh. Now what?

So, obviously my vivid reds have something to do with the ICC Profile in the tiles and how that’s displayed. I have 256×256 tiles that display in Safari the way I want, but not in the Zoomify viewer. Does anyone have any suggestions?

-=- Rick


Richard Karash
Richard "at" Karash "dot" com
PF
Paul Furman
Nov 12, 2007
Richard Karash wrote:
In article <5kLZi.2166$>, KatWoman
wrote:

"Richard Karash" wrote in message
I’m using the Zoomify export in CS3 Mac Leopard. Mostly, everything is going smoothly.

I have an image, Export… Zoomify. The magic works, but viewing the resulting image in a web browser, there is a color shift from what I saw in photoshop. It’s a fall foliage image, and the shift is towards ugly greens.

How can I export to Zoomify with consistent color?

-=- Rick

More: I’m doing this with the Safari browser. Viewing PShop image and the Zoomify result on the same system, same monitor. No monitor calibration.

Here’s a small sample (400k) from a much larger fall panorama and the zoomify comparison:

http://2under.net/private/TestZoomify

Note the color shift towards green and loss of warm tones.
colors are the same (but saving for web would change them to srgb anyway) (zoomify , is it a color managed program>?)
bottom image is blurry
(too much compression<or not good compression settings, compressing already compressed files)

Thanks Kat and Wolfgang…

I’m worried about the color, not the compression/blur.

Here are two files that look exactly alike when displayed in PhotoShop (red flowers, leaves on birches, color of the rock), but they look different when opened in Safari. What causes the different appearance in Safari and how can I control it to give the same appearance?
http://www.2under.net/private/TestZoomify/TestZoomify.jpg http://2under.net/private/TestZoomify/index_img/TileGroup0/2 -1-0.jpg
(The first is my Photoshop jpg, the second is a 256×256 tile extracted by Zoomify export.)

Two two files have the same color when opened in photoshop, as Kat and Wolfgang said. But, they certainly look different when opened in Safari or Firefox. What’s up?

Color space? Both are Adobe RGB (1998). Next, look at Profiles…
Ahh… For the tile it’s "Don’t Color Manage this Document." (Photoshop… Edit… Assign Profile…). The larger file, TestZoomify.jpg says "Working RGB: Adobe RGB 1998".
Testing… Open the little tile in Photoshop. Then Edit… Assign Profile… Working RGB: Adobe RGB (1998); Save… jpg, high quality. Now, open this file in Safari… Bingo! Just what I want. I conclude my problem is that Zoomify Export saves it’s tiles without a profile.
"Save for Web"… Checking the box "ICC Profile," I get the colors I want opening the tile in Safari. Save for Web, high quality give me an the same size file as Zoomify Export.

So far, so good. I have tiles that display properly in Safari.
But, the Zoomify viewer still give the muddly/green look. Ugh. Now what?
So, obviously my vivid reds have something to do with the ICC Profile in the tiles and how that’s displayed.

Images which are adobeRGB lose their saturated reds when viewed as if they were sRGB.

I have 256×256 tiles that
display in Safari the way I want, but not in the Zoomify viewer. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Convert to sRGB (and I guess make sure to attach that profile for safari browsing) or do some browser sniffing and offer up adobeRGB images for safari surfers.
RK
Richard Karash
Nov 12, 2007
In article <o_OZi.20476$>, Paul
Furman wrote:

Richard Karash wrote:
So, obviously my vivid reds have something to do with the ICC Profile in the tiles and how that’s displayed.
….snip…

Images which are adobeRGB lose their saturated reds when viewed as if they were sRGB.

Thanks… That helps.

And… Images lose their saturated reds when saved "Don’t Color Manage this Document" and then displayed by a browser. (Somehow, when opened in Photoshop, the reds are still there.)

I have 256×256 tiles that
display in Safari the way I want, but not in the Zoomify viewer. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Convert to sRGB (and I guess make sure to attach that profile for safari browsing) or do some browser sniffing and offer up adobeRGB images for safari surfers.

I conclude that having a profile makes a big effect; which profile is a lesser effect.

Safari really loses the sat reds if the file is saved without a profile. Same for Firefox. I’ll assume for now it’s common to all browsers. I conclude that good practice is to make sure there’s a profile in any jpg (Edit… Assign Profile, and watch in the Save dialogs).

Which profile? I’ve tested it both ways. Safari does a pretty good job when the jpg is saved with either profile. Maybe some differences; I think when the profile is Adobe RGB, Safari displays it a little more vividly and it might be more true if saved with a profile sRGB, but this is pretty subtle, not the bigger shift I’m struggling with.

Further, even when I add a profile to each of the Zoomify Export jpgs, the Zoomify viewer loses the sat reds. The result looks like a browser displaying the jpg with no profile. I conclude that the free Zoomify viewer just doesn’t do color management and that this will be a problem for fall-foliage and other images with saturated reds.

Hope this may be helpful to someone else struggling with the loss of saturated reds for no-profile images in a browser and for all images in Zoomify Export from CS3.

Again, the demo is: http://2under.net/private/TestZoomify

-=- Rick


Richard Karash
Richard "at" Karash "dot" com
MR
Mike Russell
Nov 12, 2007
"Richard Karash" wrote in message
I’m using the Zoomify export in CS3 Mac Leopard. Mostly, everything is going smoothly.

I have an image, Export… Zoomify. The magic works, but viewing the resulting image in a web browser, there is a color shift from what I saw in photoshop. It’s a fall foliage image, and the shift is towards ugly greens.

How can I export to Zoomify with consistent color?

I’m not in a position to run Zoomify at the moment, but this is almost certainly a problem with embedded profiles. Open the images in Photoshop, and convert to the sRGB profile before re-saving. Then they will appear as they should on the web.

Mike Russell – www.curvemeister.com
MR
Mike Russell
Nov 13, 2007
"Richard Karash" wrote in message
I’m using the Zoomify export in CS3 Mac Leopard. Mostly, everything is going smoothly.
….
[re "drab color" example at http://2under.net/private/TestZoomi ]
How can I export to Zoomify with consistent color?

It turns out that both Zoomify and Safari are available as free downloads for Windows.

Zoomify, in particular, is an interesting app that allows you to create a pan and zoom flash presentation of an image.
http://zoomify.com/

When it comes to color saturation, passing out non sRGB images is a losing proposition. Since Zoomify, is not a "color aware" application, the final flash file does not include an embedded profile. In light of this, my recommendation is to use Photoshop’s Convert to Profile to convert to sRGB before exporting the image with Zoomify. Then the image will have the colors you intended for the vast majority of web viewers. As it is, almost everyone out there will see the "drab green" version of your image.

FYI – there appear to be two windows based color aware browsers: Safari public beta:
www.apple.com/safari/download

For the curious: untested Firefox beta nightly builds (also color aware): http://www.mozilla.org/developer/#builds

Mike Russell – www.curvemeister.com
RK
Richard Karash
Nov 13, 2007
In article <uP7_i.20571$>, Mike
Russell wrote:

"Richard Karash" wrote in message
I’m using the Zoomify export in CS3 Mac Leopard. Mostly, everything is going smoothly.

[re "drab color" example at http://2under.net/private/TestZoomify ]

(Corrected URL in the line above)

How can I export to Zoomify with consistent color?

It turns out that both Zoomify and Safari are available as free downloads for Windows.

Zoomify, in particular, is an interesting app that allows you to create a pan and zoom flash presentation of an image.
http://zoomify.com/

And, a version of Zoomify is built-in with CS3.

When it comes to color saturation, passing out non sRGB images is a losing proposition. Since Zoomify, is not a "color aware" application, the final flash file does not include an embedded profile.

The Flash file is a viewer that works with 256×256 jpg "tiles"; even when I add an embedded profile to each of the tiles, the Zoomify viewer does nothing different. I conclude the viewer is "not color-aware."

…In light of this, my
recommendation is to use Photoshop’s Convert to Profile to convert to sRGB before exporting the image with Zoomify. Then the image will have the colors you intended for the vast majority of web viewers. As it is, almost everyone out there will see the "drab green" version of your image.
FYI – there appear to be two windows based color aware browsers: Safari public beta:
www.apple.com/safari/download

For the curious: untested Firefox beta nightly builds (also color aware): http://www.mozilla.org/developer/#builds

Thanks Mike, for the additional folowup.

I followed your suggestion… Convert… sRGB, then File… Export… Zoomify. The result is much better, delivers the saturated reds that I need for the fall foliage images.

Your advice, "for web, use sRGB" makes a real difference and sounds right.

There is a lot going on here, especially in the saturated reds.

1. My original test http://2under.net/private/TestZoomify When viewed in a "non-color aware" browser, the top and bottom look the same (drab, lost the sat reds). Safari is color aware; the released version of Firefox is not. Explorer is not. Now I understand the comments from Kat and Wolfgang, "The colors are the same." Most people looking at my test wouldn’t see anything. Just a drab image.

2. The color differences I’m seeing are most visible in the saturated reds.

3. In Photoshop, Convert… sRGB, and save as high qual jpg. The colors change a little (bit more of sat reds); that’s OK, we are changing profiles. Save and view the result in Safari, see even more sat Reds. Why does the same file (which includes sRGB profile) look different in Safari vs. Photoshop?

4. Should we generally save image for the web WITH an embedded profile? For a non-color aware browser the profile makes no difference. I assume yes, so it will help with a color aware browser.

5. Zoomify Viewer is not-color-aware, even when when run in a color-aware browser. To use Zoomify, prepare the image for a non-color aware browser, then Export… Zoomify.

6. My test image, converted to sRGB, save as jpg, exported by Zoomify… now has too-much sat red when viewed in Win/Explorer, but that’s on an uncalibrated monitor, so I’m not sure.

With all this, here’s my net-net for working with images for display on the web and/or in Zoomify:

– Do my photo work in Photoshop, working space Adobe RGB, prepare my images for print and other use. Save as PSD.
– Convert image to sRGB. Back off the saturated reds just a bit. Save as jpg with profile.
– Export… Zoomify.
– Test the result on a couple of monitors, from Mac/Safari and from Win/Explorer.
– Adjust if necessary.

Thank again, Mike. Help like this is what makes USENET great.

-=- Rick


Richard Karash
Richard "at" Karash "dot" com
RK
Richard Karash
Nov 13, 2007
In article <111120072224126094%>, Richard Karash
wrote:

In article <o_OZi.20476$>, Paul
Furman wrote:

Images which are adobeRGB lose their saturated reds when viewed as if they were sRGB.

Thanks… That helps.

And… Images lose their saturated reds when saved "Don’t Color Manage this Document" and then displayed by a browser. (Somehow, when opened in Photoshop, the reds are still there.)

Correction: Images in Adobe RGB lose their saturated reds when displayed by a browser that doesn’t do color management (i.e. any browser other than Safari and current nightly builds of Firefox).

Therefore, images to be viewed with browsers generally should be in sRGB. In PhotoShop, Edit… Convert to Profile… sRGB.

(OP back… just cleaning up the record.)

-=- Rick


Richard Karash
Richard "at" Karash "dot" com
JN
Jeremy Nixon
Nov 13, 2007
Richard Karash wrote:

Which profile? I’ve tested it both ways. Safari does a pretty good job when the jpg is saved with either profile. Maybe some differences; I think when the profile is Adobe RGB, Safari displays it a little more vividly and it might be more true if saved with a profile sRGB, but this is pretty subtle, not the bigger shift I’m struggling with.

sRGB. Always convert to sRGB for web display. Using the wrong (or no) profile is the source of your problem.


Jeremy Nixon | address in header is valid
(formerly )
http://www.flickr.com/photos/100mph/
K
KatWoman
Nov 13, 2007
"Jeremy Nixon" <~$!~( )@( )u.defocus.net> wrote in message
Richard Karash wrote:

Which profile? I’ve tested it both ways. Safari does a pretty good job when the jpg is saved with either profile. Maybe some differences; I think when the profile is Adobe RGB, Safari displays it a little more vividly and it might be more true if saved with a profile sRGB, but this is pretty subtle, not the bigger shift I’m struggling with.

sRGB. Always convert to sRGB for web display. Using the wrong (or no) profile is the source of your problem.

BINGO
CORRECT ANSWER
RK
Richard Karash
Nov 13, 2007
In article <111120071402511090%>, Richard Karash
wrote:

I’m using the Zoomify export in CS3 Mac Leopard. Mostly, everything is going smoothly.

Many thanks to all who helped.

Convert to sRGB brings back saturated reds for this Fall Foliage image.

Just in case anyone is interested to see the result, it’s a fall color panorama of the shoreline of Eastman Lake in NH (near Dartmouth College) where I spend some of my time.

http://2under.net/0710EastmanLake

The overall image is 18,000 x 2400, but you only load one screenful at a time. Click and drag to pan, or zoom in for details. Depending on connection speed, it may take a while to load the tiles when you pan/zoom.

Created with the free Zoomify Export feature in Photoshop CS3. I think Zoomify is an interesting way to let people look at the detail they want to see without downloading all the bits.

I composited 14 images separate images, all shot hand-held, with PTGui. The stitching is excellent in the trees, but is a bit rough in the water (wind gusts don’t hold still for the photographer). Instead of trying to pretend this is one very-wide image, I left the jagged outline to show it’s a composite. When things aren’t moving, the compositing can be invisible.

Thanks again for all the help.

-=- Rick


Richard Karash
Richard "at" Karash "dot" com

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