Color Neutrality of black/white prints?

CD
Posted By
Colin D
Feb 13, 2006
Views
614
Replies
25
Status
Closed
I have run into a small problem with producing black/white prints from my inkjet printer, a Canon i9950 (same as i9900) when printing from scans of older family photographs.

The scans are converted to grayscale in photoshop so there is no suggestion of color shifts with the image, and when printed the results, while not *exactly* neutral gray, are pretty close, bearing in mind the printer is printing in three colors, but I have a client who considers that the slightest shift from absolute neutral is unacceptable.

Short of going to a quad-black or equivalent printing system, I consider the prints to be pretty good.

So, the question is, for those who do b/w prints from inkjets, how close to neutral is close enough, and has anyone run into this objection from a client, or even a family member?

Colin D.

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C
CWatters
Feb 13, 2006
"Colin D" wrote in message

So, the question is, for those who do b/w prints from inkjets, how close to neutral is close enough, and has anyone run into this objection from a client, or even a family member?

Colin D.

In the end the customer is always right.

Perhaps he wouldn’t notice the loss of picture quality if you told the printer to only use black? or is this one of those printers that never really stops using colour ink no matter how you configure it?
CJ
C J Southern
Feb 13, 2006
You’re in NZ aren’t you? (me too)

Anything I can print for you on my Epson 7800 (legendary for B & W), and send to you?

Cheers,

Colin
R
Ragnar
Feb 13, 2006
CMY is not really appropriate for professional work. Bite the bullet and get a CMYK or even six-ink printer.

John

"Colin D" wrote in message
I have run into a small problem with producing black/white prints from my inkjet printer, a Canon i9950 (same as i9900) when printing from scans of older family photographs.

The scans are converted to grayscale in photoshop so there is no suggestion of color shifts with the image, and when printed the results, while not *exactly* neutral gray, are pretty close, bearing in mind the printer is printing in three colors, but I have a client who considers that the slightest shift from absolute neutral is unacceptable.
Short of going to a quad-black or equivalent printing system, I consider the prints to be pretty good.

So, the question is, for those who do b/w prints from inkjets, how close to neutral is close enough, and has anyone run into this objection from a client, or even a family member?

Colin D.
SG
Scott Glasgow
Feb 13, 2006
John Rampling wrote:
CMY is not really appropriate for professional work. Bite the bullet and get a CMYK or even six-ink printer.

John

"Colin D" wrote in message
I have run into a small problem with producing black/white prints from my inkjet printer, a Canon i9950 (same as i9900) when printing from scans of older family photographs.

The scans are converted to grayscale in photoshop so there is no suggestion of color shifts with the image, and when printed the results, while not *exactly* neutral gray, are pretty close, bearing in mind the printer is printing in three colors, but I have a client who considers that the slightest shift from absolute neutral is unacceptable. Short of going to a quad-black or equivalent printing system, I
consider the prints to be pretty good.

So, the question is, for those who do b/w prints from inkjets, how close to neutral is close enough, and has anyone run into this objection from a client, or even a family member?

Colin D.

OK, I’m confused. You say that the printer is "… printing in three colors," but when I look up the specs on that model it says that it’s an eight-color printer. So, which is it? Does the printer have a true black cartridge? If so, look in your printer setup dialog (it may be on an advanced tab or somewhere else not obvious) for the option to use only black. I have this on my Epson C84 (which is good, since I use it only for BW printing), and I would think that it would be available on your higher end printer ("Canon’s No.1 photo printer in digital photo printing" – from their Australian site Web page for the i9950). Look in your printed(??) or online documentation for information on monochrome or greyscale printing.

Cheers,
Scott
CD
Colin D
Feb 14, 2006
C J Southern wrote:
You’re in NZ aren’t you? (me too)

Anything I can print for you on my Epson 7800 (legendary for B & W), and send to you?

Cheers,

Colin

Thanks for that offer, CJ, but the job, if it goes ahead, will involve some hundreds of prints at 6×4, from a mixed bag of 127, 120, 116, and other odd-ball size original in varying degrees of decay, all resized to 6×4 at 300 dpi. If the test runs dont’ satisfy this guy, I won’t be doing the rest of the scans.

Colin D.
CJ
C J Southern
Feb 14, 2006
"Colin D" wrote in message

Thanks for that offer, CJ, but the job, if it goes ahead, will involve some hundreds of prints at 6×4, from a mixed bag of 127, 120, 116, and other odd-ball size original in varying degrees of decay, all resized to 6×4 at 300 dpi. If the test runs dont’ satisfy this guy, I won’t be doing the rest of the scans.

No worries.

Just a word of caution if I may – I’ve been doing a few 6 * 4 and 7.5 * 5 prints recently, but we’ve come to realise that they just don’t stand up to any degree of handling. We’ve even tried spraying them – but they’re still getting scratched very easily (even just the movement of one on top of the other).

We’ve reached the conclusion that frame-mounded prints are ok – small & sprayed oned may be OK in an album that’s seperated by rice paper – but hand-held stuff seems to be about 100 times more delicate than conventional "lab" stuff.

And to make matters worse, this is on a printer that’s renowned for producing hardy prints.
CD
Colin D
Feb 14, 2006
Scott Glasgow wrote:
John Rampling wrote:
CMY is not really appropriate for professional work. Bite the bullet and get a CMYK or even six-ink printer.

John

"Colin D" wrote in message
I have run into a small problem with producing black/white prints from my inkjet printer, a Canon i9950 (same as i9900) when printing from scans of older family photographs.

The scans are converted to grayscale in photoshop so there is no suggestion of color shifts with the image, and when printed the results, while not *exactly* neutral gray, are pretty close, bearing in mind the printer is printing in three colors, but I have a client who considers that the slightest shift from absolute neutral is unacceptable. Short of going to a quad-black or equivalent printing system, I
consider the prints to be pretty good.

So, the question is, for those who do b/w prints from inkjets, how close to neutral is close enough, and has anyone run into this objection from a client, or even a family member?

Colin D.

OK, I’m confused. You say that the printer is "… printing in three colors," but when I look up the specs on that model it says that it’s an eight-color printer. So, which is it? Does the printer have a true black cartridge? If so, look in your printer setup dialog (it may be on an advanced tab or somewhere else not obvious) for the option to use only black. I have this on my Epson C84 (which is good, since I use it only for BW printing), and I would think that it would be available on your higher end printer ("Canon’s No.1 photo printer in digital photo printing" – from their Australian site Web page for the i9950). Look in your printed(??) or online documentation for information on monochrome or greyscale printing.
Cheers,
Scott

You’re quite right, it’s an 8-color printer, and I guess I really meant 5 colors used for b/w output, 2 magentas and cyans plus a yellow. There’s only one black cartridge, so the printer has to use color to generate the lighter tones smoothly, I guess.

This client even pointed out that the paper itself in the whites was too white. He apparently wanted a creamy paper to more or leess match the silver prints I was copying. I don’t think this job is going to fly.

Colin D.
C
CWatters
Feb 14, 2006
"Colin D" wrote in message
This client even pointed out that the paper itself in the whites was too white. He apparently wanted a creamy paper to more or leess match the silver prints I was copying. I don’t think this job is going to fly.

Perhaps you could use a program like Irfanview to batch tint them a bit yellow?
AE
Arthur Entlich
Feb 14, 2006
Does the Canon i9950 really print in CMY? I suspect otherwise.

Six color (CcMmYK) printers are no more likely, and maybe less so, to produce neutral results across the entire density range than a CMYK or even a CMY can. The drivers in a CcMmYK printer need to be even more complex to get an image without some color casting.

Art

John Rampling wrote:

CMY is not really appropriate for professional work. Bite the bullet and get a CMYK or even six-ink printer.

John

"Colin D" wrote in message

I have run into a small problem with producing black/white prints from my inkjet printer, a Canon i9950 (same as i9900) when printing from scans of older family photographs.

The scans are converted to grayscale in photoshop so there is no suggestion of color shifts with the image, and when printed the results, while not *exactly* neutral gray, are pretty close, bearing in mind the printer is printing in three colors, but I have a client who considers that the slightest shift from absolute neutral is unacceptable.
Short of going to a quad-black or equivalent printing system, I consider the prints to be pretty good.

So, the question is, for those who do b/w prints from inkjets, how close to neutral is close enough, and has anyone run into this objection from a client, or even a family member?

Colin D.

AE
Arthur Entlich
Feb 14, 2006
A bigger problem may be the fugitive nature of Canon inks.

I don’t know what he is paying for the prints and what he plans to do with them in terms of display or storage, but if he is that concerned with color cast, the problem is that not only will these images fade, but they will more than likely not fade evenly and therefore the cast may get worse over time.

If the job can justify it, you might want to consider buying something like a C88 or even an Epson Picturemate (4 x 6" maximum size output) which both use Durabrite inks which are rated for about 100 years in under glass display.

Although they probably will not produce quite the same graduated tonal range, I believe both can be set to black only printing which will give dead neutral results, and very high permanence (the black ink is probably the most stable of all). It will also cost you less per image to print.

Art

Colin D wrote:

C J Southern wrote:

You’re in NZ aren’t you? (me too)

Anything I can print for you on my Epson 7800 (legendary for B & W), and send to you?

Cheers,

Colin

Thanks for that offer, CJ, but the job, if it goes ahead, will involve some hundreds of prints at 6×4, from a mixed bag of 127, 120, 116, and other odd-ball size original in varying degrees of decay, all resized to 6×4 at 300 dpi. If the test runs dont’ satisfy this guy, I won’t be doing the rest of the scans.

Colin D.
AE
Arthur Entlich
Feb 14, 2006
May I ask which printer, which inks, which paper?

Art

C J Southern wrote:

"Colin D" wrote in message

Thanks for that offer, CJ, but the job, if it goes ahead, will involve some hundreds of prints at 6×4, from a mixed bag of 127, 120, 116, and other odd-ball size original in varying degrees of decay, all resized to 6×4 at 300 dpi. If the test runs dont’ satisfy this guy, I won’t be doing the rest of the scans.

No worries.

Just a word of caution if I may – I’ve been doing a few 6 * 4 and 7.5 * 5 prints recently, but we’ve come to realise that they just don’t stand up to any degree of handling. We’ve even tried spraying them – but they’re still getting scratched very easily (even just the movement of one on top of the other).

We’ve reached the conclusion that frame-mounded prints are ok – small & sprayed oned may be OK in an album that’s seperated by rice paper – but hand-held stuff seems to be about 100 times more delicate than conventional "lab" stuff.

And to make matters worse, this is on a printer that’s renowned for producing hardy prints.

AE
Arthur Entlich
Feb 14, 2006
Couple of things:

1) you probably don’t have the correct equipment for this client, I’d consider making him someone elses headache 😉

2) You could "print" the creme color. He obviously doesn’t really want neutral images, he wants reproductions of an old looking B&W print, which usually will not be neutral. Cream paper is not neutral, it’s cream. The only way to accomplish that is to either scan and keep the cream color in the whites and have them print using the colored inks, or switch to a black only printing and use a cream biased paper.

I bet the blacks aren’t neutral black either. It is probably a warm toned B&W paper.

Art

Colin D wrote:

Scott Glasgow wrote:

John Rampling wrote:

CMY is not really appropriate for professional work. Bite the bullet and get a CMYK or even six-ink printer.

John

"Colin D" wrote in message

I have run into a small problem with producing black/white prints from my inkjet printer, a Canon i9950 (same as i9900) when printing from scans of older family photographs.

The scans are converted to grayscale in photoshop so there is no suggestion of color shifts with the image, and when printed the results, while not *exactly* neutral gray, are pretty close, bearing in mind the printer is printing in three colors, but I have a client who considers that the slightest shift from absolute neutral is unacceptable. Short of going to a quad-black or equivalent printing system, I
consider the prints to be pretty good.

So, the question is, for those who do b/w prints from inkjets, how close to neutral is close enough, and has anyone run into this objection from a client, or even a family member?

Colin D.

OK, I’m confused. You say that the printer is "… printing in three colors," but when I look up the specs on that model it says that it’s an eight-color printer. So, which is it? Does the printer have a true black cartridge? If so, look in your printer setup dialog (it may be on an advanced tab or somewhere else not obvious) for the option to use only black. I have this on my Epson C84 (which is good, since I use it only for BW printing), and I would think that it would be available on your higher end printer ("Canon’s No.1 photo printer in digital photo printing" – from their Australian site Web page for the i9950). Look in your printed(??) or online documentation for information on monochrome or greyscale printing.
Cheers,
Scott

You’re quite right, it’s an 8-color printer, and I guess I really meant 5 colors used for b/w output, 2 magentas and cyans plus a yellow. There’s only one black cartridge, so the printer has to use color to generate the lighter tones smoothly, I guess.

This client even pointed out that the paper itself in the whites was too white. He apparently wanted a creamy paper to more or leess match the silver prints I was copying. I don’t think this job is going to fly.
Colin D.
I
Infinitech
Feb 14, 2006
Colin D wrote:
I have run into a small problem with producing black/white prints from my inkjet printer, a Canon i9950 (same as i9900) when printing from scans of older family photographs.

The scans are converted to grayscale in photoshop so there is no suggestion of color shifts with the image, and when printed the results, while not *exactly* neutral gray, are pretty close, bearing in mind the printer is printing in three colors, but I have a client who considers that the slightest shift from absolute neutral is unacceptable.

Short of going to a quad-black or equivalent printing system, I consider the prints to be pretty good.

So, the question is, for those who do b/w prints from inkjets, how close to neutral is close enough, and has anyone run into this objection from a client, or even a family member?

Colin D.

I have a canon too (s900) ans I’ve never been able to produce nice BW prints while color prints are pretty nice
but I’ve read recently a book from Harald Johnson, (
which I recommend it’s called "Digital printing" I think, in english) and inside there was a solution for replacing original cardridges by special high end carbon-based cardridges from a company specialized in fine arts supplies,
but what the fuck ****** I can’t remember their name.

Maybe someone has tried them, I’d like to read about it too..


Infinitech
I
Infinitech
Feb 14, 2006
but what the fuck ****** I can’t remember their name.
Damned, LYSON!!!
http://www.lyson.com/
Does anyone uses this?

Infinitech
CJ
C J Southern
Feb 14, 2006
"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message

May I ask which printer, which inks, which paper?

Epson 7800 – K3 Inks – Kodak Rapid dry 260gsm Gloss & 190gsm Satin.

Although to be fair, I now understand that this is an issue with any kind of inkjet printing (the Epson ink is supposed to be especially resiliant).

At the end of the day, it’s not a problem with the ink coming off – it’s a problem with the ink that’s already on the paper getting marked, which when you think about it, is pretty "exposed" to damage.

Why do you ask?

Colin
CD
Colin D
Feb 15, 2006
Infinitech wrote:
but what the fuck ****** I can’t remember their name.
Damned, LYSON!!!
http://www.lyson.com/
Does anyone uses this?

Infinitech

Yep, Lyson (English), and others, whose name *I* can’t remember now! It’s catching!

You really need a separate printer to do this properly, as the various shades of gray occupy the color cartridge slots in the printer, and Lyson at least supply software that separates the b/w tones and drives the appropriate color channel in the printer. I did try this long ago with an Epson 740 printer, but could never get it to work properly, and ran out of the expensive ink, so abandoned it.

I should say that I think the output of the i9950 gives excellent b/w prints, and I have exhibited several. I don’t know if cream or warm paper is available for inkjets, but I’m going to find out. Could be good for portraits etc.

Colin D.
PF
Paul Furman
Feb 15, 2006
Colin D wrote:

Infinitech wrote:

but what the fuck ****** I can’t remember their name.

Damned, LYSON!!!
http://www.lyson.com/
Does anyone uses this?

Infinitech

Yep, Lyson (English), and others, whose name *I* can’t remember now! It’s catching!

You really need a separate printer to do this properly, as the various shades of gray occupy the color cartridge slots in the printer, and Lyson at least supply software that separates the b/w tones and drives the appropriate color channel in the printer. I did try this long ago with an Epson 740 printer, but could never get it to work properly, and ran out of the expensive ink, so abandoned it.

I should say that I think the output of the i9950 gives excellent b/w prints, and I have exhibited several. I don’t know if cream or warm paper is available for inkjets, but I’m going to find out. Could be good for portraits etc.

Another trick to use photoshop to do a duotone or tri.. using a yellowish highlight and a neutral or blueish shadow color to sort of simulate the elusive look of silver prints.
AE
Arthur Entlich
Feb 15, 2006
Hi Colin,

I ask because the ink set and paper matter.

For instance, most of Kodak’s consumer grade papers were using a swellable polymer surfaced paper. This paper is not recommended for pigment inks such as the K3 series. Those Kodak papers are designed for dye inks. The swellable polymer surface are helpful in reducing the fugitive nature of dye inks by making them less likely to fade by locking the dye into the surface structure of the paper. Pigment inks do not integrate well with swellable Polymer papers, and swellable polymer papers also are never waterproof. They are vulnerable to humidity, spills, fingerprints and other environmental considerations. Basically, they do not dry properly with Ultrachrome inks, which in themselves are very slow drying due ot the glycol levels. Further the nature of swellable polymers is that even when dry they are relatively soft.

However, it would appear the Kodak papers you are using use differing technology, as they are rapid dry, so likely they are microporous.

In general, microporous inks are more appropriate for pigment inks. These are "instant dry" types. They have a porous ceramic surface under which is another clay (kaolin) surface which locks the ink into place and reduces dot gain. These papers can literally be rinsed one truly dry and the inks remain set. Even dye inks which are water soluble will remain set. The surface is harder, and remains dry after printing, and although dye inks may fade more quickly with it, pigment inks are not at great risk to fading.

It is true that pigment inks tend to set closer to the surface, and therefore can be more vulnerable to scuffing and such. Some people use overcoats to help keep the ink more protected. Do you find that most papers you have used have equal vulnerability to scuffs and scrapes?

I admit, I still like what silver photographs look like and how well they tend to behave, especially with B&W images. But I suspect some paper and ink combos hold up better than others.

Art
C J Southern wrote:

"Arthur Entlich" wrote in message

May I ask which printer, which inks, which paper?

Epson 7800 – K3 Inks – Kodak Rapid dry 260gsm Gloss & 190gsm Satin.
Although to be fair, I now understand that this is an issue with any kind of inkjet printing (the Epson ink is supposed to be especially resiliant).
At the end of the day, it’s not a problem with the ink coming off – it’s a problem with the ink that’s already on the paper getting marked, which when you think about it, is pretty "exposed" to damage.
Why do you ask?

Colin

SG
Scott Glasgow
Feb 15, 2006
Arthur Entlich wrote:
Hi Colin,

I ask because the ink set and paper matter.

For instance, most of Kodak’s consumer grade papers were using a swellable polymer surfaced paper. This paper is not recommended for pigment inks such as the K3 series. Those Kodak papers are designed for dye inks. The swellable polymer surface are helpful in reducing the fugitive nature of dye inks by making them less likely to fade by locking the dye into the surface structure of the paper. Pigment inks do not integrate well with swellable Polymer papers, and swellable polymer papers also are never waterproof. They are vulnerable to humidity, spills, fingerprints and other environmental considerations. Basically, they do not dry properly with Ultrachrome inks, which in themselves are very slow drying due ot the glycol levels. Further the nature of swellable polymers is that even when dry they are relatively soft.

However, it would appear the Kodak papers you are using use differing technology, as they are rapid dry, so likely they are microporous.
In general, microporous inks are more appropriate for pigment inks. These are "instant dry" types. They have a porous ceramic surface under which is another clay (kaolin) surface which locks the ink into place and reduces dot gain. These papers can literally be rinsed one truly dry and the inks remain set. Even dye inks which are water soluble will remain set. The surface is harder, and remains dry after printing, and although dye inks may fade more quickly with it, pigment inks are not at great risk to fading.

It is true that pigment inks tend to set closer to the surface, and therefore can be more vulnerable to scuffing and such. Some people use overcoats to help keep the ink more protected. Do you find that most papers you have used have equal vulnerability to scuffs and scrapes?
I admit, I still like what silver photographs look like and how well they tend to behave, especially with B&W images. But I suspect some paper and ink combos hold up better than others.

Art
C J Southern wrote:


<<::SNIP::>>

Thanks for the information, Art. I wasn’t aware of the nature of Kodak paper and tried using some I had gotten on sale with Epson DuraBrite inks, with terrible results. They came out looking like a craquelure effect had been applied to the image, especially in the black and darker areas of the print. After experimenting with plain 94 bright 24 lb. bond and finding that this did not occur, I went out and got Epson’s DuraBrite Glossy paper and got great prints. Although I was happy to have solved the problem, I was curious as to why two apparently similar "glossy" papers had such drastically different responses to the ink. Now I know. Thanks again.

BTW, is there somewhere on the Web I can go to find information about inks and proprietary papers such as you have included here, or is this a summary of information that you have picked up here and there over time? I have Googled "paper and ink characteristics," "inkjet paper characteristics," and others, and have found some not too bad general information, but little manufacturer-specific information such as given above other than sales fluff.

Cheers,
Scott
PF
Paul Furman
Feb 15, 2006
Scott Glasgow wrote:

BTW, is there somewhere on the Web I can go to find
information about inks and proprietary papers such as
you have included here

http://bermangraphics.com/press/wilhelm.htm
SG
Scott Glasgow
Feb 15, 2006
Paul Furman wrote:
Scott Glasgow wrote:

BTW, is there somewhere on the Web I can go to find
information about inks and proprietary papers such as
you have included here

http://bermangraphics.com/press/wilhelm.htm

Excellent! Just what I was looking for; very thorough explanation of the principles involved. Thank you, Paul!

Net Snippets gets this one for sure… 😉

Cheers,
Scott
CD
Colin D
Feb 15, 2006
Colin D wrote:
I have run into a small problem with producing black/white prints from my inkjet printer, a Canon i9950 (same as i9900) when printing from scans of older family photographs.

The scans are converted to grayscale in photoshop so there is no suggestion of color shifts with the image, and when printed the results, while not *exactly* neutral gray, are pretty close, bearing in mind the printer is printing in three colors, but I have a client who considers that the slightest shift from absolute neutral is unacceptable.
Short of going to a quad-black or equivalent printing system, I consider the prints to be pretty good.

So, the question is, for those who do b/w prints from inkjets, how close to neutral is close enough, and has anyone run into this objection from a client, or even a family member?

Colin D.

OK, panic’s off, people. Many thanks to you all for suggestions, tech info etc, but she isn’t gonna fly. I talked the guy into trying someone else, who may have proper b/w printing capability – but it’s now his problem. Gotta say I’m relieved, I didn’t fancy him accepting my prints, and then having him complain after the job was done.

FWIW, Canon say that their dye inks are good for 25 – 30 years, with the right care of the prints, and practically, I think that’s good enough. My daughter was looking through her boxes of 6×4’s while we were in Hong Kong recently, and the degradation of some of the images, particularly those on Agfa paper, was horrifying. Whites gone dirty yellow, colors faded, variable fading due to poor processing or washing, etc. The only prints that were still good – and most of these were no more than 14 years old, which was when she moved to HK – were Fuji, and the Crystal Archive prints looked as fresh as yesterday.

Since there’s no washing problems or chemical contamination from inkjet printers, and given today’s dyes, it’s a good bet that IJ prints will outlast chemical prints, IMHO.

Thanks for the discussion.

Colin D.
AE
Arthur Entlich
Feb 16, 2006
Hi Scott,

Most manufacturers will tell you is asked. The two paper types I mention are the basic technologies in use. Truth be known, it is very difficult to produce a paper that works for all inks and inkjet printers.

HP color inkjet printers, for instance, tend to work best with swellable polymer inks while most Canon and Epson do best with Microporous papers.

There are some other technologies in the works that integrate the inkjet special technologies throughout the paper fibre rather than just being on the surface.

There are probably some web resources for determining best papers and ink combinations, as determined by private users, but I don’t know of any off the top of my head. Epson, of course, offers charts showing which papers of their own brand work best with which inks and printers.

Some manufacturer’s will give suggestions or offer free or inexpensive sample packages of their papers for testing purposes.

As a general rule, Epson and Canon inks (both dye and pigment) do best with microporous or "rapid dry" type papers. However, dye inks will be less permanent with microporous papers so if the results are OK with swellable polymer papers, that is an advantage to fade resistance.

HP new inks, particularly (the Vivera) are specifically designed for their swellable polymer papers and will not give the fade resistance advertised without them.

I would think many of the more established 3rd party ink manufacturers will give paper suggestions and even provide free profiles.

Art

Scott Glasgow wrote:

Arthur Entlich wrote:

Hi Colin,

I ask because the ink set and paper matter.

For instance, most of Kodak’s consumer grade papers were using a swellable polymer surfaced paper. This paper is not recommended for pigment inks such as the K3 series. Those Kodak papers are designed for dye inks. The swellable polymer surface are helpful in reducing the fugitive nature of dye inks by making them less likely to fade by locking the dye into the surface structure of the paper. Pigment inks do not integrate well with swellable Polymer papers, and swellable polymer papers also are never waterproof. They are vulnerable to humidity, spills, fingerprints and other environmental considerations. Basically, they do not dry properly with Ultrachrome inks, which in themselves are very slow drying due ot the glycol levels. Further the nature of swellable polymers is that even when dry they are relatively soft.

However, it would appear the Kodak papers you are using use differing technology, as they are rapid dry, so likely they are microporous.
In general, microporous inks are more appropriate for pigment inks. These are "instant dry" types. They have a porous ceramic surface under which is another clay (kaolin) surface which locks the ink into place and reduces dot gain. These papers can literally be rinsed one truly dry and the inks remain set. Even dye inks which are water soluble will remain set. The surface is harder, and remains dry after printing, and although dye inks may fade more quickly with it, pigment inks are not at great risk to fading.

It is true that pigment inks tend to set closer to the surface, and therefore can be more vulnerable to scuffing and such. Some people use overcoats to help keep the ink more protected. Do you find that most papers you have used have equal vulnerability to scuffs and scrapes?
I admit, I still like what silver photographs look like and how well they tend to behave, especially with B&W images. But I suspect some paper and ink combos hold up better than others.

Art
C J Southern wrote:

AE
Arthur Entlich
Feb 16, 2006
The IMHO is important in this posting. 😉

Agfa, as I have posted here, had some of the worst wet lab photo print papers. Kodak’s standard papers are not even as good as the Fuji Crystal Archive papers. Kodak does make some more stable photo print papers, but they aren’t in as common use as the Fuji products.

Some of Canon’s inks (and others) depending upon the paper used, provide quite poor permanence, especially if displayed in indoor lighting without glass. I would think 25-30 years is being very optimistic.

Art

Colin D wrote:

Colin D wrote:

I have run into a small problem with producing black/white prints from my inkjet printer, a Canon i9950 (same as i9900) when printing from scans of older family photographs.

The scans are converted to grayscale in photoshop so there is no suggestion of color shifts with the image, and when printed the results, while not *exactly* neutral gray, are pretty close, bearing in mind the printer is printing in three colors, but I have a client who considers that the slightest shift from absolute neutral is unacceptable.
Short of going to a quad-black or equivalent printing system, I consider the prints to be pretty good.

So, the question is, for those who do b/w prints from inkjets, how close to neutral is close enough, and has anyone run into this objection from a client, or even a family member?

Colin D.

OK, panic’s off, people. Many thanks to you all for suggestions, tech info etc, but she isn’t gonna fly. I talked the guy into trying someone else, who may have proper b/w printing capability – but it’s now his problem. Gotta say I’m relieved, I didn’t fancy him accepting my prints, and then having him complain after the job was done.
FWIW, Canon say that their dye inks are good for 25 – 30 years, with the right care of the prints, and practically, I think that’s good enough. My daughter was looking through her boxes of 6×4’s while we were in Hong Kong recently, and the degradation of some of the images, particularly those on Agfa paper, was horrifying. Whites gone dirty yellow, colors faded, variable fading due to poor processing or washing, etc. The only prints that were still good – and most of these were no more than 14 years old, which was when she moved to HK – were Fuji, and the Crystal Archive prints looked as fresh as yesterday.

Since there’s no washing problems or chemical contamination from inkjet printers, and given today’s dyes, it’s a good bet that IJ prints will outlast chemical prints, IMHO.

Thanks for the discussion.

Colin D.
I
info
Feb 16, 2006
On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 09:39:04 GMT, Arthur Entlich
wrote:

Hi Scott,

HP color inkjet printers, for instance, tend to work best with swellable polymer inks while most Canon and Epson do best with Microporous papers.

Is there any list out there which tells which paper is which? That article that was posted is rather old, and the instructions on it might not work so well nowadays. I’m wondering what the Epson Ultra Premium Glossy Photo Paper (which is difficult to find locally) is. It’s ‘instant-dry’ like microporous, but I think it’s swellable. I could be wrong though.

There are probably some web resources for determining best papers and ink combinations, as determined by private users, but I don’t know of any off the top of my head. Epson, of course, offers charts showing which papers of their own brand work best with which inks and printers.

I’ve always thought that brand name photo papers aren’t expensive enough to warrant going to another brand unless you can get a very good deal on it or if the other brand is rated better than the printer brand paper. I always use Epson and HP paper for anything I want to save or that I want to make a nice original for photocopies of (i.e. brochures or flyers), but if I can get Office Depot Professional Gloss Photo Paper 100 packs for buy-one-get-one, I use that for stuff for the fridge, etc. I think it’s microporous, but am not sure on that either. The Epson Ultra-Premium paper is /really/ nice with my R340 though, much, much better than the OD one. I’ve never had good results with Kodak paper or OfficeMax brand, I haven’t tried the Staples one.



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