Regarding WebTv, Image Magick, and certain uneducated PC snobs

On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 23:01:22 -0500, (Post
Toasties) scribbled:

WebTV should never have been let outside the
confines of their own private newsgroups.
Toddle along now, Junior.

He’s not using a program, he can’t use
programs, he’s accessing the net with a toy.

Yep, it’s a toy, for idiots.

WebTV is a toy people who are afraid of
computers connect to their television sets and
browse the web.

He can’t run programs. He’s using WebTV, a
glorified cable box, to access the net.

—————————–

I realize the above comments were made by an ignorant troll, but for the open-minded folks with a brain who might appreciate some insight from one experienced with WebTv, Image Magick, computers, and Photoshop, I am compelled to address the subject.

Didn’t you storm off in a tantrum crying that you’d never return?

WebTV, now known as MSNTV, is a set-top appliance for surfing the internet using a dial-up connection and your TV. Among other things, it includes a newsgroup reader for accessing both Usenet groups and WebTv-only groups. WebTv uses a remote, very much like a TV remote, and

Yes, you’ve just accurately described a toy.

a wireless keyboard. This means you can browse the internet on your 50" set in the living room while comfortably sprawled on your couch across the room. This comfort factor is one reason of several why I choose to do my group reading from my WebTv rather than from my computer.

As if you’re capable of understanding a computer, or even own one. If you had one why didn’t you just do your own graphics work on that?

It sickens me that there are people out there who would discount anything I had to say or ridicule me simply because my header shows I’m posting from a Webtv. Being aware of this bias, I rarely come out of lurking to post, but tonight I’m adding my two cents.

You over value your opinion.

WebTv doesn’t have a harddrive, hence no ability to download or run programs of any sort. If you want to do anything – even something as simple as change text color in an email – you need to learn how to do it yourself without benefit of a program to do it for you. Because of this, a good lot of folks born & bred on WebTv have developed skills – like coding a webpage from scratch – that many pc-only people don’t have because they never needed to learn them.

OOoOoo basic HTML skills…. I’m impressed!

Working with images is as popular with WebTv users as with PC users. Image Magick is the on-line program most popular for that. Many WebTv’ers have mastered IM & the images they can output with it are very impressive given its limatations.

<snicker>

I have a computer and working in Photoshop has become my favorite hobby.

So then why did you ask people to do a very simple job for you?

Of course it can do far more than IM, but one works with the tools available to them – ’tis not right to get on a high-horse and put down others for doing the best they can with what they have available. Nor is it right to make assumptions based on someone’s posting addy. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and there’s more than one way to access Usenet groups.

So… you’re into torturing animals?

"Post Toasties" wrote in message

WebTV should never have been let outside the
confines of their own private newsgroups.
Toddle along now, Junior.

He’s not using a program, he can’t use
programs, he’s accessing the net with a toy.

Yep, it’s a toy, for idiots.

WebTV is a toy people who are afraid of
computers connect to their television sets and
browse the web.

He can’t run programs. He’s using WebTV, a
glorified cable box, to access the net.

—————————–

I realize the above comments were made by an ignorant troll, but for the open-minded folks with a brain who might appreciate some insight from one experienced with WebTv, Image Magick, computers, and Photoshop, I am compelled to address the subject.

WebTV, now known as MSNTV, is a set-top appliance for surfing the internet using a dial-up connection and your TV. Among other things, it includes a newsgroup reader for accessing both Usenet groups and WebTv-only groups. WebTv uses a remote, very much like a TV remote, and a wireless keyboard. This means you can browse the internet on your 50" set in the living room while comfortably sprawled on your couch across the room. This comfort factor is one reason of several why I choose to do my group reading from my WebTv rather than from my computer.
It sickens me that there are people out there who would discount anything I had to say or ridicule me simply because my header shows I’m posting from a Webtv. Being aware of this bias, I rarely come out of lurking to post, but tonight I’m adding my two cents.

WebTv doesn’t have a harddrive, hence no ability to download or run programs of any sort. If you want to do anything – even something as simple as change text color in an email – you need to learn how to do it yourself without benefit of a program to do it for you. Because of this, a good lot of folks born & bred on WebTv have developed skills – like coding a webpage from scratch – that many pc-only people don’t have because they never needed to learn them.

Working with images is as popular with WebTv users as with PC users. Image Magick is the on-line program most popular for that. Many WebTv’ers have mastered IM & the images they can output with it are very impressive given its limatations.

I have a computer and working in Photoshop has become my favorite hobby. Of course it can do far more than IM, but one works with the tools available to them – ’tis not right to get on a high-horse and put down others for doing the best they can with what they have available. Nor is it right to make assumptions based on someone’s posting addy. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and there’s more than one way to access Usenet groups.

Prof

All very good, etc.

BUT

Do remember this is a Photoshop Group, not an Imagemagick Group.

The moron who made the first posting was not asking for advice he was asking someone to do it for him.

When surprise, surprise, no-one replied, he then made another post to complain about being ignored.

What did he expect ??? Sweetness and Light ???

He then responded in an even more petulant way.

He deserves everything he got, and indeed should consider himself lucky that it stayed as moderate as it did.

Roy G

Post Toasties wrote:

WebTV should never have been let outside the
confines of their own private newsgroups.
Toddle along now, Junior.

He’s not using a program, he can’t use
programs, he’s accessing the net with a toy.

Yep, it’s a toy, for idiots.

WebTV is a toy people who are afraid of
computers connect to their television sets and
browse the web.

He can’t run programs. He’s using WebTV, a
glorified cable box, to access the net.

—————————–

I realize the above comments were made by an ignorant troll, but for the open-minded folks with a brain who might appreciate some insight from one experienced with WebTv, Image Magick, computers, and Photoshop, I am compelled to address the subject.

WebTV, now known as MSNTV, is a set-top appliance for surfing the internet using a dial-up connection and your TV. Among other things, it includes a newsgroup reader for accessing both Usenet groups and WebTv-only groups. WebTv uses a remote, very much like a TV remote, and a wireless keyboard. This means you can browse the internet on your 50" set in the living room while comfortably sprawled on your couch across the room. This comfort factor is one reason of several why I choose to do my group reading from my WebTv rather than from my computer.

It sickens me that there are people out there who would discount anything I had to say or ridicule me simply because my header shows I’m posting from a Webtv. Being aware of this bias, I rarely come out of lurking to post, but tonight I’m adding my two cents.
WebTv doesn’t have a harddrive, hence no ability to download or run programs of any sort. If you want to do anything – even something as simple as change text color in an email – you need to learn how to do it yourself without benefit of a program to do it for you. Because of this, a good lot of folks born & bred on WebTv have developed skills – like coding a webpage from scratch – that many pc-only people don’t have because they never needed to learn them.

Working with images is as popular with WebTv users as with PC users. Image Magick is the on-line program most popular for that. Many WebTv’ers have mastered IM & the images they can output with it are very impressive given its limatations.

I have a computer and working in Photoshop has become my favorite hobby. Of course it can do far more than IM, but one works with the tools available to them – ’tis not right to get on a high-horse and put down others for doing the best they can with what they have available.
Nor is it right to make assumptions based on someone’s posting addy. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and there’s more than one way to access Usenet groups.

Prof

Whoosh.
That was the sound of you missing the point and it flying straight past you. Admittedly, a few small minded people launched into a diatribe about web-tv, but to most people it simply wasn’t an issue in Arthur Reilly’s post. Most people took exception to the fact that he expected people to do his work for him for free.
When he asked for that, he simply got ignored, and that’s where it would have ended if he’d been grown-up enough to let it lie, but he wasn’t and didn’t.
Instead he came back in again and felt the need to cry about it and have a go at everyone for having teh audacity to ignore him.
That’s when he got people’s heckles up.

Do remember this is a Photoshop Group,
not an Imagemagick Group.

Yes, of course. There are PS groups about though that are centered on actually working on other’s images, presumably so the poster can learn the technique the contributor used, but there are some folks who post images with no intention of learning, they just want this or that done for them. Even so,many still work on the image for their own reasons, not caring or expecting payment from the person who requested it.

The moron who made the first posting
was not asking for advice he was asking
someone to do it for him.

The OP here obviously posted in the wrong type of group but that doesn’t merit the responses he got.

He deserves everything he got, and
indeed should consider himself lucky that
it stayed as moderate as it did.

He wasn’t asking for someone to recreate the Sistine Chapel for him, he only wanted two dots! Geesh. Would it have been so hard to give him the dots but politely explain this is a group for discussing PS techniques, it’s not an imaging group, so go elsewhere for future requests?

Prof

Because of this, a good lot of folks born &
bred on WebTv have developed skills –
like coding a webpage from scratch – that
many pc-only people don’t have because
they never needed to learn them.

OOoOoo basic HTML skills…. I’m
impressed!

I made my entire website from scratch, on WebTv. How many pc-only people do you know who could do that without using FrontPage or some other canned page maker/editor?

If it makes you feel good knocking something you obviously have no personal experience with and don’t know a thing about it, then by all means, continue showing your ignorance by doing so..

Prof

On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 08:48:51 -0500, (Colliope .com)
scribbled:

Because of this, a good lot of folks born &
bred on WebTv have developed skills –
like coding a webpage from scratch – that
many pc-only people don’t have because
they never needed to learn them.

OOoOoo basic HTML skills…. I’m
impressed!

I made my entire website from scratch, on WebTv. How many pc-only people do you know who could do that without using FrontPage or some other canned page maker/editor?

I’ve coded every web page I’ve ever made over the last 10 years by hand in Notepad. Big whoop. I’m not impressed. It’s HTML for shit’s sake, I could teach a baboon to code HTML pages.

If it makes you feel good knocking something you obviously have no personal experience with and don’t know a thing about it, then by all means, continue showing your ignorance by doing so..

And you keep using your $200 toy while I keep laughing at you.

"Colliope .com" wrote in message

Do remember this is a Photoshop Group,
not an Imagemagick Group.

Yes, of course. There are PS groups about though that are centered on actually working on other’s images, presumably so the poster can learn the technique the contributor used, but there are some folks who post images with no intention of learning, they just want this or that done for them. Even so,many still work on the image for their own reasons, not caring or expecting payment from the person who requested it.

The moron who made the first posting
was not asking for advice he was asking
someone to do it for him.

The OP here obviously posted in the wrong type of group but that doesn’t merit the responses he got.

I think you should read the original posts.

You appear to be missing out those parts which do not suit your argument.

The OP did NOT get any resposes whatsoever to his original posting. No-one said ANYTHING to him.

He then provoked some responses by posting his complaint. As I said earlier, "What did he expect".

I replied –

You were not asking for help, you were asking for >>someone to do it for you.
That is quite a different situation.

You do not seem to be using Photoshop, but some >>other program, and I have
never heard of it, much less know how it works.

So it is hardly surprising you did not get a response from >>this Photoshop group.

The next, thing he is attempting to belittle me because I had never heard of his crappy non-program. He is Bloody lucky that I somehow managed to control my temper and only replied slightly sharply.

You are now doing the same thing, and I would suggest you go away and play with your toys before someone starts throwing the Sh-1-T. at you.

Roy G

On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 23:01:22 -0500, (Post Toasties)
found these unused words floating about:

WebTV, now known as MSNTV, is a set-top appliance for surfing the internet using a dial-up connection and your TV. Among other things, it includes a newsgroup reader for accessing both Usenet groups and WebTv-only groups. WebTv uses a remote, very much like a TV remote, and a wireless keyboard. This means you can browse the internet on your 50" set in the living room while comfortably sprawled on your couch across the room. This comfort factor is one reason of several why I choose to do my group reading from my WebTv rather than from my computer.

Which any PC’er or MAC’ie can do for far less than the cost of a basic MSNTV (as with you running two ‘systems’), let alone the ‘service’ fees! Note that MissieTV doesn’t disclose the fees on the sales site – it’s a GOTCHA !!!

Until I moved (not set up fully yet) I used a 108" screen for my games and some browsing, but used a recliner, not the couch! <G>

Though I rarely agree with the trolls, MSNTV is a toy, it’s been a toy, it will remain a toy – and more expensive than it needs to be!

For the price of a MissieBox, you can get a full computer and the cost to access the internet can be as little as 1/3rd of the MissieTV! What you save in under a year, from that alone, would pay for the output card/box to ‘watch’ on your TV, but of course it will still be at TV resolution.

An additional benefit would be that you could record your computer’s screen to external tape or DVD (if you have them). Teaching tool or capture of, well, whatever!

On the newer HD TV’s, many are coming with a DB-15 input for computers – so even that card/box will be obviated.

Though I rarely agree with the trolls, MSNTV is
a toy, it’s been a toy, it will remain a toy – and
more expensive than it needs to be!

Have you ever used it? WebTv was designed to provide an inexpensive, uncomplicated, space saving way of accessing the internet and email. It was never intended to be all the things a computer is, but it is not a "toy". I do not understand why so many pc people enjoy bashing it and its users.

For the price of a MissieBox, you can get a full
computer and the cost to access the internet
can be as little as 1/3rd of the MissieTV!

Oh, c’mon – where can you get a pc for less than $200? The subscription, though, for WebTv IS expensive at $24.95 a month. If you chose to use your own ISP rather than the WebTv network, it drops to, I think $10.95. Most of the folks, like myself, who have a WebTv and then get a PC pay $0 for WebTV. They instead pay $15.95 for MSNIA on the pc, which includes free WebTv subscription. It’s usually only after one wants to move on to a faster broadband connection that people drop MSNIA and thus give up the WebTv.

An additional benefit would be that you could
record your computer’s screen to external tape
or DVD (if you have them). Teaching tool or
capture of, well, whatever!

Using the WebTv, you can capture still frames off of tv programs, VCR, or videocamera. You cannot however, record moving video – just still frames.
Going the other way, you can, if you’ve made your connections correctly, record your web session to the VCR.

Anyways, I’m not trying to start a debate over WebTv vrs Computers; that’s like comparing apples to oranges. I use both, I enjoy both, and I know the pros & cons of both. I simply object to folks making negative assumptions about those who use WebTvs.

Prof

You appear to be missing out those parts which
do not suit your argument.

My only argument was that people went overboard when they did reply.

The OP did NOT get any resposes whatsoever
to his original posting. No-one said ANYTHING
to him.

If someone had politely repsonded to that, the second post & nasty responses wouldn’t have come about.

The next, thing he is attempting to belittle me
because I had never heard of his crappy
non-program. He is Bloody lucky that I
somehow managed to control my temper and
only replied slightly sharply.
You are now doing the same thing, and I would
suggest you go away and play with your toys
before someone starts throwing the Sh-1-T. at
you.

?? How was I belittling you? People were saying "what is this Image Magick? I’ve never heard of it" and "I don’t know what a WebTv is either"…. I was attempting to explain, for those who might actually want to know, what they are and at the same time counter the misguided comments re the above by troll-vod.

Prof

Bravo Post Toasties!

It’s about time some of the idiots on here got a bit of an education.

One moron even thought that your posting was from me even though the name and e-mail address was different.

I too enjoy laying back and surfing the web at home.

I bought my Web TV just before the MSN 2 came out and only paid $49.00 for it.

If that’s not a steal then I don’t know what is.

I think some of the responses you received along with one that I had gotten tells much about some photoshop users.

HERE’S ONE INTERESTING COMMENT

"Go I love yourself with a chainsaw."

Now words like that only show a total lack of class, education and upbringing.

Photoshop like many other Desktop applications are just software. I think some of these Photoshop users are trying to act like they’re the second coming of Christ because they use Photoshop.

They often call themselves Graphic Artists when what they have to say is so far removed from anything connected with the word "Artist".

I’ve been a computer programmer since the 70’s when most of these guys were either in diapers or waiting for their parents to meet.

In other words, I could have written the very code that Photoshop runs on.

Does that make me SPECIAL?

Not at all.

Unfortunately many of these guys apparently think they’re special.

I posted my original post on a couple of other discussion groups and not only did I get the graphics help I needed but many people even took the time to send me the very graphic I’d been looking for and were wonderfully friendly as well. I could have done it myself on a computer but was having trouble getting ImageMagick to get it just right and had wrongly assumed that a Photoshop user would have the answers.

It’s true that in my quick writing of my original post that I’d asked for the graphic as opposed to an explanation which is really what I’d been after. Even then, no one even provided a single HINT of how such a graphic could be done with Imagemagick but was told how worthless Imagemagick was compared to Photoshop. It’s since become clear that probably no one here knew anymore about how to accomplish the graphic task using Imagemagick anymore than I did.

The really funny part about all of this is the fact that the company I run employs at least two dozen graphic artists. Including branch offices throughout the world the number has to be in the hundreds.

Had someone been nice enough to have acted very differently than they did, I would have considered setting up an interview.

At my firm, many of the graphics artists make over $100.000 a year and the really talented ones who are involved with some of our more successful ad compaigns make more than triple that after bonuses are thrown in.

So I think we’ve given some of these closed minded, low class and uneducated people much more time then they deserve.

I’m sure there must be some really wonderful people on here that are very different from the posters to this topic.

Unfortunately, with those same people having not stood up to express anything differently just shows a form of agreement.

I won’t be responding to any negative replies on this topic because I learned a long time ago.

THERE’S NO POINT OF ARGUING WITH AN IDIOT.

On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 12:24:28 -0500, (Post Toasties)
scribbled:

You appear to be missing out those parts which
do not suit your argument.

My only argument was that people went overboard when they did reply.

Poor overly sensitive weebs. Are you ALL crybabies?

The OP did NOT get any resposes whatsoever
to his original posting. No-one said ANYTHING
to him.

If someone had politely repsonded to that, the second post & nasty responses wouldn’t have come about.

So everyone in the group should have replied with a polite ‘sorry, not doing your work for you’? or do we need a group spokesman to reply to all the idiots who ask for free graphics work? Why do you believe he deserved ANY reply at all?

The next, thing he is attempting to belittle me
because I had never heard of his crappy
non-program. He is Bloody lucky that I
somehow managed to control my temper and
only replied slightly sharply.
You are now doing the same thing, and I would
suggest you go away and play with your toys
before someone starts throwing the Sh-1-T. at
you.

?? How was I belittling you? People were saying "what is this Image Magick? I’ve never heard of it" and "I don’t know what a WebTv is either"…. I was attempting to explain, for those who might actually want to know, what they are and at the same time counter the misguided comments re the above by troll-vod.

Go back to playing with your toy, you’re out of your league on Usenet.

Colliope .com wrote:

Because of this, a good lot of folks born &
bred on WebTv have developed skills –
like coding a webpage from scratch – that
many pc-only people don’t have because
they never needed to learn them.

OOoOoo basic HTML skills…. I’m
impressed!

I made my entire website from scratch, on WebTv. How many pc-only people do you know who could do that without using FrontPage or some other canned page maker/editor?

Me for one. Notepad is all you need to compile a website. HTML is piss easy, and definitely the simplest of all the languages used for web work. What is it about *knowing basic html* that you think makes a webTV user somehow superior?
Try some scripting languages like ASP, PHP, Perl, and Javascript.

Colliope .com wrote:

Because of this, a good lot of folks born &
bred on WebTv have developed skills –
like coding a webpage from scratch – that
many pc-only people don’t have because
they never needed to learn them.

OOoOoo basic HTML skills…. I’m
impressed!

I made my entire website from scratch, on WebTv. How many pc-only people do you know who could do that without using FrontPage

FrontPage does not make websites.
It makes random collections of tags and code that sometimes, if you’re lucky, renders itself correctly.
FrontPage is a package used by people who are scared to try Geocities FFS.

Arthur Reilly wrote:

THERE’S NO POINT OF ARGUING WITH AN IDIOT.

Yes, you’re demonstrating this point very clearly.

Me for one. Notepad is all you need to compile
a website. HTML is piss easy, and definitely the
simplest of all the languages used for web
work.

Right!

What is it about *knowing basic html* that you
think makes a webTV user somehow superior?

That’s not what I said. I said that because WebTv’ers have no choice but to learn they often know more about page coding than your average pc user, not because pc users are "inferior", but because pc users have programs at their disposal to do the work for them – they don’t ever need to learn to do things from scratch unless they want to.

On Webtv, if one wants to do something as simple as change the text color of their email, they need to learn basic html to do that. Once they get started – out of neccessity – they continue out of fun, and often move on to putting their growing knowlege to work on a webpage. PC users who can simply click on font color in their email program to change it have no reason to get started with HTML unless they want to, and since they have a PC, if they do decide they want to make a page, the first thing they’re going to do is look for a program to help them along. That’s not saying PC users are inferior or stupid, but what it is saying is that WebTv users deserve more respect than they get. We are not a stupid bunch; we are resourceful out of necessity and that takes smarts..

Try some scripting languages like ASP, PHP,
Perl, and Javascript.

I’ve dabbled with PHP & Javascript. However, my pursuit of that hobby – that originated with needing to learn html on the WebTv – fell by the wayside when I got into digital photography and Photoshop.

Prof

On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 13:42:33 -0500, (Arthur Reilly)
scribbled:

Bravo Post Toasties!

Get a room.

It’s about time some of the idiots on here got a bit of an education.

An education about your toys? Who gives a shit?

One moron even thought that your posting was from me even though the name and e-mail address was different.

One weeb’s as worthless as the nest.

I too enjoy laying back and surfing the web at home.

Can’t handle a PC. huh?

I bought my Web TV just before the MSN 2 came out and only paid $49.00 for it.

So not only is it a toy it’s an antiquated obsolete toy. Bravo!

If that’s not a steal then I don’t know what is.

You don’t know what is. It’s obvious. You don’t need to make an issue of it.

I think some of the responses you received along with one that I had gotten tells much about some photoshop users.

HERE’S ONE INTERESTING COMMENT

"Go I love yourself with a chainsaw."

If you’re going to quote someone, Shitlips, get it right. I said, and I quote: "Kindly I love yourself anally with a chainsaw, thanks."

Now words like that only show a total lack of class, education and upbringing.

Didn’t you run off with your tail between your legs claiming you’d never return?

Message-ID:
"This will be my last posting on here."

Why yes, you did.

Photoshop like many other Desktop applications are just software. I think some of these Photoshop users are trying to act like they’re the second coming of Christ because they use Photoshop.

Actually they’re acting like professionals who had an idiot jump in and ask for free work. How often do you ask your doctor for a free checkup? When was the last time you got gas and exepected it to be free? (providing you’re old enough to have a driver’s license.)

They often call themselves Graphic Artists when what they have to say is so far removed from anything connected with the word "Artist".

You can’t discern the difference between words and deeds?

I’ve been a computer programmer since the 70’s when most of these guys were either in diapers or waiting for their parents to meet.

Just stop lying.

In other words, I could have written the very code that Photoshop runs on.

Please, I’m going to hurt myself laughing.

Does that make me SPECIAL?

Not at all.

Hey! You got something right!

Unfortunately many of these guys apparently think they’re special.

I am special.

I posted my original post on a couple of other discussion groups and not only did I get the graphics help I needed but many people even took the time to send me the very graphic I’d been looking for and were wonderfully friendly as well. I could have done it myself on a computer but was having trouble getting ImageMagick to get it just right and had wrongly assumed that a Photoshop user would have the answers.

You wrongly assumed people would do it for free for a newbie.

It’s true that in my quick writing of my original post that I’d asked for the graphic as opposed to an explanation which is really what I’d been after. Even then, no one even provided a single HINT of how such a graphic could be done with Imagemagick but was told how worthless Imagemagick was compared to Photoshop. It’s since become clear that probably no one here knew anymore about how to accomplish the graphic task using Imagemagick anymore than I did.

Probably because no one here after spending $600 for Photoshop is going to bother to use some crapware program. Hey, what’s the proper timing for a 1968 Toronado with the California 455 V8? What? WHY don’t you KNOW?!

The really funny part about all of this is the fact that the company I run employs at least two dozen graphic artists. Including branch offices throughout the world the number has to be in the hundreds.

The company you run has graphic artists and yet you felt the need to post your request to multiple groups? Damn, man, STOP lying.

Had someone been nice enough to have acted very differently than they did, I would have considered setting up an interview.

You’re just so full of shit. An interview for making two colored squares?

At my firm, many of the graphics artists make over $100.000 a year and the really talented ones who are involved with some of our more successful ad compaigns make more than triple that after bonuses are thrown in.

Anyone got a shovel? The bullshit’s getting knee deep around here.

So I think we’ve given some of these closed minded, low class and uneducated people much more time then they deserve.

So leave, no one is making you read the group. Hell, you said you were leaving and never coming back.

I’m sure there must be some really wonderful people on here that are very different from the posters to this topic.

Unfortunately, with those same people having not stood up to express anything differently just shows a form of agreement.

So everyone’s bad because they didn’t leap to some moron’s defense?

I won’t be responding to any negative replies on this topic because I learned a long time ago.

That’s why you’re responding, right. You can’t even lie with any skill.

THERE’S NO POINT OF ARGUING WITH AN IDIOT.

But it’s fun to taunt one.

Post Toasties wrote:

Me for one. Notepad is all you need to compile
a website. HTML is piss easy, and definitely the
simplest of all the languages used for web
work.

Right!

You imply sarcasm or disbelief.
Pray tell, which markup language is simpler than HTML?
It’s the base standard for internet documents. It literally doesn’t get any simpler unless your server is just delivering TXT documents. But then that isn’t actually *markup*. It’s just displaying the contents of a text document.

What is it about *knowing basic html* that you
think makes a webTV user somehow superior?

That’s not what I said. I said that because WebTv’ers have no choice but to learn they often know more about page coding than your average pc user, not because pc users are "inferior", but because pc users have programs at their disposal to do the work for them – they don’t ever need to learn to do things from scratch unless they want to.

Web TV users can use online site-building tools like those found at Geocities and other locations if they want a wysiwig environment. Just the same as they can use online graphics editing tools like ImageMagick.

On Webtv, if one wants to do something as simple as change the text color of their email, they need to learn basic html to do that. Once they get started – out of neccessity – they continue out of fun, and often move on to putting their growing knowlege to work on a webpage.

Why? Can a webTV user not use Hotmail or Yahoo mail?

PC users who can simply click on font color in their email program to change it have no reason to get started with HTML unless they want to,

Only if they have the software that allows them to do that. There are as many PC users who code all their websites using Notepad (a plain text editor which requires the user to have a full knowledge of the markp language they’re using).

and since they have a PC, if they do decide they want to make a page, the first thing they’re going to do is look for a program to help them along.

Thats reather a sweeping statement. I take exception at your generalisation.

That’s not saying PC users are inferior or stupid, but what it is saying is that WebTv users deserve more respect than they get.

I have no problem with WebTV users. You use whatever tool best suits your needs to access the net.
If it’s a set top TV box, then so be it. If it displays the pages that are on the internet and renders them correctly according to the W3C standards, then it does the job that it was intended for.
To knock it would be exactly the same as knocking people who access the net on a mobile phone, PDA, or one of those internet booths that you find in motorway service stations.
It is merely a tool, and if it performs the tasks you require of it, then it is a tool which works well. End of story.
My only gripe with WebTV users is that they seem to have a minor chip on their shoulders. An inferiority complex if you will. Perhaps it’s justified after seeing some of the derogatory posts in these threads, I really can’t say for sure. But it seems to me like WebTV users fall into the same category as Linux users. By that I mean, they constantly feel the need to justify their chosen IT tool, even though there really is no reason to do so.

On 2007-02-01 00:01:22 -0400, (Post Toasties) said:

WebTV should never have been let outside the
confines of their own private newsgroups.
Toddle along now, Junior.

He’s not using a program, he can’t use
programs, he’s accessing the net with a toy.

Yep, it’s a toy, for idiots.

WebTV is a toy people who are afraid of
computers connect to their television sets and
browse the web.

He can’t run programs. He’s using WebTV, a
glorified cable box, to access the net.

—————————–

I realize the above comments were made by an ignorant troll, but for the open-minded folks with a brain who might appreciate some insight from one experienced with WebTv, Image Magick, computers, and Photoshop, I am compelled to address the subject.

WebTV, now known as MSNTV, is a set-top appliance for surfing the internet using a dial-up connection and your TV. Among other things, it includes a newsgroup reader for accessing both Usenet groups and WebTv-only groups. WebTv uses a remote, very much like a TV remote, and a wireless keyboard. This means you can browse the internet on your 50" set in the living room while comfortably sprawled on your couch across the room. This comfort factor is one reason of several why I choose to do my group reading from my WebTv rather than from my computer.
It sickens me that there are people out there who would discount anything I had to say or ridicule me simply because my header shows I’m posting from a Webtv. Being aware of this bias, I rarely come out of lurking to post, but tonight I’m adding my two cents.

WebTv doesn’t have a harddrive, hence no ability to download or run programs of any sort. If you want to do anything – even something as simple as change text color in an email – you need to learn how to do it yourself without benefit of a program to do it for you. Because of this, a good lot of folks born & bred on WebTv have developed skills – like coding a webpage from scratch – that many pc-only people don’t have because they never needed to learn them.

Working with images is as popular with WebTv users as with PC users. Image Magick is the on-line program most popular for that. Many WebTv’ers have mastered IM & the images they can output with it are very impressive given its limatations.

I have a computer and working in Photoshop has become my favorite hobby. Of course it can do far more than IM, but one works with the tools available to them – ’tis not right to get on a high-horse and put down others for doing the best they can with what they have available. Nor is it right to make assumptions based on someone’s posting addy. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and there’s more than one way to access Usenet groups.

Prof

Web TV is not a computer hooked to the internet. It’s a way to do a few basic things on the internet with a TV. That’s it. In about 5 years most small handheld devices will surpase what web TV can offer.

If you like to see a web site on a TV you can easily set up a secondary or even your primary monitor to an LCD TV. I’d go as far to boldly say that you have no idea on how to do this… and that’s because your a novice at computers at best. There are no professional web designers working with Web TV. there are no video editors working with web TV. NO musicians. No programmers. No one that had any experience whatsoever with digital media would buy into such a useless tool. Please stop wondering about this and classify yourself a newbie at technology plain and simple.

As to your comment about html coding, a lot of us started in the early 90’s coding with notepad and ising bitmap images, but once professional programs like dreamweaver and go live surfaces…why bother? We can always look or hack the code the software builds if we don’t like it. You’re talking about HTML code. The most basic code on a computer next to "basic code" in the 90’s.

Keep using Web TV but don’t think it’s anything but a joytoy with little experience required. I’d go so far as to say my Home theater set has as much of a learning curve.

—
Welcome to Papa Joe’s

Right!

You imply sarcasm or disbelief.

Not all. I was agreeing with you. But I understand the lack of tone in writing makes it hard to construe intended meaning sometimes. I should have made it clearer that was an agreement, not sarcasm or disbelief.

There are as many PC users who code all their
websites using Notepad (a plain text editor
which requires the user to have a full
knowledge of the markp language they’re
using).

Maybe, but I don’t know any. By the way, WebTv doesn’t even have anything like Notepad, so PC’ers are already a step up. 😉

and since they have a PC, if they do decide
they want to make a page, the first thing they’re
going to do is look for a program to help them
along.

Thats reather a sweeping statement.

Maybe, but I believe it’s human nature. If PCer does not already have any experience with coding and decides they want to publish a webpage, they’re going to hunt around their computer for something that might do the job, then they’ll ask around for reccomendations on a program they should get/use. It’s a rare bird that’s going to ignore all the powerful tools at their disposal and decide to learn how to do it from scratch. Why bother, that’s why one gets a computer right? – to take the grunt work out of things.

My only gripe with WebTV users is that they
seem to have a minor chip on their shoulders.
An inferiority complex if you will. Perhaps it’s
justified after seeing some of the derogatory
posts in these threads, I really can’t say for
sure.

Thankyou. You seem to understand where I’m coming from. This is not the first pc-oriented group I’ve encountered WebTv-user bashing in. Its hard not to develop a chip when you feel you’re not taken seriously simply because of the machine you use.

But it seems to me like WebTV users fall into
the same category as Linux users. By that I
mean, they constantly feel the need to justify
their chosen IT tool, even though there really is
no reason to do so.

If misguided attitudes weren’t so frequently encountered, there’d be no reason to defend ones’ choice. It’s a viscious circle.

Prof

Web TV is not a computer hooked to the
internet. It’s a way to do a few basic things on
the internet with a TV. That’s it.

Yeah, we’ve already covered that.

If you like to see a web site on a TV you can
easily set up a secondary or even your primary
monitor to an LCD TV. I’d go as far to boldly
say that you have no idea on how to do this…

You’re right, I do not know how to do that.

and that’s because your a novice at computers
at best.

No, it’s because I have no need nor desire to do so. I already have a WebTv remember? However, I do know a thing or two about hooking up electronics – it’s just a logical flow of ins & outs. If I wanted to do it, it wouldn’t be that hard.

There are no professional web designers
working with Web TV. there are no video
editors working with web TV. NO musicians. No
programmers. No one that had any experience
whatsoever with digital media would buy into
such a useless tool.

Of course there aren’t.

Please stop wondering about this and classify
yourself a newbie at technology plain and
simple.

Uh, pardon me but your assumptions are showing.

Keep using Web TV but don’t think it’s anything
but a joytoy with little experience required. I’d
go so far as to say my Home theater set has as
much of a learning curve.

You missed everything. WebTv doesn’t take any experience to use, there is little learning curve to it. It’s its very simplicity that necessitates the user learning to do for themselves – that’s where the larning curve comes in

Prof.

On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 15:26:53 -0500, (Post Toasties)
scribbled:

Me for one. Notepad is all you need to compile
a website. HTML is piss easy, and definitely the
simplest of all the languages used for web
work.

Right!

What is it about *knowing basic html* that you
think makes a webTV user somehow superior?

That’s not what I said. I said that because WebTv’ers have no choice but

You had a choice. You could have bought a computer instead of a toy.

to learn they often know more about page coding than your average pc user, not because pc users are "inferior", but because pc users have programs at their disposal to do the work for them – they don’t ever need to learn to do things from scratch unless they want to.
On Webtv, if one wants to do something as simple as change the text color of their email, they need to learn basic html to do that. Once

Wow, that’s tough. Goodness, learning a single HTML tag to change the font color. Whew, you must be exhausted!

they get started – out of neccessity – they continue out of fun, and often move on to putting their growing knowlege to work on a webpage. PC users who can simply click on font color in their email program to change it have no reason to get started with HTML unless they want to, and since they have a PC, if they do decide they want to make a page, the first thing they’re going to do is look for a program to help them

That’s the first thing they’re going to do? Really? And how did you come by this knowledge oh great Swami? Personally, when I wanted to make a web page I went and learned how to write HTML.

along. That’s not saying PC users are inferior or stupid, but what it is saying is that WebTv users deserve more respect than they get. We are not a stupid bunch; we are resourceful out of necessity and that takes smarts..

So if someone enters a marathon and then shoots themselves in the foot they deserve more respect than the guy who was smart enough NOT to shoot himself in the foot? Why do you think you deserve respect for buying a crippled, antiquated toy?

On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 19:55:21 -0400, Papa Joe <Sorry> scribbled:

Web TV is not a computer hooked to the internet. It’s a way to do a few basic things on the internet with a TV. That’s it. In about 5 years most small handheld devices will surpase what web TV can offer.

My phone already has. WebTV can’t play/store MP3s. WebTV can’t make phone calls. WebTV can’t fit in your pocket or work in the car/field. WebTV can’t download anything. WebTV can’t… It’s like a mantra.

On Fri, 02 Feb 2007 01:04:07 -0500, Voivod wrote:

So if someone enters a marathon and then shoots themselves in the foot they deserve more respect than the guy who was smart enough NOT to shoot himself in the foot? Why do you think you deserve respect for buying a crippled, antiquated toy?

There’s nothing wrong with being satisfied to use something that does what you feel you need to have done. For example, you seem quite happy to work with only half a wit.

—

Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

Post Toasties wrote:

Right!

You imply sarcasm or disbelief.

Not all. I was agreeing with you. But I understand the lack of tone in writing makes it hard to construe intended meaning sometimes. I should have made it clearer that was an agreement, not sarcasm or disbelief.

There are as many PC users who code all their
websites using Notepad (a plain text editor
which requires the user to have a full
knowledge of the markp language they’re
using).

Maybe, but I don’t know any. By the way, WebTv doesn’t even have anything like Notepad, so PC’ers are already a step up. 😉

Hardly.
Notepad is simply a text editor of the most basic type.
It offers no advantages at all when writing HTML. Just plain black text on a white background.
The user then needs to know how to save the work, change file extensions, and then FTP the files to a web server.
And you’ll find that the type of people who code in notepad, tend to FTP using a command prompt, so they don’t even use an FTP programme. All of that requires the same HTML skills that you advocate, plus several other signifigant skills that aren’t understood by webTV users.

and since they have a PC, if they do decide
they want to make a page, the first thing they’re
going to do is look for a program to help them
along.

Thats reather a sweeping statement.

Maybe, but I believe it’s human nature. If PCer does not already have any experience with coding and decides they want to publish a webpage, they’re going to hunt around their computer for something that might do the job, then they’ll ask around for reccomendations on a program they should get/use. It’s a rare bird that’s going to ignore all the powerful tools at their disposal and decide to learn how to do it from scratch. Why bother, that’s why one gets a computer right? – to take the grunt work out of things.

Not necessarily.
A lot of people get a computer, not to take th egrunt work away, but to get their hands dirty with the geek work.

On Fri, 02 Feb 2007 02:37:30 -0500, Tony Cooper
scribbled:

On Fri, 02 Feb 2007 01:04:07 -0500, Voivod wrote:

So if someone enters a marathon and then shoots themselves in the foot they deserve more respect than the guy who was smart enough NOT to shoot himself in the foot? Why do you think you deserve respect for buying a crippled, antiquated toy?

There’s nothing wrong with being satisfied to use something that does what you feel you need to have done. For example, you seem quite happy to work with only half a wit.

I only use what’s necessary for the group. It’s not like this place is any intellectual challenge…

On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 12:15:51 -0500, (Post Toasties)
found these unused words floating about:

Though I rarely agree with the trolls, MSNTV is
a toy, it’s been a toy, it will remain a toy – and
more expensive than it needs to be!

Have you ever used it?

Yes. being involved with ALL the Las Vegas Comdex Shows from the beginning to the end, I’ve seen, used and sometimes sold most ‘boxes’ or ‘systems’.

WebTv was designed to provide an inexpensive,
uncomplicated, space saving way of accessing the internet and email. It was never intended to be all the things a computer is, but it is not a "toy". I do not understand why so many pc people enjoy bashing it and its users.

Agreed, but that was when computers were in the $1,000+ range! Now it’s a dinosaur and overpriced for its contents.

From experience 2/3rds or more of the webbies fail to even observe NGs before posting – usually OT for the group.

For the price of a MissieBox, you can get a full
computer and the cost to access the internet
can be as little as 1/3rd of the MissieTV!

Oh, c’mon – where can you get a pc for less than $200?

Simple boxes are available for UNDER $200! ‘Simple’ as in they aren’t tricked out gamer’s machines with whizz-bang-boom sound and graphics cards or 2 GB of RAM. OTOH they will run taxes, bookkeeping, many (most?) games other than 3D reality, office programs, even PHOTOSHOP (through 7 – haven’t seen any CS on them yet)!

The subscription,
though, for WebTv IS expensive at $24.95 a month.

BAFR ! Just another MS ‘money grab’.

If you chose to use
your own ISP rather than the WebTv network, it drops to, I think $10.95.

Whee, pay an ISP and pay MissieTV … BOING!

Most of the folks, like myself, who have a WebTv and then get a PC pay $0 for WebTV. They instead pay $15.95 for MSNIA on the pc, which includes free WebTv subscription.

Still 50% more than a good ISP would charge!

It’s usually only after one wants to
move on to a faster broadband connection that people drop MSNIA and thus give up the WebTv.

An additional benefit would be that you could
record your computer’s screen to external tape
or DVD (if you have them). Teaching tool or
capture of, well, whatever!

Using the WebTv, you can capture still frames off of tv programs, VCR, or videocamera. You cannot however, record moving video – just still frames.

Once captured, then what can you do? No internal storage! sheesh …

Going the other way, you can, if you’ve made your connections correctly, record your web session to the VCR.

Anyways, I’m not trying to start a debate over WebTv vrs Computers; that’s like comparing apples to oranges. I use both, I enjoy both, and I know the pros & cons of both. I simply object to folks making negative assumptions about those who use WebTvs.

Prof

Not assumptions Prof, observed and published FACTS.
… and yes you did start a debate by defending a webie OT posting to the group as it did not concern PS, but another program. Why isn’t there a blog or NG for that ‘program’ where his/her/its query could have been answered – that is IF he’d headered the query with some hint of what he wanted! Not enough users, perhaps?

Kirk Splaat

By the way, WebTv doesn’t even have
anything like Notepad, so PC’ers are
already a step up. 😉

Notepad is simply a text editor of the most
basic type. It offers no advantages at all
when writing HTML. Just plain black text
on a white background.

Yes, thanks, I know what Notepad is.
WebTv doesn’t have programs, hence no notepad-like tool for writing and
saving, and no place to save it to anyway.
Hence you learn to work around that – you use email to write, practice &
save your codes, and/or you use a testbed. There’s a script for one designed by a former WebTver for WebTvers that allows you to paste your
code in and view the result, an save up to 3000 characters in it. I have
my own and use it regularly when I’m on the WebTv for temporarily holding text I want to paste elsewhere later. Since we can’t have more
then one window/screen open at a time, it’s a godsend.
When you progress to the point of wanting to build a website, you get yourself a hosting plan somewhere that includes a WebTv-friendly editor
for writing, saving, previewing….

The user then needs to know how to save
the work, change file extensions, and then
FTP the files to a web server.

No FTP either. No HD to store to and upload from. On WebTv the best you
can do is transload something that’s already on the internet.

And you’ll find that the type of people who
code in notepad, tend to FTP using a
command prompt, so they don’t even use
an FTP programme.

When I have alot of files I want to upload I use FTP – it’s fast enough
for me.

All of that requires the same HTML skills
that you advocate, plus several other
signifigant skills that aren’t understood by
webTV users.

Right. Not understood by WebTvers because they’re things that don’t apply to to them. Same goes the other way – there are things not understood by PC’ers because they’re things that don’t apply to them.

I’m not trying to beat a dead horse by responding again, just trying to make my point remain clear (it if ever was to begin with). Neither WebTv uses nor Pc users are stupid/inferior as a group. The different tools at their disposal means different approaches to acheive
the same thing. For WebTvers, that often means taking the longer, harder
route & employing work-arounds since our tools ARE so limited. PCers have a choice in whether they want to learn basic math first or skip right to using a calculator – WebTvers have to learn their math first. Which leads me back to my opinion that if one was to poll a random group
of average PC users and a random group of average WebTv users (if you could find them, lol), the percentage of people who had a basic understanding of or experience with using html would be higher in the WebTv group.

Prof

wrote:

By the way, WebTv doesn’t even have
anything like Notepad, so PC’ers are
already a step up. 😉

Notepad is simply a text editor of the most
basic type. It offers no advantages at all
when writing HTML. Just plain black text
on a white background.

Yes, thanks, I know what Notepad is.

That’s good.

WebTv doesn’t have programs,

Yes, thanks, I know it doesn’t have programmes. God knows, every single webTV user who has posted in defence of it has went to great pains to point that fact out.
We get the fact that it has no programmes.
Can we drop th esubject of WebTV having no hard drive or programmes now, It’s getting rather tedious and repetitive.

hence no notepad-like tool for writing
and
saving, and no place to save it to anyway.
Hence you learn to work around that – you use email to write, practice &
save your codes, and/or you use a testbed.

And how is that any different to writing your code in Notepad?

There’s a script for one
designed by a former WebTver for WebTvers that allows you to paste your
code in and view the result, an save up to 3000 characters in it. I have
my own and use it regularly when I’m on the WebTv for temporarily holding text I want to paste elsewhere later. Since we can’t have more
then one window/screen open at a time, it’s a godsend.

No tabbed browsing?

When you progress to the point of wanting to build a website, you get yourself a hosting plan somewhere that includes a WebTv-friendly editor
for writing, saving, previewing….

The user then needs to know how to save
the work, change file extensions, and then
FTP the files to a web server.

No FTP either. No HD to store to and upload from. On WebTv the best you
can do is transload something that’s already on the internet.

And you’ll find that the type of people who
code in notepad, tend to FTP using a
command prompt, so they don’t even use
an FTP programme.

When I have alot of files I want to upload I use FTP – it’s fast enough
for me.

I get the impression you don’t entirely get FTP.
FTP is a protocol, not a tool or application. File Transfer Protocol. There are some applications which automate the process for PC, Linux and Mac users, but at the end of the day FTP is a base protocol in the same way as HTTP, SMPT and NNTP are.
It’s speed is not determined by software or anything like that. It’s determined by your connection speed and the response times at the server you’re transferring to or from.

All of that requires the same HTML skills
that you advocate, plus several other
signifigant skills that aren’t understood by
webTV users.

Right. Not understood by WebTvers because they’re things that don’t apply to to them. Same goes the other way – there are things not understood by PC’ers because they’re things that don’t apply to them.

Except for the PC users who enable WebTV to work.
Web servers don’t run on WebTV boxes. They run on Linux, Unix and Windows computers, and they are the backbone of the internet that you access through your WebTV box.
You’ll probably find that a lot of those online tools for coding and scripting through WebTV were actually developed on PC’s in the first place.

I’m not trying to beat a dead horse by responding again, just trying to make my point remain clear (it if ever was to begin with). Neither WebTv uses nor Pc users are stupid/inferior as a group.

I don’t believe I ever claimed that to be the case.
Feel free to re-read my posts if you really need to.

For WebTvers, that often means taking the longer,
harder
route & employing work-arounds since our tools ARE so limited.

Well, if you will insist on trying to eat soup with a fork, what can you expect?
You wouldn’t use a hacksaw to hammer a nail into a wall would you?

PCers
have a choice in whether they want to learn basic math first or skip right to using a calculator –

So, PC users are inherently lazy because they have taken the time to select the right tool for the job?

WebTvers have to learn their math first.
Which leads me back to my opinion that if one was to poll a random group
of average PC users and a random group of average WebTv users (if you could find them, lol), the percentage of people who had a basic understanding of or experience with using html would be higher in the WebTv group.

And still I contest that claim.
You’re backing it up with nothing more than heresay and personal opinions.

I was prepared to accept that you had a point, but I’m rapidly losing any sympathy I may have had for your opinions, as you seem to be constantly on the defensive, to the point where it’s almost an obsession.

Look. I have said WebTV is a tool for accessing the net. If it gets you on the net with limited capabilities, and that’s all you want of it, then fine. It works and it does its job. It’s the right tool for you. I’m happy for you.
So why do you feel the need to keep bleating on about how WebTV users are more technically savvy in your opinion?
It’s almost as if you’re trying to compensate for an inferiority complex. Get this. There’s no need to.
The more you bleat on about it and try to make yourself look superior, the more you draw attention to yourself from the type of people who engage in abusive exchanges instead of a civilised one like I thought we were having. Can you see how it rapidly becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy? A circular thing, doomed to repeat itself in an endless spiral of self pity and defensive postulating?

On 2 Feb 2007 14:57:06 -0800, scribbled:

I’m not trying to beat a dead horse by responding again

Yes, you are.

On 2007-02-02 02:09:05 -0400, Voivod said:

On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 19:55:21 -0400, Papa Joe <Sorry> scribbled:

Web TV is not a computer hooked to the internet. It’s a way to do a few basic things on the internet with a TV. That’s it. In about 5 years most small handheld devices will surpase what web TV can offer.

My phone already has. WebTV can’t play/store MP3s. WebTV can’t make phone calls. WebTV can’t fit in your pocket or work in the car/field. WebTV can’t download anything. WebTV can’t… It’s like a mantra.

Thanks I knew it was rudementry but it’s amazing how much it lacks. I’m not saying it’s stupid… but it is below class compared to anything else than can hook to the net,
It’s only feature and it’s a good one, is the ability to surf the net on a large TV, thats said this can be accomplished with any PC or MAC and you actually have a computer too.

—
Welcome to Papa Joe’s

We get the fact that it has no programmes. Can
we drop th subject of WebTV having no hard
drive or programmes now, It’s getting rather
tedious and repetitive.

I would like to drop it because it IS getting tedious, but having no hd/programs is the entire base of what I’m trying to get across- that that lack creates a need that stimulates interest in learning things what one otherwise might not even think twice about.

And how is that any different to writing your
code in Notepad?

Design your next webpage using just email and/or an online test bed and do it without ever having more than one screen open at a time, and you tell me how it’s different.

When I have alot of files I want to upload I use
FTP – it’s fast enough for me.

I get the impression you don’t entirely get FTP.
FTP is a protocol, not a tool or application …
It’s speed is not determined by software or
anything like that. It’s determined by your
connection speed and the response times at
the server you’re transferring to or from.

Yes, I know that too. I suppose I should have again been clearer by writing "I use an FTP program and it’s a fast enough method for me that I’m not concerned with using a command line shortcut instead. "

I’m not trying to beat a dead horse by
responding again, just trying to make my point
remain clear (it if ever was to begin with).
Neither WebTv uses nor Pc users are
stupid/inferior as a group.

I don’t believe I ever claimed that to be the
case. Feel free to re-read my posts if you really
need to.

I didn’t say you did personally. From my first post I was rebutting an attitude frequently encountered and explicitly displayed here by VoidVod, which is what prompted me out of lurking to begin with. My responses then prompted further responses from those who incorrectly interpited my words as saying pc users are inferior … and here we are.

For WebTvers, that often means taking the
longer, harder route & employing work-arounds
since our tools ARE so limited.

Well, if you will insist on trying to eat soup with
a fork, what can you expect?

Again – the entire base of what I’m trying to get across is that that lack creates a need that stimulates interest in learning things what one otherwise might not even think twice about.

So, PC users are inherently lazy because they
have taken the time to select the right tool for
the job?

I have tried repeatedly to make it clear it’s not about intelligence (or laziness as you now chose to say) but about a need that leads to learning …. If you or anyone else wants to continue to read into that what’s not there, so be it.

I was prepared to accept that you had a point,
but I’m rapidly losing any sympathy I may have
had for your opinions, as you seem to be
constantly on the defensive, to the point where
it’s almost an obsession.

I don’t want your sympathy. I started out with the aim to educate on just what WebTv is and rebut VV’s nonsense that WebTv users are just too stupid to use a computer, or whatever his exact wordage was, hence my mentioning html as an example which others then jumped on instead of just getting the point – missing the forest thru the trees – leading to more responses to responses, each one getting further from the original intention. And on and on and on….
If you see one’s holding up their end of a discussion rather than just leaving as "being on the defensive almost to obsession" – well, there’s nothing I can do to change that.

So why do you feel the need to keep bleating
on about how WebTV users are more
technically savvy in your opinion?

It’s almost as if you’re trying to compensate for
an inferiority complex. Get this. There’s no need
to.

The more you bleat on about it and try to make
yourself look superior, the more you draw
attention to yourself from the type of people
who engage in abusive exchanges instead of a
civilised one like I thought we were having. Can
you see how it rapidly becomes a self-fulfilling
prophesy? A circular thing, doomed to repeat
itself in an endless spiral of self pity and
defensive postulating?

Not counting VoidVods comments or the demeaning comments added by others – the exchange between you and I was civil. WAS civil, because now you are resorting to personal insults and demeaning language yourself. ‘Twas not me who turned this conversation in that sour direction, but it will be me who ends it.
It’s never been my style to stoop to personal attacks in a debate on ANYthing and I’m not going to start now.
If someone still don’t understand what I’ve been saying, they never will, there’s no point in my saying anything more on the subject.

On 2 Feb 2007 23:14:34 -0800, scribbled:

If someone still don’t understand what I’ve been saying, they never will, there’s no point in my saying anything more on the subject.

Heard that lie before….

wrote:

We get the fact that it has no programmes. Can
we drop th subject of WebTV having no hard
drive or programmes now, It’s getting rather
tedious and repetitive.

I would like to drop it because it IS getting tedious, but having no hd/programs is the entire base of what I’m trying to get across- that that lack creates a need that stimulates interest in learning things what one otherwise might not even think twice about.

And how is that any different to writing your
code in Notepad?

Design your next webpage using just email and/or an online test bed and do it without ever having more than one screen open at a time, and you tell me how it’s different.

I design my webpages in notepad.
That involves writing raw code and understanding how it will look when rendered out through a browser.
That’s EXACTLY the same thing.
Why do you have such difficulty understannding that?

When I have alot of files I want to upload I use
FTP – it’s fast enough for me.

I get the impression you don’t entirely get FTP.
FTP is a protocol, not a tool or application …
It’s speed is not determined by software or
anything like that. It’s determined by your
connection speed and the response times at
the server you’re transferring to or from.

Yes, I know that too. I suppose I should have again been clearer by writing "I use an FTP program and it’s a fast enough method for me that I’m not concerned with using a command line shortcut instead. "

I was right. You didn’t understand it.
It makes no difference to speed whether you use FTP at the command prompt, or you use a pre-made FTP package. They’re all making use of the same protocol, and are governed by outside factors.
The speed is governed by how fast your computer can talk to the server.

I’m not trying to beat a dead horse by
responding again, just trying to make my point
remain clear (it if ever was to begin with).
Neither WebTv uses nor Pc users are
stupid/inferior as a group.

I don’t believe I ever claimed that to be the
case. Feel free to re-read my posts if you really
need to.

I didn’t say you did personally. From my first post I was rebutting an attitude frequently encountered and explicitly displayed here by VoidVod, which is what prompted me out of lurking to begin with. My responses then prompted further responses from those who incorrectly interpited my words as saying pc users are inferior

Whether you admit it to yourself or not, that is exactly how your words appeared to everyone.
You can deny it all you want to, but statements such as… "PCers have a choice in whether they want to learn basic math first or skip right to using a calculator – WebTvers have to learn their math first." and
"because WebTv’ers have no choice but to learn they often know more about page coding than your average pc user"
….naturaly engender a *them and us* mentality in the reader. Can’t you see that?

For WebTvers, that often means taking the
longer, harder route & employing work-arounds
since our tools ARE so limited.

Well, if you will insist on trying to eat soup with
a fork, what can you expect?

Again – the entire base of what I’m trying to get across is that that lack creates a need that stimulates interest in learning things what one otherwise might not even think twice about.

Have you ever wondered why a carpenter buys a woodworking toolkit and not an engineers toolkit?
Would it make him a more accomplished carpenter if he did buy an engineers toolkit and then tried to bodge together a chair using them? The correct answer is "No"
That is why a carpenter buys a woodworking tookit.

So, PC users are inherently lazy because they
have taken the time to select the right tool for
the job?

I have tried repeatedly to make it clear it’s not about intelligence (or laziness as you now chose to say)

Oh yes, sorry. I can see that you clearly said that with this statement… "It’s a rare bird that’s going to ignore all the powerful tools at their disposal and decide to learn how to do it from scratch. Why bother, that’s why one gets a computer right?"
….Its so clear now.

but about a need that leads to
learning …. If you or anyone else wants to continue to read into that what’s not there, so be it.

I read into it what I see in the subtext. You make sweeping claims about how great, intelligent and innovative WebTV users are compared to PC users, cleverly disguised amid the confusion caused by your apparent civilty and politeness. Then when someone sees through the haze and spots the sweeping generalisations, you get all defensive and deny that’s what you meant. The statement I’m replying to now is a perfect example of this. It displays a great inferiority complex in your personality which seems to be mirrored by those of most webTV users who have posted here in this discussion.
Just accept that you use a tool to access the net, and that it does the job you require of it.
That neither makes you superior or inferior.
It just makes you part of the wider web community.
If you want to wave your willy in the air and say "WebTV breeds better coders", I’d suggest you display some evidence of superior coding carried out on a webTV platform.
But you’d best make sure they’re good examples, because I can share with you some blisteringly hot examples of coding carried out on PC, Linux and Mac platforms.

I was prepared to accept that you had a point,
but I’m rapidly losing any sympathy I may have
had for your opinions, as you seem to be
constantly on the defensive, to the point where
it’s almost an obsession.

I don’t want your sympathy. I started out with the aim to educate on just what WebTv is and rebut VV’s nonsense that WebTv users are just too stupid to use a computer, or whatever his exact wordage was, hence my mentioning html as an example which others then jumped on instead of just getting the point

Why should anyone accept your point if they feel it is wrong or if they fel they have been sleighted?

– missing the forest through the trees –

Hardly. When you make a sweeping statement claiming that WebTV users are better HTML coders than PC users because they don’t have the right tools for the job, is guaranteed to get peoples backs up, and I suspect that was your intention all along.
It’s akin to claiming a motorcyclist is better at delivering large items of furniture than a van driver, because he’s been forced to learn tricks and workarounds to accomplish the task.

leading to more responses to responses, each one getting further from the original intention. And on and on and on….
If you see one’s holding up their end of a discussion rather than just leaving as "being on the defensive almost to obsession" – well, there’s nothing I can do to change that.

There is.
You can stop being so defensive.
Learn to live with the fact that you have chosen a tool which is adequate for acessing the web, and even allows you to throw together rudimentary websites, and that as such, this makes you part of the wider web community, thus rendering your *us and them* attitude quite childish and petulent. Learn that there are more computer based platforms out there than just PC’s. The internet community is made up of PC users, Linux users, Mac users, PDA users, mobile phone users, kiosk users, and webTV users. Yes. You guys are included in there, so stop trying to exclude yourselves.

Jeeze, I’m starting to think you WebTV guys are more whiney and sanctimonious than the Linux community, and that’s saying something.

So why do you feel the need to keep bleating
on about how WebTV users are more
technically savvy in your opinion?

It’s almost as if you’re trying to compensate for
an inferiority complex. Get this. There’s no need
to.

The more you bleat on about it and try to make
yourself look superior, the more you draw
attention to yourself from the type of people
who engage in abusive exchanges instead of a
civilised one like I thought we were having. Can
you see how it rapidly becomes a self-fulfilling
prophesy? A circular thing, doomed to repeat
itself in an endless spiral of self pity and
defensive postulating?

Not counting VoidVods comments or the demeaning comments added by others – the exchange between you and I was civil. WAS civil, because now you are resorting to personal insults and demeaning language

Where?
Show me an example of where I insulted you.
I think you’re getting a tad over-defensive again.
It is becoming an obsession, isn’t it?

yourself. ‘Twas not me who turned this conversation in that sour direction, but it will be me who ends it.

Please don’t resort to veiled threats, especially if as you claim, you want to keep this civilised.

It’s never been my style to stoop to personal attacks in a debate on ANYthing and I’m not going to start now.

Implying that I did stoop to a personal attack?
Again I propmt you to shoe me where.

If someone still don’t understand what I’ve been saying, they never will,

I understand what you’ve been saying. I just don’t agree with most of it. If you look those terms up, you’ll see that they have completely different meanings.

there’s no point in my saying anything more on the subject.

Because you have nothing new to say on the subject.
You’ve been spouting the same defensive, self pitying postulations for 2 days now and you still can’t see it can you? And no, that was not a personal attack before you start to accuse me.

Tell me. If you were walking along the street and you saw a workman digging up the road to acces a water main with a teaspoon, would you think to yourself
A) That workman obviously has superior skills, because he has chosen to dig his holes with an inapropriate tool, therefore forcing him to learn skills that his colleages will never understand.
…. or …
B) Why doesn’t he use a spade or a kango drill?

The answer is staring you in the face.
Lets see if you can now relate the analogy to the situation we have been discussing.
I doubt it.