Levels or Curves first

"Dave" wrote in message

Nearly always I do levels first
but when doing it other way around
it seems to be no different.

And I know what’s done on levels can be done on curves
but I guess most of us do both. Are there a reason to do a specific one first?

Generally it’s best to do the larger modifications first. Many people use levels because of the convenience of the histogram.

Another way to do this, that avoids relying on a histogram, is to use Image>Adjust>Threshold to get assess the brightest and darkest points in the image, and then use curves, skipping the levels step. This has the advantage that you can clip unimportant parts of the image, allowing them to go completely black or white.
—
Mike Russell
www.curvemeister.com/forum/

On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:04:42 GMT, "Mike Russell" wrote:

"Dave" wrote in message

Nearly always I do levels first
but when doing it other way around
it seems to be no different.

And I know what’s done on levels can be done on curves
but I guess most of us do both. Are there a reason to do a specific one first?

Generally it’s best to do the larger modifications first. Many people use levels because of the convenience of the histogram.

Another way to do this, that avoids relying on a histogram, is to use Image>Adjust>Threshold to get assess the brightest and darkest points in the image, and then use curves, skipping the levels step. This has the advantage that you can clip unimportant parts of the image, allowing them to go completely black or white.

Thanks for your reply Mike; and like you said, it seem to be a standard to do levels first.

Thanks for telling me about doing it via Threshold -never heard of it, and I’ll do my first one right now.

Dave

In article ,
Dave wrote:

Nearly always I do levels first
but when doing it other way around
it seems to be no different.

And I know what’s done on levels can be done on curves
but I guess most of us do both. Are there a reason to do a specific one first?

I usually do everything I need to do in Curves.

If I’m using Levels, it’s because I’m setting the hilight and/or shadow points, which I will do before doing further color correction in Curves, so in such cases I use Levels first, then Curves.

—
Photography, kink, polyamory, shareware, and more: all at http://www.xeromag.com/franklin.html

On 2007-02-20 22:41:08 -0400, tacit said:

In article ,
Dave wrote:

Nearly always I do levels first
but when doing it other way around
it seems to be no different.

And I know what’s done on levels can be done on curves
but I guess most of us do both. Are there a reason to do a specific one first?

I usually do everything I need to do in Curves.

If I’m using Levels, it’s because I’m setting the hilight and/or shadow points, which I will do before doing further color correction in Curves, so in such cases I use Levels first, then Curves.

Levels first and set output,
then curves.

Keep it to 1 levels and 2 curves max, they destroy (clip) information as you can see in the histogram.

—
Welcome to Papa Joe’s

On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:41:08 -0500, tacit wrote:

In article ,
Dave wrote:

Nearly always I do levels first
but when doing it other way around
it seems to be no different.

And I know what’s done on levels can be done on curves
but I guess most of us do both. Are there a reason to do a specific one first?

I usually do everything I need to do in Curves.

If I’m using Levels, it’s because I’m setting the hilight and/or shadow points, which I will do before doing further color correction in Curves, so in such cases I use Levels first, then Curves.

thanx for your reply tacit. Even you, who only sometimes use levels, use levels before curves when ever you do use levels. Interesting that you say, you who obviously know more of PS than the average contributor here, also set your hilight and shadow points in the histogram. So does Mike and the other fundi’s. (fundi = teacher in SA street language:-)

Dave

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 00:25:46 -0400, Papa Joe <Sorry> wrote:

On 2007-02-20 22:41:08 -0400, tacit said:

In article ,
Dave wrote:

Nearly always I do levels first
but when doing it other way around
it seems to be no different.

And I know what’s done on levels can be done on curves
but I guess most of us do both. Are there a reason to do a specific one first?

I usually do everything I need to do in Curves.

If I’m using Levels, it’s because I’m setting the hilight and/or shadow points, which I will do before doing further color correction in Curves, so in such cases I use Levels first, then Curves.

Levels first and set output,
then curves.

Keep it to 1 levels and 2 curves max, they destroy (clip) information as you can see in the histogram.

Thanks Papa Joe, I like to do levels X 1 and curves X 1 unless I do a selection and do the selection in a 2nd session. When doing levels or curves, I usually select the eyes and do it alternatively. Here is an example, where I selected the eyes in one and the reflection in the water in the other, to do it alternatively. (I am sure most of the people do it this way:-)

http://dave.photos.gb.net/p38821100.html

http://dave.photos.gb.net/p38821099.html

Dave

"Dave" wrote in message

On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:41:08 -0500, tacit wrote:

In article ,
Dave wrote:

Nearly always I do levels first
but when doing it other way around
it seems to be no different.

And I know what’s done on levels can be done on curves
but I guess most of us do both. Are there a reason to do a specific one first?

I usually do everything I need to do in Curves.

If I’m using Levels, it’s because I’m setting the hilight and/or shadow points, which I will do before doing further color correction in Curves, so in such cases I use Levels first, then Curves.

thanx for your reply tacit. Even you, who only sometimes use levels, use levels before curves when ever you do use levels. Interesting that you say, you who obviously know more of PS than the average contributor here, also set your hilight and shadow points in the histogram. So does Mike and the other fundi’s. (fundi = teacher in SA street language:-)

Dave

can’t think of many times I used both
I normally use one or the other
or try both and decide which looks best
or maybe use levels on a selected area only (or selective color or other adjuster) and curves on the over-all image

I try and move only the midtones unless there is a huge problem in the shadow or highlights
in that case the shadow/highlight filter is often my choice

most images I work on have a studio gray background, and are close to perfectly exposed to begin with
I have used the center dropper to get the color shifted (can be good- often horrible)
or I use the black or white droppers
I have tried Mike’s technique of changing to LAB mode with good results to affect only the light/dark channel not the colors

some daylight shots that have very warm tones to the light (especially sunset shots) get all messed up on auto levels or droppers, the "white" should not be white!!
I have to just use my eyes for those.

"Dave"

Nearly always I do levels first
but when doing it other way around
it seems to be no different.

And I know what’s done on levels can be done on curves
but I guess most of us do both. Are there a reason to do a specific one first?

I usually do everything I need to do in Curves.

If I’m using Levels, it’s because I’m setting the hilight and/or shadow points, which I will do before doing further color correction in Curves, so in such cases I use Levels first, then Curves.

thanx for your reply tacit. Even you, who only sometimes use levels, use levels before curves when ever you do use levels. Interesting that you say, you who obviously know more of PS than the average contributor here, also set your hilight and shadow points in the histogram. So does Mike and the other fundi’s. (fundi = teacher in SA street language:-)

Dave

Katwoman
can’t think of many times I used both
I normally use one or the other
or try both and decide which looks best
or maybe use levels on a selected area only (or selective color or other adjuster) and curves on the over-all image

and I can think of very few times not using both

I try and move only the midtones unless there is a huge problem in the shadow or highlights
in that case the shadow/highlight filter is often my choice

Here Katlady, you are touching something else which can be very important as well. I try to ‘always’ move the midtones to darker. Usually 0.95 or even as low as 0.87 for the sake of better contrast.

If the midtones slider must go to 1.00+ , you are reducing the contrast. Then, back to curves:-)

most images I work on have a studio gray background, and are close to perfectly exposed to begin with
I have used the center dropper to get the color shifted (can be good- often horrible)
or I use the black or white droppers

and you people can by Whitebalance-Cards from nearly any café on any street corner, while the photographic shops in SA simply do not believe it is worthwhile to import it:-)

I have tried Mike’s technique of changing to LAB mode with good results to affect only the light/dark channel not the colors

some daylight shots that have very warm tones to the light (especially sunset shots) get all messed up on auto levels or droppers, the "white" should not be white!!
I have to just use my eyes for those.

Sometimes I wonder whether it must be a true color or only a nice color. Not talking of her blouse or pants of course, but the warm or cooler tones.

Dave

"Dave" wrote in message
….

and you people can by Whitebalance-Cards from nearly any caf

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 21:15:46 GMT, "Mike Russell" wrote:

"Dave" wrote in message
…

and you people can by Whitebalance-Cards from nearly any café on any street corner, while the photographic shops in SA simply do not believe it is worthwhile to import it:-)

Neutral objects are very common, and the usefulness of gray cards is limited because natural images contain such a mixture of light sources. If you do want a gray reference, use a piece of white or gray magazine or newspaper. Or stop by the paint store and get some gray paint swatches that are as close to neutral as possible. They are free, durable, and about as good quality as a conventional gray balance card.

thanks a lot for this tip – like what you said about some gray paint swatches. I am using a ± 30² cm’s piece of polesterine (sp) . which was a tip given to me by the owner of PhotoWorld where I bought my Fuji FinePix S9600 recently. The polesterine (sp) came from of a canon printers packing, and it works perfect for whitebalance.

I’ve measured Lab values for several brands of paint samples and other objects here. http://www.curvemeister.com/downloads/pins/
The paint samples are for American companies. I will gladly measure any additional chips that are sent to me.Warning – check back soon as I will be redoing the paint values with a newer spectrometer.

Many thanks for this color samples. The very first one I appreciate is skin color, which can be such a tough cookie. Thanks for that Pin Collection. I could not miss it.

Dave

On 2007-02-21 19:36:27 -0400, Dave said:

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 21:15:46 GMT, "Mike Russell" wrote:

"Dave" wrote in message
…

and you people can by Whitebalance-Cards from nearly any café on any street corner, while the photographic shops in SA simply do not believe it is worthwhile to import it:-)

Neutral objects are very common, and the usefulness of gray cards is limited because natural images contain such a mixture of light sources. If you do want a gray reference, use a piece of white or gray magazine or newspaper. Or stop by the paint store and get some gray paint swatches that are as close to neutral as possible. They are free, durable, and about as good quality as a conventional gray balance card.

thanks a lot for this tip – like what you said about some gray paint swatches. I am using a ± 30² cm’s piece of polesterine (sp) . which was a tip given to me by the owner of PhotoWorld where I bought my Fuji FinePix S9600 recently. The polesterine (sp) came from of a canon printers packing, and it works perfect for whitebalance.

I’ve measured Lab values for several brands of paint samples and other objects here. http://www.curvemeister.com/downloads/pins/
The paint samples are for American companies. I will gladly measure any additional chips that are sent to me.Warning – check back soon as I will be redoing the paint values with a newer spectrometer.

Many thanks for this color samples. The very first one I appreciate is skin color, which can be such a tough cookie. Thanks for that Pin Collection. I could not miss it.

Dave

Even better by a macbeth color card like the pro’s.
I use a grayscale card that has RGB values marked on it. Very handy. I can go from white to black and 10 steps in-between with a curves adjustement to match the RGb value on the card. It’s PERFFFect.

—
Welcome to Papa Joe’s

Dave wrote:

Nearly always I do levels first
but when doing it other way around
it seems to be no different.

And I know what’s done on levels can be done on curves
but I guess most of us do both. Are there a reason to do a specific one first?

Use adjustment layers, and then you can just move the layers around if you think one comes before the other. And change the settings if you come to any late-in-the-game realizations. 🙂

Also, Curves is just Levels with more flexibility. Anything you can do in Levels you can also do in Curves.

Dave wrote:

Nearly always I do levels first
but when doing it other way around
it seems to be no different.

And I know what’s done on levels can be done on curves
but I guess most of us do both. Are there a reason to do a specific one first?

Paul Mitchum
Also, Curves is just Levels with more flexibility. Anything you can do in Levels you can also do in Curves.

Wonder why you repeat me? This is not very original:-)

Dave

On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:16:53 +0200, Dave wrote:

And I know what’s done on levels can be done on curves
but I guess most of us do both. Are there a reason to do a specific one first?

Paul Mitchum
Also, Curves is just Levels with more flexibility. Anything you can do in Levels you can also do in Curves.

Wonder why you repeat me? This is not very original:-)

Dave

When you done what ever you are busy with, Paul,
do not forget to explain why you made such a Popeye of your self.

Dave

Dave wrote:

On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:16:53 +0200, Dave wrote:

Paul Mitchum

And I know what’s done on levels can be done on curves
but I guess most of us do both. Are there a reason to do a specific one first?

[ snip restored ]
Use adjustment layers, and then you can just move the layers around if you think one comes before the other. And change the settings if you come to any late-in-the-game realizations. 🙂

Also, Curves is just Levels with more flexibility. Anything you can do in Levels you can also do in Curves.

Wonder why you repeat me? This is not very original:-)

Dave

When you done what ever you are busy with, Paul,
do not forget to explain why you made such a Popeye of your self.
Dave

The decision to use adjustment layers is yours entirely. If you’re concerned about which comes first and for what reason, you can switch the adjustment layers around and see what happens.

On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:07:29 -0800, (Paul Mitchum)
wrote:

Dave wrote:

On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:16:53 +0200, Dave wrote:

Paul Mitchum

And I know what’s done on levels can be done on curves
but I guess most of us do both. Are there a reason to do a specific one first?

[ snip restored ]
Use adjustment layers, and then you can just move the layers around if you think one comes before the other. And change the settings if you come to any late-in-the-game realizations. 🙂

Also, Curves is just Levels with more flexibility. Anything you can do in Levels you can also do in Curves.

Wonder why you repeat me? This is not very original:-)

Dave

When you done what ever you are busy with, Paul,
do not forget to explain why you made such a Popeye of your self.
Dave

The decision to use adjustment layers is yours entirely. If you’re concerned about which comes first and for what reason, you can switch the adjustment layers around and see what happens.

Here is a repeat of my original post

*
Nearly always I do levels first
but when doing it other way around
it seems to be no different.

And I know what’s done on levels can be done on curves
but I guess most of us do both. Are there a reason to do a specific one first?
*

You keep on repeating me.
Either you do not understand English
or my English…

don’t bother further
go play somewhere else

Dave

"Dave" wrote in message

On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:07:29 -0800, (Paul Mitchum)
wrote:

Dave wrote:

On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:16:53 +0200, Dave wrote:

Paul Mitchum

And I know what’s done on levels can be done on curves
but I guess most of us do both. Are there a reason to do a specific one first?

[ snip restored ]
Use adjustment layers, and then you can just move the layers around if
you think one comes before the other. And change the settings if you come to any late-in-the-game realizations. 🙂

Also, Curves is just Levels with more flexibility. Anything you can do
in Levels you can also do in Curves.

Wonder why you repeat me? This is not very original:-)

Dave

When you done what ever you are busy with, Paul,
do not forget to explain why you made such a Popeye of your self.
Dave

The decision to use adjustment layers is yours entirely. If you’re concerned about which comes first and for what reason, you can switch the adjustment layers around and see what happens.

Here is a repeat of my original post

*
Nearly always I do levels first
but when doing it other way around
it seems to be no different.

And I know what’s done on levels can be done on curves
but I guess most of us do both. Are there a reason to do a specific one first?
*

You keep on repeating me.
Either you do not understand English
or my English…

don’t bother further
go play somewhere else

Dave

no I think he is saying it’s redundant to use both curves and levels as one or the other will suffice and they do the same thing??
which is what I was saying>>> why use both??
I use curves OR levels
not curves AND levels
so I never had any answer to which is first because why do both??

Dave wrote:

[..]

Here is a repeat of my original post

*
Nearly always I do levels first
but when doing it other way around
it seems to be no different.

And I know what’s done on levels can be done on curves
but I guess most of us do both. Are there a reason to do a specific one first?
*

You keep on repeating me.
Either you do not understand English
or my English…

don’t bother further
go play somewhere else

Dave

Your question was: Should I do levels first or curves?

My advice to you was to use adjustment layers rather than doing either levels or curves first. Adjustment layers are layers which can apply a curve or level without changing the underlying layer. You can drag them around and reorder them, like other layers. You can also apply layer masks to them and use blending options with them. They’re much, much better than agonizing over whether a layer or curve should come first. In fact, *that’s why they were invented.*

So learn what an adjustment layer is. Here’s the first result I got from a google search:
< http://www.graphics.com/modules.php?name=Sections&op=vie warticle&artid= 261>

If you don’t want any advice, don’t ask for it.

In article <1htwqql.1xaed41we4bbhN%>,
(Paul Mitchum) wrote:

Also, Curves is just Levels with more flexibility. Anything you can do in Levels you can also do in Curves.

The difference is that Levels has a built-in histogram display; Curves doesn’t. For that reason, it’s sometimes easier to set hilight and shadow points in Levels, were you can actually see the histogram.

Other than that, though, you are correct.

—
Photography, kink, polyamory, shareware, and more: all at http://www.xeromag.com/franklin.html

On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:31:03 -0800, (Paul Mitchum)
wrote:

If you don’t want any advice, don’t ask for it.

I said, ‘

And I know what’s done on levels can be done on curves’

and you replied

Also, Curves is just Levels with more flexibility. Anything you can do in Levels you can also do in Curves.

I said,

but when doing it other way around it seems to be no different.

and you replied

you can switch the adjustment layers around and see what happens.

are there a word like parroting in the English language?

Dave

On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 18:52:48 -0500, "KatWoman" wrote:

"Dave" wrote in message

On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:07:29 -0800, (Paul Mitchum)
wrote:

Dave wrote:

On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:16:53 +0200, Dave wrote:

Paul Mitchum

And I know what’s done on levels can be done on curves
but I guess most of us do both. Are there a reason to do a specific one first?

[ snip restored ]
Use adjustment layers, and then you can just move the layers around if
you think one comes before the other. And change the settings if you come to any late-in-the-game realizations. 🙂

Also, Curves is just Levels with more flexibility. Anything you can do
in Levels you can also do in Curves.

Wonder why you repeat me? This is not very original:-)

Dave

When you done what ever you are busy with, Paul,
do not forget to explain why you made such a Popeye of your self.
Dave

The decision to use adjustment layers is yours entirely. If you’re concerned about which comes first and for what reason, you can switch the adjustment layers around and see what happens.

Here is a repeat of my original post

*
Nearly always I do levels first
but when doing it other way around
it seems to be no different.

And I know what’s done on levels can be done on curves
but I guess most of us do both. Are there a reason to do a specific one first?
*

You keep on repeating me.
Either you do not understand English
or my English…

don’t bother further
go play somewhere else

Dave

no I think he is saying it’s redundant to use both curves and levels as one or the other will suffice and they do the same thing??
which is what I was saying>>> why use both??
I use curves OR levels
not curves AND levels
so I never had any answer to which is first because why do both??

why do both?
completely agreed, KatWoman, except that the histogram somehow makes it easier, and it is as if most people do both.
It also seems that Curves are more sophisticated which leaves you with a much wider field, but again, it is, as an example, *easier* to set the midpoint in Levels. You also pointed that out.

In recent times, I sometimes test the ‘Auto setting’ in Curves, and sometimes it makes a huge difference, and sometimes nearly nothing at all. Why would this be? Can this mean the color is not far out?

While writing this, I tested on a photo ‘Auto’ setting in Levels and afterwards ‘Auto’ setting in Curves, and to the eye, they seem to deliver exactly the same result. But that seems to only set the Brightness/Contrast

Dave

"Dave" wrote in message

On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:31:03 -0800, (Paul Mitchum)
wrote:

If you don’t want any advice, don’t ask for it.

I said, ‘

And I know what’s done on levels can be done on curves’

and you replied

Also, Curves is just Levels with more flexibility. Anything you can do in Levels you can also do in Curves.

I said,

but when doing it other way around it seems to be no different.

and you replied

you can switch the adjustment layers around and see what happens.

are there a word like parroting in the English language?
Dave

HEHE the same parroting
rinse repeat
ditto

FYI in this thread so far
we are and have always been discussing using curves and levels on adjustment layers not making changes to the images (background) layer

Dave I think the auto setting looks same in curves and levels too I often try it first, then if I like it it stays or I move it more if the image is a very typical light situation it often works but it does not work if you like off-white or warm cast to the image or you have a lot of lights or darks areas, unusual lighting (like color gels)
or unusual images like all snow or a lot of one color etc

it’s all what you want as a result, some images look better more contrasty

tip: press alt key to reset curves or levels back to orig, to try another setting
in the past I was a levels girl, I had used curves in my scanner software and when I used the PS one I did not like the way it moves and did not have good control
but I have seen some benefit in curves now that I finally figured out how to control it more subtlely
and thanks to Mike Russell have enjoyed using Lab mode
especially when I cannot get a good result in RGB

On Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:59:58 -0500, "KatWoman"

FYI in this thread so far
we are and have always been discussing using curves and levels on adjustment layers not making changes to the images (background) layer

Yep, this is a standard I keep strictly with:-)

Dave I think the auto setting looks same in curves and levels too I often try it first, then if I like it it stays or I move it more if the image is a very typical light situation it often works but it does not work if you like off-white or warm cast to the image or you have a lot of lights or darks areas, unusual lighting (like color gels)
or unusual images like all snow or a lot of one color etc
it’s all what you want as a result, some images look better more contrasty
tip: press alt key to reset curves or levels back to orig, to try another setting

Many thanks for this one, KatWoman; I simply cancelled but now I see alt alters cancel to reset. This makes it much easier. Even when working on Corel Painter, Photoshop keep on being indispensable.

in the past I was a levels girl, I had used curves in my scanner software and when I used the PS one I did not like the way it moves and did not have good control
but I have seen some benefit in curves now that I finally figured out how to control it more subtlely

I always do Curves after the Levels routine, but when coming to a tutorial (can not even remember which one:-) which had the user doing Curves before Levels, without mentioning a reason, the question popped up in my mind – are there really a difference when doing it vice versa. And it is as if it can be done according to taste. But again, maybe the connoisseurs will have a reason for doing Levels first, as it is obviously people like Mike preference.

and thanks to Mike Russell have enjoyed using Lab mode
especially when I cannot get a good result in RGB

Yep, he got me editing in Lab as well, then saving it without changing the mode back to RGB, and then, when trying to open it, I’ve got to go do the mode again:-)

Thanx for your reply KatWoman, we’ve got the A1 Grand Prix some 3 kilometers from where I live, and this weekend will be a Grand Prix Weekend:-)

Dave

PS.
Why when running a spell checker over what I have written, the dictionary try it’s best to convince me to change KatWoman to Laywoman?:-)

"Dave" wrote in message

On Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:59:58 -0500, "KatWoman"

FYI in this thread so far
we are and have always been discussing using curves and levels on adjustment
layers not making changes to the images (background) layer

Yep, this is a standard I keep strictly with:-)

Dave I think the auto setting looks same in curves and levels too I often try it first, then if I like it it stays or I move it more if the image is a very typical light situation it often works but it does not work if you like off-white or warm cast to the image or you have a lot of lights or darks areas, unusual lighting (like color gels)
or unusual images like all snow or a lot of one color etc
it’s all what you want as a result, some images look better more contrasty
tip: press alt key to reset curves or levels back to orig, to try another setting

Many thanks for this one, KatWoman; I simply cancelled but now I see alt alters cancel to reset. This makes it much easier. Even when working on Corel Painter, Photoshop keep on being indispensable.

in the past I was a levels girl, I had used curves in my scanner software and when I used the PS one I did not like the way it moves and did not have
good control
but I have seen some benefit in curves now that I finally figured out how to
control it more subtlely

I always do Curves after the Levels routine, but when coming to a tutorial (can not even remember which one:-) which had the user doing Curves before Levels, without mentioning a reason, the question popped up in my mind – are there really a difference when doing it vice versa. And it is as if it can be done according to taste. But again, maybe the connoisseurs will have a reason for doing Levels first, as it is obviously people like Mike preference.

and thanks to Mike Russell have enjoyed using Lab mode
especially when I cannot get a good result in RGB

Yep, he got me editing in Lab as well, then saving it without changing the mode back to RGB, and then, when trying to open it, I’ve got to go do the mode again:-)

Thanx for your reply KatWoman, we’ve got the A1 Grand Prix some 3 kilometers from where I live, and this weekend will be a Grand Prix Weekend:-)

Dave

PS.
Why when running a spell checker over what I have written, the dictionary try it’s best to convince me to change KatWoman to Laywoman?:-)

spellchecker is a great feature but far from purr-fect!
seems it would try CatWoman first LOL
I have actually had people tell me how to spell my own nickname!!!

I am a dyslexic typer, in MS word it thankfully self corrects as I type, unfortunately discouraging me from typing more carefully but form is not from
the word is spelled right but still not correctly used
no substitute for re-reading your posts before hitting send

my local newspaper editors must be dependent upon it though because I see fare used for fair, their for there, and other frequent errors that would be, or should be, caught by human proofreaders we also have a lot of English as Second language citizens, so maybe that’s another reason
it’s hard enought to learn to speak another language wthout having to spell it too!
English is crazy language for spelling anyway, the rules have many exceptions

and internet and texting have spawned their own weird versions of words and owned is pwned in gaming
lamers become llamas
and no one seems to agree how to spell noobs newbs or noobies guess we have all been able to communicate DESPITE our spelling but some posts have so many oddly spelled words symbols etc as to make them almost unreadable
I am not a stickler for spelling and grammar, but too much of it makes the posts worthless and unreadable

my sister worked in a print shop and I always pass my websites and ad copy by her first, she catches those errors better than anyone I know, we drove past a sign and it said AUTHORZIED VEHICLES ONLY
instead of authorized, I had seen it a dozen times and not noticed.

have fun at the races

"KatWoman" wrote:

<snip>

I am a dyslexic typer, in MS word it thankfully self corrects as I type, unfortunately discouraging me from typing more carefully but form is not from
the word is spelled right but still not correctly used
no substitute for re-reading your posts before hitting send
my local newspaper editors must be dependent upon it though because I see fare used for fair, their for there, and other frequent errors that would be, or should be, caught by human proofreaders we also have a lot of English as Second language citizens, so maybe that’s another reason
it’s hard enought to learn to speak another language wthout having to spell it too!
English is crazy language for spelling anyway, the rules have many exceptions

and internet and texting have spawned their own weird versions of words and owned is pwned in gaming
lamers become llamas
and no one seems to agree how to spell noobs newbs or noobies guess we have all been able to communicate DESPITE our spelling but some posts have so many oddly spelled words symbols etc as to make them almost unreadable
I am not a stickler for spelling and grammar, but too much of it makes the posts worthless and unreadable

my sister worked in a print shop and I always pass my websites and ad copy by her first, she catches those errors better than anyone I know, we drove past a sign and it said AUTHORZIED VEHICLES ONLY
instead of authorized, I had seen it a dozen times and not noticed.

Well, it would be very nice of you if you have your Right_Margin set right (see word-wrap problem above) and try to use CAPITAL letter on new paragraph so other could tell it’s the new paragraph not word-wrapping problem etc..

English is my 2nd language and who knows I may be able to learn something from you (actually like many people have problem understand my poor Engflish, your English seems too perfect for me to understand). BTW, I do not try to connect you but to point out the word-wrap problem we (may not all but some) have with your message.

"Joe" wrote in message
"KatWoman" wrote:

<snip>

I am a dyslexic typer, in MS word it thankfully self corrects as I type, unfortunately discouraging me from typing more carefully but form is not from
the word is spelled right but still not correctly used
no substitute for re-reading your posts before hitting send
my local newspaper editors must be dependent upon it though because I see fare used for fair, their for there, and other frequent errors
that would be, or should be, caught by human proofreaders we also have a lot of English as Second language citizens, so maybe that’s another reason
it’s hard enought to learn to speak another language wthout having to spell
it too!
English is crazy language for spelling anyway, the rules have many exceptions

and internet and texting have spawned their own weird versions of words and owned is pwned in gaming
lamers become llamas
and no one seems to agree how to spell noobs newbs or noobies guess we have all been able to communicate DESPITE our spelling but some posts have so many oddly spelled words symbols etc as to make them
almost unreadable
I am not a stickler for spelling and grammar, but too much of it makes the posts worthless and unreadable

my sister worked in a print shop and I always pass my websites and ad copy by her first, she catches those errors better than anyone I know, we drove past a sign and it said AUTHORZIED VEHICLES ONLY
instead of authorized, I had seen it a dozen times and not noticed.

Well, it would be very nice of you if you have your Right_Margin set right (see word-wrap problem above) and try to use CAPITAL letter on new paragraph so other could tell it’s the new paragraph not word-wrapping problem etc..

English is my 2nd language and who knows I may be able to learn something from you (actually like many people have problem understand my poor Engflish, your English seems too perfect for me to understand). BTW, I do not try to connect you but to point out the word-wrap problem we (may not all but some) have with your message.

/P my reader program does not have the word wrap problem you describe,,,>>>> /P I use ENTER KEY to begin a new line
/P and in the quoted text
/P I see a ">" before each line
/P I use caps and punctuation infrequently SORRY
/P as this is a not an HTML or rich text format group I cannot set a margin I am using plain text format
maybe you have to set word wrap on your side??

/P eecummings fan