Optimum workflow for sRGB prints?

From: OT

Have not been very happy with prints I’ve had done done at Costco or Sam’s (both using Frontier machines). They appear to lack the snap of those done on my own printer, and I’m thinking it’s the limited sRGB colorspace that these machines use. So what is the best workflow to achieve best results? Do I convert my (untagged) images to the ICC profile for the Frontier printer, and then adjust the image (using Photoshop’s "preview" function), or just convert the image and make no further corrections?

I assume you’re working in a wider gamut space like AdobeRGB, right? If so, if you have the *specific* ICM profile for that particular Frontier machine (which I doubt you can get from places like Sam’s or Costco) I’d convert to that profile with Image > Mode > Convert to Profile. Some high-end shops make their Frontier profiles available but most do not. Alternatively you can just try a generic Frontier profile but this would probably be hit or miss.

If you don’t have a device-specific profile (the more likely case) I’d suggest doing all your edits in your wider space and then Image > Mode > Convert to Profile with sRGB. This will compress saturated colors instead of clipping them and give you your best shot at printing what you see on the screen. You can see this most clearly with a saturated photo if you convert it straight to jpeg from a wider gamut and view it with a browser vs converting the same image to sRGB before the jpeg step. The one converted to sRGB viewed with a non-color managed browser will look a lot closer to the original than the one not converted because the colors weren’t clipped.

Bill

On 03 Jan 2004 15:45:16 GMT, (Bill Hilton)
wrote:

From: OT

Have not been very happy with prints I’ve had done done at Costco or Sam’s (both using Frontier machines). They appear to lack the snap of those done on my own printer, and I’m thinking it’s the limited sRGB colorspace that these machines use. So what is the best workflow to achieve best results? Do I convert my (untagged) images to the ICC profile for the Frontier printer, and then adjust the image (using Photoshop’s "preview" function), or just convert the image and make no further corrections?

I assume you’re working in a wider gamut space like AdobeRGB, right? If so, if you have the *specific* ICM profile for that particular Frontier machine (which I doubt you can get from places like Sam’s or Costco) I’d convert to that profile with Image > Mode > Convert to Profile. Some high-end shops make their Frontier profiles available but most do not. Alternatively you can just try a generic Frontier profile but this would probably be hit or miss.
If you don’t have a device-specific profile (the more likely case) I’d suggest doing all your edits in your wider space and then Image > Mode > Convert to Profile with sRGB. This will compress saturated colors instead of clipping them and give you your best shot at printing what you see on the screen. You can see this most clearly with a saturated photo if you convert it straight to jpeg from a wider gamut and view it with a browser vs converting the same image to sRGB before the jpeg step. The one converted to sRGB viewed with a non-color managed browser will look a lot closer to the original than the one not converted because the colors weren’t clipped.

Bill

So Bill, do I make any adjustments after conversion, using the preview function? That’s what’s puzzling me. And I do have the actual ICC profiles for each of the Frontier machines in my area (courtesy of www.drycreekphoto.com).

From: OT

So Bill, do I make any adjustments after conversion, using the preview function? That’s what’s puzzling me. And I do have the actual ICC profiles for each of the Frontier machines in my area

If you have the profile I’d open up a soft proof with it (with ‘Simulate: Paper White’ checked, ‘use black point compensation’ checked and probably Rel Col for the rendering intent) and use adjustment layers to tweak the file (usually the contrast is lower due to the reduced dynamic range of the paper vs your monitor), then group all these adjustment layers specific to that profile in a layer set with a name like "Costco ICM profile". That way you can turn them on/off with one click, you still have the original data unaltered, and you can create different layer sets for different profiles, enabling only the one you want to print on.

If the printer profile is accurate and if your monitor profile is accurate and if you don’t have many colors out of gamut you should get a good match, but that’s a lot of ‘ifs’ 🙂

Then I’d still convert to sRGB and send it out.

In my first post I said "if you have the *specific* ICM profile for that particular Frontier machine I’d convert to that profile …" but that’s probably not good advice for a place like Costco or Sams. I’m guessing they assume all files are sRGB and their printers do a conversion to the specific profile RGB numbers, so if you have already converted once to their profile and they do it a second time you’ll no doubt get a color cast.

I was thinking of a lab like Calypso in Santa Clara when I wrote that, they have their LightJet profiles on-line for download and you can either send in an unconverted file and Calypso will apply it or you can do the pre-flighting (convert to profile, add border, size it exactly, etc) and get a discount. But they also sell prints from an Epson 9600 and for that one they specifically say do NOT convert to profile first. I’m pretty sure a local Frontier printer would prefer the files unconverted too.

Bill

OT wrote:

So Bill, do I make any adjustments after conversion, using the preview function? That’s what’s puzzling me. And I do have the actual ICC profiles for each of the Frontier machines in my area (courtesy of www.drycreekphoto.com).

I wonder if the ICC profiles are any good or not. Dry Creek do add a disclaimer saying that even though you tell them to print without adjustments of any sort they may not follow your directions some or all of the time.

Print the Drycreek test targets on your printer and via the Frontiers using the profile and compare to see if it is even close.

JP

On 03 Jan 2004 20:13:08 GMT, (Bill Hilton)
wrote:

From: OT

So Bill, do I make any adjustments after conversion, using the preview function? That’s what’s puzzling me. And I do have the actual ICC profiles for each of the Frontier machines in my area

If you have the profile I’d open up a soft proof with it (with ‘Simulate: Paper White’ checked, ‘use black point compensation’ checked and probably Rel Col for the rendering intent) and use adjustment layers to tweak the file (usually the contrast is lower due to the reduced dynamic range of the paper vs your monitor), then group all these adjustment layers specific to that profile in a layer set with a name like "Costco ICM profile". That way you can turn them on/off with one click, you still have the original data unaltered, and you can create different layer sets for different profiles, enabling only the one you want to print on.

If the printer profile is accurate and if your monitor profile is accurate and if you don’t have many colors out of gamut you should get a good match, but that’s a lot of ‘ifs’ 🙂

Then I’d still convert to sRGB and send it out.

In my first post I said "if you have the *specific* ICM profile for that particular Frontier machine I’d convert to that profile …" but that’s probably not good advice for a place like Costco or Sams. I’m guessing they assume all files are sRGB and their printers do a conversion to the specific profile RGB numbers, so if you have already converted once to their profile and they do it a second time you’ll no doubt get a color cast.

Bill, you were absolutely right about this–DON’T convert to the Frontier’s profile. These printers do a super job of accepting and printing sRGB, but the moment you convert to their "profile," expect black (and all shades of grey) to become quite brownish and skin tones to become orange, indicating that double-profiling may take place as you describe. Kinda makes you wonder why Drycreek makes such a deal about these, then, doesn’t it? Just to test the Sam’s (Frontier 372?) machine I took a scanned Macbeth color chart and a couple reference prints in, one (of each) without profiling, and the other with ICC profiling for Frontier. The profiled images were disasters and the non-profiled ones had fairly accurate, on-target colors. Although they appear good, I have not as yet measured them with a densitometer.

The guy in front of me (at Sam’s) got back a package of prints that all had a severe bluish-purple cast, and he said they seemed "pretty good" to him. Then–thank heavens–he said they looked "just like that on my monitor at home," so maybe they make no attempt to automatically adjust for color at all (a good thing). I asked the operator about this and she said they do no manual adjustments at all, but occasionally the machine will adjust for extreme under/over exposure conditions–but I wish they’d just leave that alone too.

I was thinking of a lab like Calypso in Santa Clara when I wrote that, they have their LightJet profiles on-line for download and you can either send in an unconverted file and Calypso will apply it or you can do the pre-flighting (convert to profile, add border, size it exactly, etc) and get a discount. But they also sell prints from an Epson 9600 and for that one they specifically say do NOT convert to profile first. I’m pretty sure a local Frontier printer would prefer the files unconverted too.

Bill

From: Buster

Bill, you were absolutely right about this–DON’T convert to the Frontier’s profile. … Kinda makes you wonder why Drycreek makes such a deal about these, then, doesn’t it?

I’d think if the profiles are accurate then they’d be useful for soft-proofing, but that’s about it if the "lab" at Costco or Sam’s isn’t expecting you to deliver converted files.

"Bill Hilton" wrote in message

From: Buster

Bill, you were absolutely right about this–DON’T convert to the Frontier’s profile. … Kinda makes you wonder why Drycreek makes such a deal about these, then, doesn’t it?

I’d think if the profiles are accurate then they’d be useful for

soft-proofing,

but that’s about it if the "lab" at Costco or Sam’s isn’t expecting you to deliver converted files.

I wonder what type of internal software these devices use; if it was Photoshop, there’d be no problem since it won’t allow a "double conversion" to the same profile/color space. In fact, even if they use software that allows this to happen, wouldn’t it just map to exactly the same color values? IOW, why would there be such a "shift?"

—–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–

Duh…never mind. The only explanation is that these systems are not CMS aware, thus they have no idea what the *incoming* profile is, rather they assume the starting color values are sRGB numbers.

And, if I’m wrong. please set me straight.

—–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–