Even More Confused over Color Management, we need a sticky.

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Posted By
Malameel
May 25, 2005
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571
Replies
15
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Closed
I searched the websites for answers. I read the threads here, and I just read the book "Mastering Digital Printing", and I just don’t get why I can’t get my colors right. My prints are just horrible.

I shoot my photographs with a Canon 1Ds MarkII.
I shoot Raw and use ACR 2.4 in Photoshop CS on a new Dell Precision 670 WinXPsp2 to procees the file at 16 bit. Both the Camera and PS are in the Adobe RGB color space. I edit the image, then when I print to my Epson 2200, I select on the Print and Preview I select profile, which I use luster and on the intent I use relative colormetric and use black point compensation. Then in Epson driver I basicaly turn off color managment. I also turned off print preview because someone here said it might cause the printer to turn back on the printer’s color management.

The prints come out very dark and off color usually towards heavy overcasted greens. My monitor is calibrated. My drivers updated.

What am I doing wrong. Should my working space not be adobe RGB? When I soft proof, the colors get really weird.

Now if I let the printer do the color managment, I am close to what I want and on screen, however, it is not really good enough. Especially when I try to use Epson 2200 one day to get in the ballpark and then the next day my Epson 9600 thought I was playing a different sport.

I would appreciate any help. Then when we get an answer, I woudld hope we can get a sticky thread because every thread I did read about this didn’t have the entire process documented. Thanks!

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chrisjbirchall
May 25, 2005
Yep – It’s a complicated subject.

One of the best explanations around is on Ian Lyons’ web site <http://www.computer-darkroom.com/>

Hope it helps.

Chris.
PB
Paul_Budzik
May 25, 2005
Another great source is Real World Color Management by Bruce Fraser, Chris Murphy, and Fred Bunting. Very readable and a very good reference. They cover the entire process and flow of color management

Paul
IM
Ian_M_Goodman
May 25, 2005
Melameel

It would be better for you to use a profile to use on your epson printer with the ink and paper supplied by the same company.
To my knowledge Epson do not supply ICC profiles for their inks/paper which is not going to help you.

I use successfully Lyson papers and Photonic inks with Lyson matt paper (very nice images) you can check out Lyson at www.lyson.uk.com they provide icc profiles for their papers used with their inks.

Another thing I have not done is to turn the epson print management off because if I do I seem to get rather muddy imgage printing and that is not what I want.

The other reason that I like Lyson papers over other paper is that they produce a 120gsm paper which I can print and when it is finished I can then Heat Seal the image mount onto a foam core borad and frame it and have it ready to collect by my client rather quickly, you cannot do this with epson or other papers as they all need time to dry.

I hope this helps you in your color printing.

Ian Goodman
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Malameel
May 25, 2005
Here is where I am at now, but I do not know where this is!

First, Epson does supply ICC profiles, so I am cool there.

I had read already Ian Lyons’ web site but on one page he suggest using absolute colormetric and on another he says use relative colormetric, and some other website say use perceptual.

The problem is that everybody says a little a about the subject but not enough about the entire process. They maybe correct, if they are making other changes in Photoshop, they maybe assuming that I also have similar settings in say my color work space.

I would appreciate somebody sharing their color workflow using an Epson Printer with me. Thanks.
G
GordonGraham
May 25, 2005
For photographs, rendering intents of either perceptual or relative colorimetric are generally the recommended choices. Absolute colorimetric is generally not recommended in this case. The choice between the two is often based on your judgement of which looks better for a specific image.

You mentioned that when you soft proof the colors get really weird. It sounds to me like your printer profile is bad. If your monitor is properly calibrated and you set up soft proofing with your printer profile and get bad colors on screen, I’d suspect the profile. You should probably be selecting "Simulate Paper Color", too. Do the weird colors on your soft proof match your print reasonably well? If so, this would again point to a bad or wrong profile.
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Malameel
May 25, 2005
Just a quick update.
I just did another print, an it came out better.

I am willing to conceed that the weirdness in colors in the soft proofing was my part of my discovery process.

The latest image I have is allot more saturated than my screen whcih is calibrated. And when a say allot more saturated, I mean the screen image is dull and slightly glooming, as I want, but the print is Disneyland.

If I want to get to next level, I would want to figure out a way to have a workflow between my screen, my Epson 2200, my Epson 9600, and the printing press that I do my corporate advertising which also contain pictures. I feel that I may barely get my colors working here, but I want to get things easier when I output there. Its all so confusing.
IL
Ian_Lyons
May 25, 2005
I had read already Ian Lyons’ web site but on one page he suggest using absolute colormetric and on another he says use relative colormetric, and some other website say use perceptual.

So that there is no misunderstanding here, I only suggest the use of Absolute in ONE tutorial that is specifically addressed at those who wish to simulate PRESS output using their Inkjet. The tutorial that you should be reading is <http://www.computer-darkroom.com/ps7_print/ps7_print_1.htm> Note that it does not mention Absolute Colorimetric. Likewise the Soft proofing tutorial found at <http://www.computer-darkroom.com/softproof/softproof_1.htm> does not mention Absolute Colorimetric
SO
Stephen_Oliver
May 25, 2005
Malameel,

We may be in the same boat; see my 5/20 message "Color Management Acting Flaky" Stephen Oliver, "Color Management Acting Flaky" #, 20 May 2005 12:42 pm </cgi-bin/webx?50>

This may not be a workflow problem. I’ve been using CM with good results since I got my first 6-color Epson years ago. Then I did a virtually-simultaneous change to XP, CS and a replacement 1280 and that’s when my prints went dixie. Unless there’s some new setting in CS that I’m missing, logic keeps pointing me to some sort of internal CM problem. Certainly my problems go beyond rendering intent, and I don’t believe my profiles are bad. In addition to the custom profile mentioned in my posting, I’ve tried the Epson profiles that used to work with PS6 and Win98 and get the same (bad) results.

Just what you wanted to hear, right? Please post if you find relief, I’ll do the same, and good luck to us both.

Steve
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Malameel
May 25, 2005
First things first, to Lyons:
By no means am I not appreciative of your website and the info there, but it is confusing to me because I am looking for an answer and it seems that the answer changes (of course depending on the situation) but I was hoping for a general answer. I have had the most success with your info, but it does still leaves my questions unanwsered. This talks about the end process, how do I setup my software before I go to print so that I know I am editing the image correctly?

For instance, if I get to the end, and then I make these changes to get the print "right," I maybe getting the printing process right, but maybe not the print I want to achieve. If I softproof and findout my image is bad, then I need to go back and reedit so I need to get the upfront process right and the end.

And to Steve, misery loves company! I did read your post but you would think that this shouldn’t be an issue. With color managmnet off in the printer and ICC profiles as my target, and Adobe RGB as my working space, I should be able to hit print and love life.
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GordonGraham
May 25, 2005
Malameel,

There is one approach you might want to try with regard to reediting your image after you soft proof. The basic idea is to do all your initial edits without soft proofing and make the print look as good as you can.

Then duplicate this image to use as a reference. Next, go back to the original image and turn soft proofing on. It will look somewhat different, probably flatter with less contrast than the orginal image. Luckily you have that duplicate to look at. The trick is to now make some additional edits, for this particular printer, that will make the soft proofed image look like the original (as close as you can).

To do this, set up a new layer group at the top of your stack called "PrinterMods" or something like that. Then add some adjustment layers within this group, Curves, Levels, whatever you think you need. Make adjustments here with the goal of making the soft proofed image look as close as you can to the original (duplicated) image.

When you are done, you can turn the "PrinterMods" layer group on or off at will so that you still have the original image with the original edits available. When you want to print, turn the group on. If you want to reedit the orignal, turn it off. If you want to print to a different printer, create another group called "Printer2Mods" or something like that and add new adjustment layers to suit.

This technique was explained in one of the Adobe whitepapers titled "A Color Managed Workflow — From Camera to Final Print" and seems to work really well.
IL
Ian_Lyons
May 25, 2005
how do I setup my software before I go to print so that I know I am editing the image correctly?

I think this essay covers pretty much everything.

<http://www.computer-darkroom.com/ps8_colour/ps8_1.htm>
IL
Ian_Lyons
May 25, 2005
Then duplicate this image to use as a reference. Next, go back to the original image and turn soft proofing on. It will look somewhat different, probably flatter with less contrast than the orginal image. Luckily you have that duplicate to look at.

That’s what I suggest in the tutorial he used.
L
Lundberg02
May 25, 2005
Look in the print driver and make sure you have set ICM to OFF. This is never mentioned anywhere, but you have to do it.
This is in addition to "NO ColoR Management".
IL
Ian_Lyons
May 25, 2005
Look in the print driver and make sure you have set ICM to OFF.

Please tell me how this can be done. The reason I ask is that with ALL of the 2200 drivers I have access to you cannot even get to NCA mode until you choose ICM in the Epson driver.

<http://www.computer-darkroom.com/ps7_print/ps7_print_6.htm>

Note that since ICM is a radio button and not a checkbox you can’t turn it Off and still choose NCA… both must be ON before driver level CM is turned OFF.
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GordonGraham
May 25, 2005
Ian,

Sorry if I repeated good advice that had already been given! I use that technique myself and it works really well. I generally find that all I need to do is add just a little bit of extra highlight through a curves adjustment layer and things look pretty close to the original. I also do some output sharpening in the "PrinterMods" group.

Gordon

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