Up to my ears in ICC profiles

RW
Posted By
Ray_Wertheim
Oct 24, 2005
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433
Replies
9
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Closed
I am using CS2 and I have profiles for all my devices – camera, monitor, printer, scanner. I am totally confused about how to use them in PS. My goal is to produce a print (RGB) that matches what I see on my monitor. I am using Adobe 1998 as the work space. Do I use the embedded profile when I open my photo file?
How and when would I use the camera profile in PS.
At what point do I use the printer profile?
Do I use the ‘assign profile feature’ at any point?
The more I read on color management the more confused I get. Any help will be greatly appreciated.
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L
LenHewitt
Oct 24, 2005
If it helps you in any way here is my short "idiot’s guide to CM" <g>

The numbers in an image file do not represent specific colours. For example, 255R, 0G, 0B just means "make the brightest, most saturated red you can". It doesn’t mean a specific SHADE of red, and the red that will result will depend upon the capabilities of the device the data is being sent to (usually either a monitor or printer of some sort).

Only when coupled with an ICC profile that describes the ‘colour space’ do those numbers represent a specific shade.

There is data in a file. That data doesn’t represent specific colours UNTIL the colour space is stated (embedded profile or assign profile).

The working profile sets up the colour space you are working in, and the embedded profile allows the CM engine to convert the file data values to your working space values so those values still represent the same colour as originally indicated by the file data and embedded profile.

The monitor profile alters that data from your working space on the fly to allow the monitor to display the colours represented by the data within the working space profile.

When you print, the output profile alters the data to allow the printer to reproduce the colours represented by the data and the image profile.

The monitor profile effectively drops out of the equation when you print.

Provided the ‘translation’ from working space to monitor is correct AND the translation from working space to output device is correct, the print will match the monitor.

However, only if the translation from embedded profile to working space is also correct will the monitor and print also match the original file intentions.

For a fuller explanation, spend some 15 minutes or so over at http://www.computer-darkroom.com
J
Jim
Oct 24, 2005
wrote in message
I am using CS2 and I have profiles for all my devices – camera, monitor, printer, scanner. I am totally confused about how to use them in PS. My goal is to produce a print (RGB) that matches what I see on my monitor. I am using Adobe 1998 as the work space. Do I use the embedded profile when I open my photo file?
How and when would I use the camera profile in PS.
At what point do I use the printer profile?
Do I use the ‘assign profile feature’ at any point?
The more I read on color management the more confused I get. Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Gee, it isn’t that hard…

You use the camera profile to define what the numbers mean (absent a profile, the color numbers have no meaning).
If the camera profle is embedded in the image, then you use it. If there is no profile embedded in the image, but you know what gamut it should have, then you assign the appropriate profile after you have loaded the image into PS.
If there is no profile embedded in the image, but you do not know what the profile was, then you have blown the job and need to reshoot the image. You use the printer profile as an output because you are sending information to the printer.
You define the printer profile with the "print with preview" feature of PS. You tell the printer driver not to use any profile because PS has already converted the image to the correct (one you chose that is) profile. You use the Adobe RGB as the working profile because it is a larger gamut than the others.
If you have profiled your monitor, camera, and printer correctly then what you get should be quite close to what you see.
Jim
RW
Ray_Wertheim
Oct 24, 2005
Len –

Thanks for the explanation – I think I understand the idea behind the profiles just not how to use them – I have read the website you suggested – the questions remain.

Do I keep the embedded profile when I open the photo file or do I convert it to the working space.

When I assign the camera profile the colors look most correct on the monitor however if I print the photo that way it doesn’t look like what I saw on the monitor even when I use the printer ICC profile to print allowing PS to do the CM.

I must be missing something in the process
CN
Cybernetic Nomad
Oct 25, 2005
Do I keep the embedded profile when I open the photo file or do I convert it to the working space.

The answer to that question is "it depends"

Most workflows go like this: get image, assign input profile (scanner or camera profile), convert to working space, work on the image, save. Convert to output profile (printer profile) and output.
You have to decide whether or not you want to preserve the profile, or convert to another one. Just don’t ignore it!
MD
Michael_D_Sullivan
Oct 25, 2005
Where did you get your monitor profile? Was this custom-created on your computer and monitor with a colorimeter? With Adobe Gamma? Or does it come from the monitor maker? The problem is that monitors change over time; also, their controls get adjusted or their drivers get adjusted, rendering the maker’s profile obsolete even if it was correct when the monitor first came out of the box. Also the profile needed for a given monitor will be different depending on the ambient light. A monitor used in a moderately dark room, surrounded by neutral colors, will need a different profile than the one needed for a monitor used in a brightly lit office. Likewise, the color of the ambient light will affect your perception of the monitor color, requiring differences in the profile.

Once you have an appropriate profile for your monitor, and have it set, you don’t use that profile for images. You should use a device independent profile for images, such as sRGB, AdobeRGB, or ProColor. Likewise, your working space should be a device independent profile. Typically, if you work for the web you should be using sRGB for both your default working space and your incoming/outgoing images. If you are working to print your photos, you may want to use AdobeRGB, ideally for images coming from the camera, your working space, and your saved files.

To change the profile for an image, Convert it, don’t Assign it. Assigning changes the profile without changing the data, so your image will appear to change; this should only be necessary if you have files with an incorrect profile or untagged files (with no profile) and you know what the proper profile is for the image.

As for whether to convert an image to working space or work on it in its space, when opening it, it all depends. Either one can be appropriate. If your workspace is sRGB and you principally do web work, you probably will want incoming AdobeRGB images to be converted to sRGB at open, so you won’t have to convert them later, for example. If your workspace is AdobeRGB and you principally do prints, then if you open some sRGB photo images for your typical kind of work you might want to convert them, but if you get an sRGB image that is going to be used on the web you probably should work in it as is, without converting.
L
LenHewitt
Oct 25, 2005
Ray,

The Nomad has spelt it out pretty well….

If you have a good(!) monitor profile, and assign the canera profile and then convert to your working space, the monitor should reflect the true intent of the image.

If you have a good printer profile (That means correct for the printer, AND the particular media you’re printing on) the print SHOULD match the screen image.
RW
Ray_Wertheim
Oct 25, 2005
Guys,

Thanks for your replies. The monitor, printer and camera were profiled using Gretagmacbeth Eye 1 photo. The workflow I am using is as follows – The pictures are shot with a Nikon D2x using the Adobe ’98 color space. When opened in PS I keep the embedded profile and then assign the camera profile.

I next work on the photo to get it looking correct and then print to my Epson printer using the profile that I created for that specific media. I have not been converting to that printer profile before printing because I assume that by selecting the correct profile and turning off any printer color management that PS is converting on the fly before printing.

I am surprised by how far off the prints are from what I see on my monitor. While the colors are reasonably close the contrast and brightness are way off. Perhaps I need to tweek the profiles – I guess I didn’t expect to have to do that after all the profiling
GS
Gustavo Sanchez
Oct 25, 2005
Have you tried converting at least one critical picture to, let’s say sRGB and then convert to your printer profile and then printing it to see if both (softpreview in screen and print) match?

If the profiles are all right and the space you are asuming your camera uses it’s really AdobeRGB, then they should match reasonably.

Otherwise, I guess your profiles are wrong, your camera space is not using AdobeRGB or your monitor is broken (or some combination of all of the above troubles).

PS. Have you got hold of a copy of "Reald World Color Management"?
TC
Tim_Clifton
Oct 25, 2005
Ray, how did you derive you printer profiles, and what Epson printer are you using?

You might find it worth while to purchase one profile for one type of paper to see how it works. Depending on the printer, some profiles for one type of paper can be $25.00. Epson also has profiles available. If you do purchase one, it is important to read the "Read Me" file to make sure you are using the same settings as when the profile is created.

Also I assume you have selected let Photoshop determine colors, above the printer profile selection box.

Tim

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