Basic Question About WORKING SPACE Color Profiles…

J
Posted By
jyeager
May 12, 2008
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542
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21
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Closed
I’m having a difficult time with color profiles.

From what I always understood, the WORKING SPACE color profile affected real-time interpretation of the data on the screen. In other words, no changes to the WORKING SPACE color profile would actually affect the file — only how it’s displayed on your screen (like monitor settings).

Now, my problem is that everything I have printed at the printers comes out a shade darker than I intended it to. This means that my WORKING SPACE color profile is too bright, correct? By simply darkening it to match what I’ve got on paper, I will have better control over how things come out on the printed page.

Am I understanding what the WORKING SPACE color profile is, so far?

If so, why doesn’t anything change when I cycle through them in Color Settings (Shift+Ctrl+K)? Even after showing MORE options, cycling through the dozen (or so) available WORKING SPACE options doesn’t do anything to the file I’ve got open.

Short of darkening my entire desktop via video card or monitor color settings, how do I make documents in Photoshop appear darker, so that what I see on screen matches what gets output to paper?

I like my every day color settings (and brightness levels) just the way they are. The only thing I was to see darker are Photoshop documents, inside Photoshop.

Thanks.

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Sid_Phillips
May 12, 2008
Your working color space is either what’s already in the document (preserve embedded profile) or converted into a new color space to your liking (convert to working RGB). PS uses the color space information to give you an accurate preview of the file on your monitor, assuming your monitor has been calibrated and profiled.

If your images are coming up dark at the printer, odds are you either have a bad calibration, bad profile, or bad color management at the printer. If you know your calibration is good and that your profile is good, the problem is at the printer. If that’s the problem, the best solution is a good profile from the printer to be used as your working space.

Making changes without a good working space profile is a total crap shoot – you’re just making guesses in the dark. I’m lucky in that my printers all adhere pretty closely to SWOP Sheet-Fed, so our proofs and print runs are close. We may tweak the proofs once or twice before going to press, and we may have to tweak the press a little, but it’s all manageable.
PF
Peter_Figen
May 12, 2008
"From what I always understood, the WORKING SPACE color profile affected real-time interpretation of the data on the screen. In other words, no changes to the WORKING SPACE color profile would actually affect the file — only how it’s displayed on your screen (like monitor settings)."

That was true in Ps 5 and maybe 6, but now Ps can use multiple working spaces, so just changing the working space will not change your document, unless, it is an untagged file.

"Now, my problem is that everything I have printed at the printers comes out a shade darker than I intended it to. This means that my WORKING SPACE color profile is too bright, correct? By simply darkening it to match what I’ve got on paper, I will have better control over how things come out on the printed page."

Do you know for a fact that your monitor calibration, print viewing conditions and output profile are correct? Any or all of these can affect your output. Exactly how have you hardware calibrated your screen – to what spec – y’know, color temp, white point luminence, etc? How are you viewing your "dark" prints? Where did you get the output profile for your printer, or do they even have one?

"Am I understanding what the WORKING SPACE color profile is, so far? "

Not really. Real World Photoshop is a great place to start reading about color management basics.

"If so, why doesn’t anything change when I cycle through them in Color Settings (Shift+Ctrl+K)? Even after showing MORE options, cycling through the dozen (or so) available WORKING SPACE options doesn’t do anything to the file I’ve got open. "

"Short of darkening my entire desktop via video card or monitor color settings, how do I make documents in Photoshop appear darker, so that what I see on screen matches what gets output to paper? "

You make sure that your monitor is properly calibrated and especially that it is not too bright. If you’re using an LCD screen I’m going to guess that that’s your first problem. Secondly, you need a good custom output profle to convert your file to prior to printing. If your printer doesn’t have one, you’ll have to have one made for you. Thirdly – you need to view your prints under the right lighting conditions. www.solux.net is a good place to start.

"I like my every day color settings (and brightness levels) just the way they are. The only thing I was to see darker are Photoshop documents, inside Photoshop."

As I mentioned before, there’s a good chance that you screen is set too bright. You may think you like the way it looks in non color managed applications, but you’re just fooling yourself – sorta like people who think the louder speaker is the one that always sounds better.
J
jyeager
May 12, 2008
I understand that proper calibration will fix 99% of these problems, but the monitor isn’t dedicated to graphic design work. It’s multi-purpose and serves a host of people in a host of tasks inside the household.

What I really need to know is how I can darken what my monitor is showing me inside Photoshop, and Photoshop only. I don’t want to change the monitor’s inherent color settings, nor the video card’s. If I can just get those PSD files in Photoshop to look a touch darker than they currently do — without affecting the files themselves (no actual graphic editing involved) — then I’ll be a happy camper.

Is there, currently, any way for me to do this? Again, I just want docs inside Photoshop to appear a touch darker, while everything OUTSIDE of Photoshop remains just as it’s currently calibrated.
PF
Peter_Figen
May 12, 2008
I’ll bet that once you actually do calibrate your screen and spend a few minutes with it, you’ll adjust to your other apps and may even like them better. But until you calibrate and make a monitor profile for Ps to use, you’ll never know. There are ways to do what you are asking, but without starting out with a good solid calibration first, they’re a waste of time to pursue.
J
jyeager
May 13, 2008
There are ways to do what you are asking

I’d love to hear them! =) In fact, just one would be great.
JM
J_Maloney
May 13, 2008

1.Calibrate your monitor.
2.Make sure your monitor is calibrated correctly.
3.Calibrate regularly.
4.You get the idea.
PF
Peter_Figen
May 13, 2008
jyeager – do the hardware calibration with a reasonable white point luminence like 120 cd/m2 for lcd or 90 cd/m2 for crt and then get back to us. What you’re asking for is a kludge that will onlyl serve to confuse you. It’s better to start off knowing your screen is right, which right now it obviously isn’t.
C
Curvemeister
May 13, 2008
On Mon, 12 May 2008 15:40:03 -0700, wrote:

I understand that proper calibration will fix 99% of these problems, but the monitor isn’t dedicated to graphic design work. It’s multi-purpose and serves a host of people in a host of tasks inside the household.
What I really need to know is how I can darken what my monitor is showing me inside Photoshop, and Photoshop only. I don’t want to change the monitor’s inherent color settings, nor the video card’s. If I can just get those PSD files in Photoshop to look a touch darker than they currently do — without affecting the files themselves (no actual graphic editing involved) — then I’ll be a happy camper.
Is there, currently, any way for me to do this? Again, I just want docs inside Photoshop to appear a touch darker, while everything OUTSIDE of Photoshop remains just as it’s currently calibrated.

Although not often done, it is easy to set up your monitor reasonably accurately by eye alone. It’s also not a bad way to learn a little about matching color appearances.

This can be done by creating a new RGB profile whose primaries match that of the manufacturer’s monitor profile, and with a custom gamma setting <
2.2. You’ll need to experiment with different gamma values. The logic is
a bit reversed. A lower gamma signifies a brighter display and will therefore have the effect of making Photoshop display a darker image.

Once you’ve saved several custom profiles at different gamma values, go to Color Settings, and set each on in turn as your monitor profile, click OK, and check your image. Repeat until you get the appearance you want.

Happy camping – LOL.

Mike Russell – http://www.curvemeister.com
BL
Bob Levine
May 13, 2008
Mike,

Please turn off the autoquote. I’m a newsreader fan myself, but it really messes up the web view of things.

Thanks,

Bob
J
jyeager
May 13, 2008
Mike Russell wrote :

This can be done by creating a new RGB profile whose primaries match that of the manufacturer’s monitor profile, and with a custom gamma setting < 2.2.

Could you be more specific? I’ve already mentioned how going through every Working Space profile possible yielded no tangible results that I could see.

Is there, or is there not, a way to lower the gamma setting of everything (RGB, CMYK, etc.) that’s opened on-screen in Photoshop CS3 — as you would the monitor’s color settings — non-destructively (ie, without changing the color profile associated with the document itself)..?

If so, could someone just tell me how to do that? Calibrating my monitor the correct way is something I intend to do down the line, but I can’t afford it right now and I’m looking for a quick fix to get me through the week. That’s all.

It’s already tuesday and 99% of the responses have not been helpful. Please, just tell me it can’t be done if it can’t. Don’t tell me it can but you won’t tell me how until I calibrate my screen. There’s a lot about my situation you don’t know and really shouldn’t judge too hastily.

Thanks. And if this final plea yields no results, I’ll officially give up and just live with the problem.
JM
J_Maloney
May 13, 2008
Aren’t display settings user-specific? Can’t the OP calibrate the screen and have the a**hole gamer use another account? Maybe buy a $20 CRT as a second screen and calibrate that for color? Or just drop a brightness curve on the damn images when you’re done. I mean, this isn’t a color-critical workflow, obviously.

J
J
jyeager
May 13, 2008
Okay, looks like I’ll have to be more succinct.

"Is there a way to turn down the gamma in a non-destructive way inside Photoshop, and ONLY inside Photoshop? In other words, to calibrate Photoshop’s gamma levels differently from the rest of the desktop."

I am aware of other work-arounds, but those aren’t addressing the question as it was asked. I appreciate the good faith behind the alternative answers, but what I’d really like to have confirmed is whether or not — yes or no — there is a way to do exactly what I just described.

If the answer is no, then the answer is no. End of thread, no one gets hurt. 🙂
PF
Peter_Figen
May 14, 2008
Sure, just assign a false profile to all of your images. Save out alternative working spaces with higher gammas than the one you’re using now and either assign that to each image or set up your color settings to automatically assume that working space upon opening. I cringe as I write this because, although I know it will work, it’s really an expert workaround for specific difficult images and has the very real potential to get you so confused that you won’t know left from wrong.
C
Curvemeister
May 14, 2008
On Tue, 13 May 2008 05:11:59 -0700, Bob Levine wrote:

Mike,

Please turn off the autoquote. I’m a newsreader fan myself, but it really messes up the web view of things.

Thanks,

Bob

I logged onto the forum and everything looked fine – with quoted lines lining up nicely. I would like to accomodate everyone if possible. Can you be more specific?

Mike Russell – http://www.curvemeister.com
C
Curvemeister
May 14, 2008
On Tue, 13 May 2008 06:23:12 -0700, wrote:
….
Could you be more specific? I’ve already mentioned how going through every Working Space profile possible yielded no tangible results that I could see.
….
The goal is to use Photoshop to create several display profiles with a variety of lower gamma values, then use the windows control panel to assign each of them in turn to the display and visually determine which one you prefer.

I believe this will get the result that you want, making the image darker for color aware applications, namely Photoshop, without affecting other applications.

Here’s a video that should give you enough information:
http://www.curvemeister.com/video/greg/2008-05-13_1711.swf
Mike Russell – http://www.curvemeister.com
BL
Bob Levine
May 14, 2008
Can you be more specific?

From: http://www.adobe.com/support/forums/guidelines.html

Don’t quote previous messages. Only quote when absolutely necessary. Readers can easily view previous messages in their newsreader when needed. If your newsreader has a setting to toggle quoting on and off, set it to off.

Bob
C
Curvemeister
May 14, 2008
OK

Mike Russell – http://www.curvemeister.com
B
Buko
May 14, 2008
You can lose the SPAM line too.
DM
dave_milbut
May 14, 2008
agreed. especially when you see stuff like this:

"Photoshop CS3 Retail $276
Free Shipping, Full Version Limited Quantity, Windows Version "

<nudge nudge, wink wink>
J
jyeager
May 15, 2008
Interesting video, Mike Russell. Now if I’m working on CMYK files, would I repeat the process using the CMYK working space instead of RGB?
C
Curvemeister
May 16, 2008
On Thu, 15 May 2008 12:59:28 -0700, wrote:

For one thing, when I lowered the gamma setting in the new profile I created, the image became LIGHTER (??).

The procedure I’m suggesting is a display profile change, not a change to the image or its assigned working profile.

Then [I] went in my desktop color management
preferences, added the new 1.25 gamma profile, set it as default, and clicked OK… but this resulted in no change in Photoshop.

The problem may be that you need to also dismiss the Display properties dialog for the new profile to take hold. Photoshop will also need to be fronted before it will redraw after a display profile change.

CMYK, neither the RGB or CMYK working space profiles did *anything* to the open document.

I think I can at least clear this one up. Changing the working color space in color settings affects new images, and Phtooshop’s profile mismatch logic. It does not change the profile for currently opened images. Use "Assign Profile" for that.

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