BEST METHOD FOR CONVERTING TO B/W

M
Posted By
mel7777
Jul 15, 2011
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1458
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13
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Closed
Several books I’ve consulted say that Camera Raw’s conversion is better than using the Image/Adjustment/Black and White method in Photoshop.

Do you agree?

Mel

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S
Savageduck
Jul 15, 2011
On 2011-07-15 14:47:02 -0700, mel7777 said:

Several books I’ve consulted say that Camera Raw’s conversion is better than using the Image/Adjustment/Black and White method in Photoshop.

Do you agree?

Mel

Not really.
ACR gives you a "Convert to Grayscale" check box, and that is what you get, a conversion to grayscale. That does not necessarily produce the best B&W conversion.

Once you have made your ACR work flow adjustments (without going to grayscale) and opened in Photoshop you have a bunch of more effective methods available.

I would consider using the B&W Adjustment layer which does an adequate job, particularly after you have made any other adjustments, to curves, levels, saturation, shadows/highlights, etc. (of course those can be made in ACR).

See what you think;
< http://homepage.mac.com/lco/filechute/GS-BW-comp-02.jpg >


Regards,

Savageduck
TC
tony cooper
Jul 15, 2011
On Fri, 15 Jul 2011 16:24:05 -0700, Savageduck
<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

On 2011-07-15 14:47:02 -0700, mel7777 said:

Several books I’ve consulted say that Camera Raw’s conversion is better than using the Image/Adjustment/Black and White method in Photoshop.

Do you agree?

Mel

Not really.
ACR gives you a "Convert to Grayscale" check box, and that is what you get, a conversion to grayscale. That does not necessarily produce the best B&W conversion.

Once you have made your ACR work flow adjustments (without going to grayscale) and opened in Photoshop you have a bunch of more effective methods available.

I would consider using the B&W Adjustment layer which does an adequate job, particularly after you have made any other adjustments, to curves, levels, saturation, shadows/highlights, etc. (of course those can be made in ACR).

I don’t use a single procedure to convert color to black and white, but I usually (with black set to foreground and white to background) first try by using a gradient map adjustment layer and then tweaking the contrast. The black and white adjustment layer presents so many options that it gets confusing.

I never do a convert to grayscale or reduce saturation. The blacks aren’t black enough.


Tony Cooper – Orlando, Florida
S
Savageduck
Jul 15, 2011
On 2011-07-15 16:49:24 -0700, tony cooper said:

On Fri, 15 Jul 2011 16:24:05 -0700, Savageduck
<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

On 2011-07-15 14:47:02 -0700, mel7777 said:

Several books I’ve consulted say that Camera Raw’s conversion is better than using the Image/Adjustment/Black and White method in Photoshop.

Do you agree?

Mel

Not really.
ACR gives you a "Convert to Grayscale" check box, and that is what you get, a conversion to grayscale. That does not necessarily produce the best B&W conversion.

Once you have made your ACR work flow adjustments (without going to grayscale) and opened in Photoshop you have a bunch of more effective methods available.

I would consider using the B&W Adjustment layer which does an adequate job, particularly after you have made any other adjustments, to curves, levels, saturation, shadows/highlights, etc. (of course those can be made in ACR).

I don’t use a single procedure to convert color to black and white, but I usually (with black set to foreground and white to background) first try by using a gradient map adjustment layer and then tweaking the contrast.

That is a workable method.

The black and white adjustment layer presents so many
options that it gets confusing.

Not really. there are specific effects and each can work well, or not so good depending on the image to be converted.

I never do a convert to grayscale or reduce saturation. The blacks aren’t black enough.

Agreed.

Ultimately there is no one perfect method. One method might be great for image X and another downright awful.

….and then there is NIK Silver Efex Pro.


Regards,

Savageduck
TC
tony cooper
Jul 16, 2011
On Fri, 15 Jul 2011 16:55:16 -0700, Savageduck
<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

On 2011-07-15 16:49:24 -0700, tony cooper said:

On Fri, 15 Jul 2011 16:24:05 -0700, Savageduck
<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

On 2011-07-15 14:47:02 -0700, mel7777 said:

Several books I’ve consulted say that Camera Raw’s conversion is better than using the Image/Adjustment/Black and White method in Photoshop.

Do you agree?

Mel

Not really.
ACR gives you a "Convert to Grayscale" check box, and that is what you get, a conversion to grayscale. That does not necessarily produce the best B&W conversion.

Once you have made your ACR work flow adjustments (without going to grayscale) and opened in Photoshop you have a bunch of more effective methods available.

I would consider using the B&W Adjustment layer which does an adequate job, particularly after you have made any other adjustments, to curves, levels, saturation, shadows/highlights, etc. (of course those can be made in ACR).

I don’t use a single procedure to convert color to black and white, but I usually (with black set to foreground and white to background) first try by using a gradient map adjustment layer and then tweaking the contrast.

That is a workable method.

The black and white adjustment layer presents so many
options that it gets confusing.

Not really. there are specific effects and each can work well, or not so good depending on the image to be converted.

I’ve never figured out the system. The pairs start out equaling 100 (red plus yellow, etc), but if you hit "auto" that goes out the window.

I can make it work if there are not a lot of colors in the original, but the more colors the more it confuses me.
…and then there is NIK Silver Efex Pro.

Lightroom has some pre-sets.


Tony Cooper – Orlando, Florida
S
Savageduck
Jul 16, 2011
On 2011-07-15 17:21:26 -0700, tony cooper said:

On Fri, 15 Jul 2011 16:55:16 -0700, Savageduck
<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

On 2011-07-15 16:49:24 -0700, tony cooper said:

On Fri, 15 Jul 2011 16:24:05 -0700, Savageduck
<savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

On 2011-07-15 14:47:02 -0700, mel7777 said:

Several books I’ve consulted say that Camera Raw’s conversion is better than using the Image/Adjustment/Black and White method in Photoshop.

Do you agree?

Mel

Not really.
ACR gives you a "Convert to Grayscale" check box, and that is what you get, a conversion to grayscale. That does not necessarily produce the best B&W conversion.

Once you have made your ACR work flow adjustments (without going to grayscale) and opened in Photoshop you have a bunch of more effective methods available.

I would consider using the B&W Adjustment layer which does an adequate job, particularly after you have made any other adjustments, to curves, levels, saturation, shadows/highlights, etc. (of course those can be made in ACR).

I don’t use a single procedure to convert color to black and white, but I usually (with black set to foreground and white to background) first try by using a gradient map adjustment layer and then tweaking the contrast.

That is a workable method.

The black and white adjustment layer presents so many
options that it gets confusing.

Not really. there are specific effects and each can work well, or not so good depending on the image to be converted.

I’ve never figured out the system. The pairs start out equaling 100 (red plus yellow, etc), but if you hit "auto" that goes out the window.

I can make it work if there are not a lot of colors in the original, but the more colors the more it confuses me.
…and then there is NIK Silver Efex Pro.

Lightroom has some pre-sets.

Yup!
….and I have downloaded quite a few free LR presets from onOne Software and Matt Kloskowski’s Lightroom Killer Tips site: < http://lightroomkillertips.com/category/presets/ >


Regards,

Savageduck
N
nomail
Jul 16, 2011
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
On 2011-07-15 14:47:02 -0700, mel7777 said:

Several books I’ve consulted say that Camera Raw’s conversion is better than using the Image/Adjustment/Black and White method in Photoshop.
Do you agree?
Mel

Not really.
ACR gives you a "Convert to Grayscale" check box, and that is what you get, a conversion to grayscale. That does not necessarily produce the best B&W conversion.

ACR gives you much more than just a checkbox. After you’ve checked that box, you have lots of possibilities to tweak the resulting conversion by using sliders for each color. Go to the HSL tab. Apparently you’ve never noticed that. The options in ACR are very much like the options in Photoshop. In fact, there is little difference between your options in Photoshop and in ACR. In both cases you can adjust each individual color to get the result you want.

See what you think;
< http://homepage.mac.com/lco/filechute/GS-BW-comp-02.jpg >

That example merely shows that you’ve never taken the time to find out what you can do in ACR.


Johan W. Elzenga, Editor/Photographer, www.johanfoto.com
S
Savageduck
Jul 16, 2011
On 2011-07-16 02:15:34 -0700, Johan W. Elzenga said:

Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
On 2011-07-15 14:47:02 -0700, mel7777 said:

Several books I’ve consulted say that Camera Raw’s conversion is better than using the Image/Adjustment/Black and White method in Photoshop.
Do you agree?
Mel

Not really.
ACR gives you a "Convert to Grayscale" check box, and that is what you get, a conversion to grayscale. That does not necessarily produce the best B&W conversion.

ACR gives you much more than just a checkbox. After you’ve checked that box, you have lots of possibilities to tweak the resulting conversion by using sliders for each color. Go to the HSL tab. Apparently you’ve never noticed that. The options in ACR are very much like the options in Photoshop. In fact, there is little difference between your options in Photoshop and in ACR. In both cases you can adjust each individual color to get the result you want.

See what you think;
< http://homepage.mac.com/lco/filechute/GS-BW-comp-02.jpg >

That example merely shows that you’ve never taken the time to find out what you can do in ACR.

Actually if you read, and retained my entire response rather than snipping the two sentences following the one you retained and reacted to, you might have noticed I conceded that there was more to ACR than the grayscale check box. That check box is one I choose not to use. Here is what you edited so justify your response.:
"Once you have made your ACR work flow adjustments (without going to grayscale) and opened in Photoshop you have a bunch of more effective methods available.

I would consider using the B&W Adjustment layer which does an adequate job, particularly after you have made any other adjustments, to curves, levels, saturation, shadows/highlights, etc. (of course those can be made in ACR)."

Now in my case the work flow adjustments I usually make in ACR are, Camera Profile, enable Lens Profile, WB, an adjustment to the other nine elements of the basic panel as needed. Then depending of the demands of the image I will straighten and crop. From time to time I use the ACR Gradient tool, Noise reduction, & Post Crop Vignetting. For thee most part I am well aware of the possible remaining ACR adjustments I have not listed, including the "Grayscale" check box in the HSL/Grayscale panel, I just choose not to use them, which is not the same as your assumption that I "have never taken the time to find out what you can do in ACR."

As I remarked there are many ways of getting things done in CS5, and no one way is the best, but some are better than others.


Regards,

Savageduck
N
nomail
Jul 16, 2011
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
On 2011-07-16 02:15:34 -0700, Johan W. Elzenga said:

Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
See what you think;
< http://homepage.mac.com/lco/filechute/GS-BW-comp-02.jpg >

That example merely shows that you’ve never taken the time to find out what
you can do in ACR.

Actually if you read, and retained my entire response rather than snipping the two sentences following the one you retained and reacted to, you might have noticed I conceded that there was more to ACR than the grayscale check box. That check box is one I choose not to use.

And because you choose not to use it, you don’t seem to know that ACR offers virtually the same options that Photoshop offers for converting to B&W. Your example images clearly show that.

Here is what you edited so justify your response.:
"Once you have made your ACR work flow adjustments (without going to grayscale) and opened in Photoshop you have a bunch of more effective methods available.

And just how are they ‘more effective’ if they are virtually the same?

I would consider using the B&W Adjustment layer which does an adequate job, particularly after you have made any other adjustments, to curves, levels, saturation, shadows/highlights, etc. (of course those can be made in ACR).

I don’t argue with that, I only point out that you have the same B&W conversion options in ACR. Whatever you can do with a B&W adjustment layer, you can also do directly with ACR. The only exception is using layer masks, but you normally don’t use masks in a B&W adjustment layer.

Now in my case the work flow adjustments I usually make in ACR are, Camera Profile, enable Lens Profile, WB, an adjustment to the other nine elements of the basic panel as needed. Then depending of the demands of the image I will straighten and crop. From time to time I use the ACR Gradient tool, Noise reduction, & Post Crop Vignetting. For thee most part I am well aware of the possible remaining ACR adjustments I have not listed, including the "Grayscale" check box in the HSL/Grayscale panel, I just choose not to use them, which is not the same as your assumption that I "have never taken the time to find out what you can do in ACR."

I assume that because you posted two very misleading images. With these images you clearly suggest that you cannot make a decent B&W in ACR. And because that is clearly wrong, I assume you never took the time to find out how to do it in ACR. Even though I do not have the RAW file, I can tell you that while only using ACR it is quite possible to get the same B&W result as your image on the right.

As I remarked there are many ways of getting things done in CS5, and no one way is the best, but some are better than others.

True, so you should have stated that rather than suggesting that ACR is not a good method to convert to B&W by posting misleading images to ‘prove’ your point.

The original question was: "Several books I’ve consulted say that Camera Raw’s conversion is better than using the Image/Adjustment/Black and White method in Photoshop. Do you agree?" I d not necessarily agree that ACR is *better*, but I also don’t think that converting in Photoshop is that much better or ‘more effective’. It’s simply a different approach, and the end results are going to be very much the same (if you know how to do it properly in both programs). The real advantage of Photoshop is probably that you can save yourself a lot of time by using a specialized plugin such as Nik Silver Efex.


Johan W. Elzenga, Editor/Photographer, www.johanfoto.com
S
Savageduck
Jul 16, 2011
On 2011-07-16 07:58:31 -0700, Johan W. Elzenga said:

Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
On 2011-07-16 02:15:34 -0700, Johan W. Elzenga said:

Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
See what you think;
< http://homepage.mac.com/lco/filechute/GS-BW-comp-02.jpg >

That example merely shows that you’ve never taken the time to find out what
you can do in ACR.

Actually if you read, and retained my entire response rather than snipping the two sentences following the one you retained and reacted to, you might have noticed I conceded that there was more to ACR than the grayscale check box. That check box is one I choose not to use.

And because you choose not to use it, you don’t seem to know that ACR offers virtually the same options that Photoshop offers for converting to B&W. Your example images clearly show that.

How do you come to that conclusion just by viewing the comparison I posted? Just because I chose not to make B&W conversions with ACR, does not mean I am ignorant of the potential of ACR.

Here is what you edited so justify your response.:
"Once you have made your ACR work flow adjustments (without going to grayscale) and opened in Photoshop you have a bunch of more effective methods available.

And just how are they ‘more effective’ if they are virtually the same?

Maybe that was a tad hyperbolic of me.
I would consider using the B&W Adjustment layer which does an adequate job, particularly after you have made any other adjustments, to curves, levels, saturation, shadows/highlights, etc. (of course those can be made in ACR).

I don’t argue with that, I only point out that you have the same B&W conversion options in ACR. Whatever you can do with a B&W adjustment layer, you can also do directly with ACR. The only exception is using layer masks, but you normally don’t use masks in a B&W adjustment layer.

Don’t discount the use of layers when making image adjustments prior to B&W conversion in CS5.

Now in my case the work flow adjustments I usually make in ACR are, Camera Profile, enable Lens Profile, WB, an adjustment to the other nine elements of the basic panel as needed. Then depending of the demands of the image I will straighten and crop. From time to time I use the ACR Gradient tool, Noise reduction, & Post Crop Vignetting. For thee most part I am well aware of the possible remaining ACR adjustments I have not listed, including the "Grayscale" check box in the HSL/Grayscale panel, I just choose not to use them, which is not the same as your assumption that I "have never taken the time to find out what you can do in ACR."

I assume that because you posted two very misleading images. With these images you clearly suggest that you cannot make a decent B&W in ACR. And because that is clearly wrong, I assume you never took the time to find out how to do it in ACR. Even though I do not have the RAW file, I can tell you that while only using ACR it is quite possible to get the same B&W result as your image on the right.

Maybe, maybe not.
As I remarked there are many ways of getting things done in CS5, and no one way is the best, but some are better than others.

True, so you should have stated that rather than suggesting that ACR is not a good method to convert to B&W by posting misleading images to ‘prove’ your point.

Actually my point is ACR is not the better method of B&W conversion, as proposed in the several books consulted by the OP.
Going to "grayscale" or "desaturating" in ACR is just as unsatisfactory as in any other photo editor. 😉

The original question was: "Several books I’ve consulted say that Camera Raw’s conversion is better than using the Image/Adjustment/Black and White method in Photoshop. Do you agree?" I d not necessarily agree that ACR is *better*, but I also don’t think that converting in Photoshop is that much better or ‘more effective’. It’s simply a different approach, and the end results are going to be very much the same (if you know how to do it properly in both programs). The real advantage of Photoshop is probably that you can save yourself a lot of time by using a specialized plugin such as Nik Silver Efex.

All of your points are noted. However as much as I appreciate all that ACR provides it is not my image editor of choice. It is a part of my Bridge-ACR-CS5 workflow, and the bulk of my work is done in CS5. I didn’t pay for my original CS2 and various upgrades just to have access to ACR and ignore CS5.

….and the specialized plug-ins can play a useful part in streamlining workflow.


Regards,

Savageduck
TC
tony cooper
Jul 16, 2011
On Sat, 16 Jul 2011 09:58:31 -0500, Johan W. Elzenga
wrote:

I assume that because you posted two very misleading images. With these images you clearly suggest that you cannot make a decent B&W in ACR.

Shades of the "Lauren" saga!

You should know, Duck, that you have to compare specs if you present t a qualitative scenario.


Tony Cooper – Orlando, Florida
S
Savageduck
Jul 16, 2011
On 2011-07-16 08:51:38 -0700, tony cooper said:

On Sat, 16 Jul 2011 09:58:31 -0500, Johan W. Elzenga
wrote:

I assume that because you posted two very misleading images. With these images you clearly suggest that you cannot make a decent B&W in ACR.

Shades of the "Lauren" saga!

You should know, Duck, that you have to compare specs if you present t a qualitative scenario.

OK! Tony, send me an image of a sword so I can impale myself on it.


Regards,

Savageduck
N
nomail
Jul 16, 2011
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
How do you come to that conclusion just by viewing the comparison I posted? Just because I chose not to make B&W conversions with ACR, does not mean I am ignorant of the potential of ACR.

Either you are ignorant, or you were deliberately misleading the OP into believing that ACR is far worse than Photoshop. Your example photos cannot lead me to any other conclusion.

Actually my point is ACR is not the better method of B&W conversion, as proposed in the several books consulted by the OP.

We agree on that. However, ‘not better’ is not the same as misleadingly trying to ‘prove’ that it’s much worse. It’s a matter of personal choice which method you prefer.


Johan W. Elzenga, Editor/Photographer, www.johanfoto.com
S
Savageduck
Jul 16, 2011
On 2011-07-16 10:49:46 -0700, Johan W. Elzenga said:

Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:
How do you come to that conclusion just by viewing the comparison I posted? Just because I chose not to make B&W conversions with ACR, does not mean I am ignorant of the potential of ACR.

Either you are ignorant, or you were deliberately misleading the OP into believing that ACR is far worse than Photoshop. Your example photos cannot lead me to any other conclusion.

Ignorant of the potential of the current version of ACR I am not. I might have overstated my preference for making B&W conversions in CS5.

Actually my point is ACR is not the better method of B&W conversion, as proposed in the several books consulted by the OP.

We agree on that. However, ‘not better’ is not the same as misleadingly trying to ‘prove’ that it’s much worse. It’s a matter of personal choice which method you prefer.

In that case let us agree that fundamentally neither is "better" and leave it to personal choice.


Regards,

Savageduck

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