Why would you define the product activation as a lose-lose situation?
Adobe doesn’t require you to sign away your firstborn, give up a limb or two, or make a pact with the devil or anything. You click a few buttons and its done.
Why should I give any software house more information that I want? Why should I let them know how often I change my kit, or move the program from one machine to another?
Tim
All activation does is make it harder/impossible to "casually" pirate the software – you know, install it on your friends’ and your brother-in-law’s machines as well as your own. Many of us may have gotten used to this sort of sharing over the years, but Adobe, like any other corporation, is in business to make money, and as part of that effort is closing off as many leaks in the revenue stream as they can.
You would do the same if it was your company. Things aren’t as much fun for the end user as they used to be, but that’s life in the big, capitalist city.
Enforcing the EULA is the software producer’s right. As so many end users treat the rules casually, Adobe – and others – have little choice if they want to continue doing business. And it is, as Robert points out, a very small inconvenience to set up activation.
It’s a nicer approach than the RIAA has taken. Be grateful.
Because that’s the only way it’s going to work, that’s why. Stop being so damned paranoid. This activation scare is absolutely ridiculous. You’d think Adobe had installed spy cams in your bedroom.
Bob
I do work for a software company, and am certainly not happy about piracy – I’ve reported commercial scams to other companies more than once. The only intallations which activation catches, that would mean more revenue for Adobe, is the businesses that fudge licenses; those that want the program but won’t pay for it will find a way to circumvent. The rest of us will just let our privacy be eroded a grain at a time.
Tim
Robert, it isn’t going to work that way, either. Take a cruise on the net, and you’ll find programs broken before they’re released.
Tim
it’s anonymous according to their description of it.
The rest of us will just let our privacy be eroded a grain at a time.
You’ve been watching too many movies. Just exactly how does this invade your privacy?
Bob
Tim,
I work at a company that has dozens of Photoshop licenses in this building alone, and many more elsewhere. There is very strict management of license use here, and there are frequent spot checks on a random basis to make sure nothing fishy is going on. There is no fudging going on here. If there are more seats than licenses, we buy more licenses.
There may in fact be corporate license fraud taking place, but not at the major studios. We have way too much to lose to play games.
What individual home users do with their software has always been harder to control – until now. I think it’s about time.
Hi Dave,
sure, this one is anonymous, but when this scheme doesn’t work…
You’re still forced to feed their data gathering group. One of the major problems with any market research is how skewed the data source is, if they enforce global response, you’re forced to be in a marketing data pool whether you want to or not… well, your option is not to buy.
Tim
Tim,
It’s not YOU that’s in a marketing data pool, it’s your machine. Nobody knows – or cares – who you are at Adobe.
Hi Dennis,
I’ve also seen licenses passed within companies with the understanding that they’ll be made ligit, sometime. I agree that the casual user’s passing copies is a leakage that we’d like to stop, but wonder if this is 1) a reasonable answer, and 2) one that works.
Tim
Hi Dennis,
but I’m the one that is buying and reconfiguring my machines. As tied as I am to my machines, it’s hard to tell the difference, sometimes.
Tim
Tim wrote:
sure, this one is anonymous, but when this scheme doesn’t work…
Your comment here counts as FUD: Fear, Uncertainty, & Doubt. You’re complaining about stuff that’s not decided yet and may not ever happen. Come on.
~Hanford
Our company is so freaked about licensing that a recent audit turned up over 9500 licenses for an MS project planner when we only have about 3000 people using it. Instead of using the unused/turned over (layoff, job change, etc) licenses, they were just ordering new ones every time someone needed a copy. Sheesh. Talk about waste!
At least the money went to a good cause.
Hi Hanford,
worry about it now, or worry about it later, and I’ll self-censor before I get into a political discussion. I don’t think that Adobe, or Macromedia, or Microsoft, are going to realise expected revenue from these schemes, nor do I think that they’ll back off instead of turning the screws tighter.
Tim
Tim,
"I don’t think that Adobe, or Macromedia, or Microsoft, are going to realise expected revenue from these schemes, nor do I think that they’ll back off instead of turning the screws tighter."
I think you’re wrong here. Windows XP saw record sales and revenue for Microsoft, not an easy feat considering how much that company makes on most of their products, despite the much maligned product activation. I suspect a great part of these record sales were people finally realizing the game was up and if they wanted to use XP they had to pay for its use. I was part of the original Office 2000 activation beta test and currently use Windows XP. To this day I have had absolutely no problems with either and I still use Office 2000 (so much for the "forced upgrade gravy train" conspiracy theory) to this day. Product activation works for its intended prupose, casual copying of software whether it be for home or business use, and it is for this reason that Adobe considered using it for their new Creative Suite applications.
Will be interesting to see how things play out for Adobe and Macromedia.
The Windows gravy train is new computer sales. That doesn’t apply to Adobe and Macromedia.
Adobe’s gravy is probably from corporate users, and the Q/A on activation says it’s not needed for corporate licenses.
Maybe we individual purchasers are not significant to the revenue stream.
But I’m voting with my few dollars — against activation. I’ll stick with Photoshop 7, just as I’ve stuck with Windows 2000.
Would be nice to have the new features. But I want to be in control of my computer.
But I want to be in control of my computer.
Just exactly how do you lose control of your computer. I have WinXP, Office XP and I can assure you that I remain firmly in contol of my PC.
You are simply paranoid.
Bob
I prefer to think that my paranoia is complex … nuanced …
I’m not in control of my computer if I can’t go off to a mountain shack, crank up my generator, install my software on my computer, and run it without phoning home.
Now, if I could just figure out how to pay for that mountain shack. And the generator.
Well, for me it’s a severe impact.
Look, I know that the license says that you can install it on two machines as long as it’s not being used concurrently. I never use photoshop concurrently, but I also have never had it on only two machines. I want it on the machine I want it on when I want it there so I can do my work. I’ve upheld the spirit of the license agreement in that, I’m the only one using it, no one else does, and I’m not giving my $600 program to any-friggin’-body because it’s mine, I paid, and so should you.
So technically, I’ve been in violation of the license from day one because I have it on more than one machine – but I’ve honored the spirit of the agreement in that my practices have not robbed Adobe of one red cent. No one uses them except me. Now that license requirements are enforceable, it takes on a different twist.
Okay, so now, I’m the ONLY person who uses it, but I have to get approval to change my mind on which machine it should run?
Let’s say for the sake of argument, that I install it on a single destop in my office. Then I uninstall it and move over to the CD Duplication area (clean room) and I install it there. Now I have to be activated again, no big deal right? So now I need to move over to the packaging area and load up the packager. While I’m waiting for it to run and finish the job, I want to load my photoshop and do some work. But I have to get THAT activated as well. But I’ve already received two activations, so now I have to call to get permission? What if they don’t believe me? Then, in effect, Adobe is forcing me to work in my office or in the clean room, but not allowing me to work in the packaging area.
Or, what happens when you install it on the company laptop, and then change jobs? You get a new job and want to install it on that laptop – you need permission?
All I can say is, it’s neither paranoia, nor painless in some circumstances.
The only information which is ‘gathered’ is what you would supply them with if you registered your program (you did register your copy with Adobe, surely??). All the activation is doing is making sure that the registration information fits with the licencee. Activation takes a mere two or three seconds if done online (although it might be slightly slower in the first week of the official release due to the sheer volume of folk activating their copy(ies).
The activation has been successfully trialed in Australia for later version of PS7 and worked extremely well apparently. There really isn’t any need to get worried about it (unless you have promised to share your copy with several friends).
—
Carol
(Posted from the UK)
The degree of inconvenience depends on the way the activation program identifies the computer. Adobe says you can upgrade or change the operating system, system board or processor. How about disk drives? I swap disks in and out of modular drive bays, to keep major projects together. Likewise with CD and DVD burners. Does anyone know if that will be a problem?
<Spragens>; wrote in message
After dredging through the marketese on Pshop CS, I find that there are a couple of new features that I’d like to have, they’ve even got an enticing upgrade that would land me a couple of nice-to-have, though not needed programs in a "suite" deal. The product activation has soured it for me, though. What are my options? 1) Bend over and let Adobe have its way (painful). 2) Stick with version 7, which works well for me (Adobe gains no revenue, I don’t get the new features). 3) Wait until there’s a code hack, then buy (Adobe doesn’t get the clue, they do get the revenue, I get the features).
None of the above sound like a win-win to me.
Tim
YrbkMgr’s point holds true for at least some home environments, too.
I have a one-person household with five computers (four on a KVM switch, the fifth in a separate room running as a print server). I’m the only one running programs on the computers, and I don’t run the same program at the same time on multiple computers (spirit of the license). But I want the flexibility of running programs from whatever box or boxes I happen to have turned on at a paticular time (not necessarily the letter of the license).
I also build and rebuild boxes quite a bit.
So activation is a practical issue for me.
But I’m more concerned about it in principle … and about the way it fits in with the related schemes that are at various stages of development (palladium at the CPU level and hard drives with embedded DRM controls, to mention a couple of examples that have gotten quite a bit of press).
Thanks for the reassurance, Carol, but I’ll stick with hardware and software that leave me in control.
but I’ll stick with hardware and software that leave me in control<
In what way does activation not leave you in control John???
Do you completely rebuild your computer more than once every 1½ months??? If you do, then you would need to get in contact with Adobe to explain your situation – not a biggie really. You can still run it on two machines (provided you don’t run the program simultaneously). I honestly can’t even begin to understand why you would be prepared to forego the vast improvements on offer in the new version – the reasons which you are citing just don’t stand up to any arguement.
Sorry – just my point of view.
—
Carol
(Posted from the UK)
In article wrote:
Why should I give any software house more information that I want? Why should I let them know how often I change my kit, or move the program from one machine to another?
Activation is not the same as Registration.
Please see
http://www.adobe.com/activation/ for more info.
Registration is optional and where you supply information and you can opt in to allow use of that data for marketing purposes.
Activation is required to use the software and does not exchange any personal or other information other than the serial number supplied with the software.
–marc
If I need this software I have to stick with the requierements of the company who owns that Software. I get only a license to use it.
Robert you sayd: " I can assure you that I remain firmly in contol of my PC."
Not me. XP Pro produces 2-5 pop ups every day. Or is it the DSL from Verizon I just installed?
Well, I’m using Verizon DSL and have been for almost four years along with XP Pro. No problems.
Bob
No Pop ups? Just got an other one asking me to buy a program to get rid of them. Very annoying!
You may be connecting through verizon’s software – you don’t need to do that to connect. I used to use Earthlink’s, I got a DSL router to share the internet connection and never had to use their "Enternet" connection software again.
And XP has built in PPPOE support. But go for the router.
Bob
Thanks I will look into this.
Ok, what happens if your whole system is trashed and you have to reformat your hd and reinstall. That does occur every once in a while to a fair amount of users. Will Adobe believe you when you go crying to them? Remains to be seen. How can you prove it? You buy the sw upgrade or entire package and then risk losing your investment. Personally, I am not deliriously happy with this Activation solution.
Nina – you just call Customer Support and explain the problem, they’ll help you.
Oliver,
If you can’t figure out the real reason behind activation technology by now then maybe it is time to turn your computer off.
Activation technology doesn’t do anything to stop piracy or even slow it down. It never has and never will. It is a way for companies to control you. It is a way to force upgrades when their bank accounts run low. It is a way in a few years when enough people have moved to broadband to fix it so when you pay $600 for your Photoshop license that it buys you a 1 year deal to use the software at which time (with a bit of tweaking) you pay another $600 for another year of use.
It all comes down to a way for companies to get money one demand. Basically we all become ATMs for software companies except the usage fee we pay isn’t $1.50.
With Copyright laws and license agreements twisted to benefit the companies, with lack luster upgrades riddled with bugs, with companies as greedy for as much profit as possible above all else and when the technology costs a ton to develop and support it isn’t done to stop you from sharing a copy of something with your grandma. Anyone that thinks it is has been very well brain washed.
Robert
Bend over Bob, in a few years time there will be a nasty surprise headed for your backdoor! If you can’t see it coming by now get to an eye doctor as fast as you can.
Robert
Johnson,
Impossible, hard please. Just like with Windows XP, Office XP, Macromedia Studio MX, Symantec Products, Intuit Products and all of the others with activation no sooner will the product hit the street and there will be a dozen of more cracks available to turn it off.
Adobe and other companies are just hoping that enough cattle will be led to slaughter that it pays off. It probably will.
Robert
Robert Barnett,
"It is a way for companies to control you. It is a way to force upgrades when their bank accounts run low."
That’s funny. Was Microsoft supposed to send their goon squad out to my house when Office XP came out because they never showed. Let me check a sec…nope, not at the door and all my Office 2000 apps still work just fine. Basically what I’m trying to say is you’re full of it.
"With Copyright laws and license agreements twisted to benefit the companies, with lack luster upgrades riddled with bugs, with companies as greedy for as much profit as possible above all else…blah blah blah…[standard slashbot rant]…blah blah blah."
That’s odd, my copy of the US Code doesn’t mention anything about this. In fact Title 17 still seems to be relatively the same thing that was passed about thity years ago. The DMCA you say? You should read it again and I mean you personally, not the hyped up crap written by people with extremely tight tinfoil hats on you find rampaging around the internet masquerading as fact. I think you’ll find this document doesn’t have nearly the teeth it’s made out to have.
Seems pertinent at this point…
YrbkMgr "Macromedia MX Product Activation" 9/20/03 12:01am </cgi-bin/webx?14/39>
Me thinks the word paranoid is going to be used quite a bit over the next few days.
Bob
I don’t think it’s Paranoia at all. Read the link I posted about Macromedia activation. Can we not see what’s happening? Or is it more "aw… that’ll never happen" ?
It’s about domination and control. That isn’t to say it wouldn’t go on forever unchecked, but how long did it take before Ma Bell broke up? Once you control the market, the only people you answer to are the government – of course, they’re above influence with special interest monies…
Activation technology doesn’t do anything to stop piracy or even slow it down. It never has and never will. It is a way for companies to control you.
Just exactly how am I being controled by MS, Adobe or Intuit?
It is a way to force upgrades when their bank accounts run low.
Again, how are they forcing anyone to upgrade?
you pay $600 for your Photoshop license that it buys you a 1 year deal to use the software at which time (with a bit of tweaking) you pay another $600 for another year of use.
They will charge what the market will bear. I don’t see 600.00 per year as anything near that.
It all comes down to a way for companies to get money one demand. Basically we all become ATMs for software companies except the usage fee we pay isn’t $1.50.
You have one hell of an imagination, I’ll say that for you.
Anyone that thinks it is has been very well
brain washed.
I think someone has been brainwashed. Sheesh. Everybody run…the sky is falling.
Bob
I, for one, welcome our activation masters.
Tony, look at it this way: instead of five so-so computers, you can buy one super double-deluxe portable, and a little cart to wheel it around.
ATT was broken up because there was no competition. That’s not the case here. There’s Mac vs. Windows. Macromedia, Corel and Adobe all create very useable graphic software. And as much most of us don’t like them, there’s always Quark.
How can you possibly compare the ATT case with this?
Bob
The next step will be: You must go on line and work the software from a server at some mirror sites around the world and pay by the hour. It’s comming!
Sure. And all of our data will be stored in some big encrypted proprietary database run by Microsoft. What’ll they call it Longhorn or something?
Will somebody please kill this thread and nip any future tinfoil hat conspiracy threads in the bud as soon as they spring up? It’s clear there are the rational folks who think activation will go as smoothly as it did for Office 2000 and Windows XP and then there are the nut jobs who are going to play chicken little all day long, not wanting to listen to reason. I think it’s quite evident and nothing will be resolved by continuing this or any future threads on this topic.
but I’ll stick with hardware and software that leave me in control
Unless you programmed the software yourself, and built the machines from the ground up (manufacturing every part), you are never really in control. You are always ceding some level of control to someone else, and product activation is no different.
Stuart,
Not everyone who doesn’t agree with your point of view is a nut job. If you’re contention is to just "shut up, this is the way it is", then shut up, this is the way it is.
I don’t like activation, I don’t like what it may lead to one little bit. You wanna call it chicken little, fine – if you’re entitled to your opinion, I’m entitled to mine.
I don’t know that it will ever go to the extremes, but to not consider the possibility is, well, short-sighted. And just because you can’t see how activation may affect the workflow and work habits of others, does not negate issues that exist for some folks.
I don’t care what who knows about my systems – it’s not that bit at all. It’s the myriad of other issues. So please, if you don’t like what’s being said, then just don’t read it.
Tony,
What I object to are the wold speculation as if 1984 is coming to pass before our very eyes. It didn’t happen with Microsoft activation and it won’t happen with Adobe. With an attitude like yours I can only suggest one thing; go hide in the caves and start fearing the elements again. I’d prefer you do this sooner rather than later so I can avoid your ridiculous postulations and crying wolf. Activation is here to stay and you can either purchase Photoshop with it in or you won’t. I’m guessing most people won’t care and all your speculating will be for naught.
Anyone would think, reading this thread, that M$ invented activation and Adobe et al are joining their club. Lots of "serious" business software [i.e. stuff costing $10000 or more per seat] has been using "license control" mechanisms for many years.
I work for a software company [not Adobe or M$], but we don’t sell software. None of these companies do. We sell licenses to use software. That’s what/all you have purchased. Such a license may be perpetual [as Adobe’s are at the moment] or may be time/usage limited. What’s wrong with that?
Consider the analogy of renting/leasing a car. Do you expect to be able to do anything you like with the thing? No, you expect [reasonable] restrictions.
Yes, licensing mechanisms are often inconvenient, but that’s the price we pay for being part of the Human race. Personally, I would not choose to use them. The penalties in most Western countries for software piracy are quite high enough. As a software vendor, I’d accept that illegal copies may be made, but those folks would never have bought the software anyway. So the number of users is increased and the software’s position in the market is strengthened. Simple eh? Simple ideas are always the best.
I actually used to think that Adobe were amongst the most progressive and sensible publishers with their approach to licensing (i.e. don’t add anything that may potentially irritate paying customers just to annoy pirates who’ll get around the system in any event).
Guess I was wrong.
As a software vendor, I’d accept that illegal copies may be made, but those folks would never have bought the software anyway. So the number of users is increased and the software’s position in the market is strengthened. Simple eh? Simple ideas are always the best.
Same opinion here. And one day, those folks will apply for a job equip with their knowledge learned from the pirated softwares. Piracy helps those folks to get a job, companies who hired them make a lot of savings of not training people, software vendors benefit from it as their product became known to a lot of users especially if the products were really good. Aren’t it good that even struggling artists or photographers knew how to use graphic/imaging softwares?
Mastery of the softwares cannot be learned in school especially in third world countries. And in these places, piracy is doing some good service to the people as well as to the software vendor. Well, today, vendor sells and very seldom trains the buyer. There are some good things in piracy that are worth it.
Don’t get me wrong, I am against piracy but accepted the fact.
And yes, I am not for software activation. Just couldn’t imagine how many times that my Windows system would crash after installing a new product. Or how many worms would try to shut down my XP in a year. I already re-installed my XP twice and If ever a worm attack my system again, I will go back to my W2k.
What I object to are the wold speculation as if 1984 is coming to pass before our very eyes. It didn’t happen with Microsoft activation and it won’t happen with Adobe. With an attitude like yours I can only suggest one thing; go hide in the caves and start fearing the elements again. I’d prefer you do this sooner rather than later so I can avoid your ridiculous postulations and crying wolf.
Stuart, if you had bothered to read any of his posts, you’d realize Tony doen’t fall into the big brother, the sky is falling camp. He has a real problem and his entire workflow is going to need to be re-worked. That’s not pie in the sky sciene fiction. It’s fact. You’re shouting at the wrong chicken little.
Eco
You seem to appreciate my views perfectly. Thanks!
you pay $600 for your Photoshop license that it buys you a 1 year deal
to use the software at which time (with a bit of tweaking) you pay another $600 for another year of use.<
Utter drivel and scaremongering.
You can carry on using Photoshop CS for as long as you like – whether it is 5, 10 or 20 years old. Nobody (even Adobe) will force you into upgrading it.
Photoshop upgrades generally have an 18-20 month cycle, so there will be nothing to upgrade to during that time period.
Provided that you are running a legit copy, then the next version of Photoshop will be around $150 (same as it has always been) – if you are paying for a new full version each time, then that is purely your decision (and fault).
—
Carol
(Posted from the UK)
I don’t think it is worth killing at the moment Stuart – people have all sorts of rational (and irrational) fears about Adobe’s activation policy and so it is best that there are one or two threads dealing with these issues. To block them off at this point in time would mean than countless more would be propagated here.
Hopefully a few rational voices explaining Adobe’s activation policy will help quell the mass hysteria. I suspect that the majority of legit Photoshop users will welcome Activation – because it really is painless. —
Carol
(Posted from the UK)
Eco,
The problem isn’t as much the home user that nabs a copy from his friend, it’s the small businesses that purchase one copy of Photoshop then oufit their entire design department with it. Activation will put a crimp in this practice and design firms will either have to purchase legitimare copies of Photoshop or buy something else. Either way, it’s time for them to lay out some cash and they can either get the application most design firms are using and that most designers know or they can hope that another app will be sufficient.
Dave,
His whole workflow? You mean he might have to purchase the requisite number of licenses? Oh, I feel so bad for him. Spirit of the law will not get you very far in court and if you break the contract you agreed to I have absolutely no sympathy for you. Yeah, we’d all like to be condiered specil cases and have out needs personally catered to but that isn’t going to happen and we shouldn’t expect it to.
Stuart,
His whole workflow? You mean he might have to purchase the requisite number of licenses? Oh, I feel so bad for him.
You’ve demonstrated your supreme understanding of the situation.
And CS gas is tear gas, not nerve gas. And it hurts like hell! I wouldn’t recommend it.
~Em
Hi All,
a few notes on what has passed since my absence to sleep and work:
Stuart: the XP stats have been skewed, because this is was the first release that included both the Pro and Home editions (with all the others) under a single umbrella.
Marc: no matter what you say we are sending, we really don’t know. We’ve got a reciprocity failure here – you say you don’t trust us, so we have to trust you more; I don’t like either implication. Why not just ship the product with a hardware dongle, as much of a pain as those are, rather than trying to turn my computer into a dongle? That would give Tony the flexibility that he wants, though he’d have to put the dongle on his keyring (and remember the ring when he went home).
Carol: no hysteria on my part, I’m just being forced to swallow something I really don’t like – eat your turnips or go to bed hungry.
Emma: thanks for the correction. I’ve never had the pleasure, and hope I never do. Maybe tear gas is more apt, though either work in this case.
Tim
We will see Carol. If you can’t see the greed in the computer industry, Hollywood and the music industry you are blind. Just remember in a few years when all of this happens you can’t say you all weren’t warned.
Robert
Hello Carol
It looks like we in the UK will be paying UKP125 or 208USD, as well as sales tax.
I would really love to pay 150USD.
Mike Engles
What do you think will happen in a few years when Microsoft ends support for Windows XP or Office XP? Do you think you will still be able to activate it? No. Of course there will be law suites filled and Microsoft will when. Once that hurdle has been cleared you can bet Adobe, Macromedia and everyone else will start forcing upgrades. It isn’t going to happen in the next year or so but it will happen. Mark my words.
Robert
I doubt it Robert. A case can be made for activation in the area of piracy prevention, but justification for its use becomes less defensible on the basis of forced upgrades. I think any software producer would realize that this would mean the end of users upgrading their product, and the end of their revenue stream. Consider the uproar that activation is causing for even legitimate anti-piracy reasons – using activation to force upgrades would spell doom for the producers. It’s not likely that this scenario will play out as you describe.
One person who’s followed trends in software licensing carefully over the years is Ed Foster, former managing editor and columnist at InfoWorld. He now has his own site at <
http://www.gripe2ed.com/>. It’s worth checking out — especially his coverage through the years of "sneakwrap" licensing. A Google search for "Ed Foster" and "sneakwrap" will lead you to some of his old InfoWorld columns on the subject.
I don’t think Adobe has made his hall of shame, and I hope they never do. But they’re being shoved and tugged by the same industry-wide forces that are moving the companies he mentions.
but justification for its use becomes less defensible on the basis of forced upgrades
And John’s link is exactly at the heart of the issue. Ridiculous licensing terms have been upheld in the courts, because "you agreed". Now that there’s enforcement, you can be forced to "wear bunny slippers" to quote r_Harvey.
Sure, one day, there will be licensing police that will make sure all software authors abide by the rules of what you can and what you cannot force users to do through licensing. But until that day, the trend is for the courts to side with software authors in restricting users.
Henny Penny? Bah! Captialism.
Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security.
My copy of XP came with my computer. As long as I only install it on this machine (or a similar model Dell) it doesn’t require activation.
And I still say worrying about that is nothing short of paranoia. You’re looking too far ahead and assuming too much.
Bob
Greed? Why because they want you to pay for their product? Are the deparment stores greedy for putting anti-shoplifting tags on all their products?
Bob
Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security.
As someone who was in the the lobby of Two World Trade Center when a plane flew into Tower One on the morning of September 11, 2001 I find comparing software piracy to freedom and security just a bit offensive.
Bob
Robert,
You bring up a good point I meant to mention. Activation isn’t much of an issue for those who have any form of OEM installation.
I find comparing software piracy to freedom and security just a bit offensive.
No one is comparing piracy to freedom and security. That’s the problem. You automatically assume that if one is against product activation that they have something to hide – I find that offensive.
And I maintain my remark about freedom and security – I don’t care where you were on Sept 11th. If, based on that, you are willing to give up your freedom, your rights as an American, and allow the government to invade your constitutional privacy so that you can have piece of mind, then we fundamentally disagree.
You automatically assume that if one is against product activation that they have something to hide – I find that offensive.
We are assumed to be guilty until proven innocent.
We’ve explored this theme several times in this forum and in the Photoshop Lounge. I’m not going to revisit it, because I’m not interested in exchanging personal attacks.
I really find some of the Adobe respondents to be amazing; good PR people for their user base….Yes, there probably is some paranoia here, but I also believe there are some valid issues. If Adobe wishes to take a blind eye to what some of their users are talking about, it will not serve them in the end. I have seen a lot of retail companies fail because they thought they knew better what their customers needed, or rather, could jam down their throat. After all, the customer is stupid, right.
None of us have a computer with one piece of software on our system other than the OS. As we migrate and deal with reactivation schemes different from every vendor, it is a grim world. As we deal with larger programs and larger files and redundancy issues, it is a grim world. As we deal with software companies who pare back operating costs by reducing staffing in support groups, it is an even more grim world. So, in 6 months, a year or two years from now when we try to contact the support group and explain why we need reactivation we can only hope there is someone to talk to. But I suppose by then we will have been forced into another upgrade.
So keep up the good PR. It’s helping your cause.
Earl,
"But I suppose by then we will have been forced into another upgrade."
Name ONE time you have been forced to upgrade software?
Adobe seems to be assuming that the normal punters are thieves, but then corporations are courts unto themselves, in their own realms, and napoleonic law seems to suit their interests.
Tim
Name ONE time you have been forced to upgrade software?
When new applications refuse to support existing operating systems.
I suspect that there would be too much user outrage for Adobe to do this, but some software is leased on a time-limited basis. At one of my jobs, we use a database software specifically designed for our type of business. We pay a monthly license fee to the software company. Once a month they fax us the password to get into our software and once a year they send us a new security file that updates the passwords for the year.
From sitting in on similar discussions at a different software company, I’m not sure I’d say the working assumption is that normal punters are thieves.
But I do think there’s a farily common assumption that pirated copies represent revenue lost … and that schemes such as activation will turn the pirates into honest, paying customers.
I think both assumptions are unwarranted.
I think (though I can’t prove) that many people who use priated software would just do without or would turn to different programs if they were blocked from using the pirated warez. I think most of these folks are *not* a potential revenue source.
And I doubt that the activation schemes are invulnerable, a point others have made in these discussions.
r_harvey
"When new applications refuse to support existing operating systems."
Were you forced to get either the new OS or new software? You made a conscious choice to purchase the new OS and/or software. Sure, the new bells and whistles of newer versions of software can be very temtping but in no way have you EVER been FORCED to get either.
I’m sorry, I won’t take the bait or exchange personal comments.
Have a nice day.
Ok, I’ll bite. Do we get Adobe’s written promise that we will NEVER be forced to convert in the future. Do we get Adobe’s written promise here and now that we users will not be forced to convert through an unsupported version with activation, ie., will we ALWAYS be able to receive support and activation approval for hardware migration from Adobe?
Earl,
No, you don’t and if you expect to than you are an idiot. My reccomendation to you would be to purchase Canvas or Corel PhotoPaint and save yourself the headache of worrying about this non-issue.
Ok, I’ll bite. Do we get Adobe’s written promise that we will NEVER be forced to convert in the future. Do we get Adobe’s written promise here and now that we users will not be forced to convert through an unsupported version with activation, ie., will we ALWAYS be able to receive support and activation approval for hardware migration from Adobe?
Thank you….
I rest my case….
If the show fits, wear it….
Because they want you to pay over and over and over for software that often times has more bugs than a flea circus.
As for department store anti-shoplifting tags. Well, once you buy the product it is yours. You don’t have to register it every time you where and there is no coin slot that you have to put money in to every time you go to put it one. There isn’t one with software now but the way things are going it is coming and so is the forcing of upgrades when a companies decided it is time.
Isn’t it funny that it all comes down to them making more money. Which to me is greed. Otherwise they would be happy with people paying $600 for the product and using it as long as they wanted.
As I said none of this will happen until Microsoft clears it out in court. They are currently the only company with they money and balls to do this. It is coming for Office XP with the new version out soon and it will come with Windows. There will be law suites. Microsoft will win, once that has happened all of the companies with activation technology will start forcing upgrades and as soon as enough people have broadband so that there systems are online 24/7 subscription software will be next. The foundation will be there thanks to the activation technology.
Just wait. You may think I am paranoid, crazy or whatever. But, it is coming. 5 or 6 years. By that time all of the cattle will have been branded and trained and it will be too late to stop them.
Robert
Sure it working now. But how do you know Microsoft can send a trigger to you to stop it from working? You don’t. You just assume that they can’t, won’t and that it would be illegal.
Companies including Adobe have already shown that they can deactivate serial numbers. Of all companies to put your trust in you choose Microsoft? Now that is crazy.
What happens when you install a new CPU or motherboard or have to reinstall Windows? No activation as it has been turned off for the no longer supported product and wham, bam you are forced to upgrade. Well all know with Microsoft software it isn’t WILL I have to reinstall but WHEN.
Robert
Dennis,
It doesn’t do anything to stop piracy. Go to any of the crack Usenet groups and look. There are more cracks, and cracked versions of Windows XP and Office XP than you can shake a stick at.
There is already at least 12 cracks for Macromedia Studio MX 2004. Not to mention the ones for Quicken and Symantec products.
The cracks for Office XP and Windows XP were out before the product hit store shelves. Activation DOES NOTHING to slow or stop piracy. Just like all other copy protection schemes used since the beginning have proven useless.
What companies are hoping for is that people will not believe that there is something else behind it and they won’t crack their software. If only half of their customers don’t crack it they are 50% further ahead with upgrade income and subscription fees.
No one wants to believe this can happen. Just like know one wanted to believe that terrorists could kill 3000 people on a work day in New York. Ignorance is bliss but it can hurt too.
Robert
I really feel sorry for you. You’re getting all worked up over hypothetical situations. Relax.
Bob
Just wait. You may think I am paranoid, crazy or whatever.
Well that part is correct. The rest I find highly doubtful.
Bob
I have absolutly no problem with companies wanting to make sure they get paid for their products. Piracy is wrong and needs to be stopped.
However, since activation technology doesn’t stop or even slow piracy the fact that these companies claim that piracy is the only reason they moved to activation technology is a bunch of bull.
I would guess it costs companies a not so small chunk of change to develope, test and support activation technology. I have to ask myself why if it doesn’t stop or slow piracy would a company spend this amount of money on it (which includes having live people available by phone when you have problems activating) when you can’t even get decent technical support anymore.
The reason is simple and clear. They have another use planned for it in a few years. They are doing it now so that when the time comes to get to the nasty part of it it will have snuck up on us and we won’t be as likely to fight it.
As they say if you drop a frog in boiling water it will jump out. But, put it in a pot of cold water and have it slowly heat to a boil and the frog won’t see it coming until it is too late.
This is what software companies are doing. They are slowly heating the water so we don’t jump out. Once it is boiling we have had it.
From the response here I have no doubt that the cattle that are consumers are in for a very hot time in a few years. I just hope you all enjoy being the ATM for software companies because every time you turn around it will be pay us this, pay us that. Gimme, gimme, gimme.
Robert
Stuart,
No one said it has happened yet. We are saying it will happen. It is coming like a class 50 hurricane and no one it batting down the hatches.
Robert
John,
Unfortunately, software companies are assuming that if it were 100% impossible for their products to be pirated that everyone that is currently using a pirated copy would have been a paying customer. That is 100% bull pooped and is used by companies and their lobbing groups to get politicians to pass laws that benefit them and them alone.
If you were to believe the numbers give by software companies over lost revenue were true no company could stay in business with losses like that.
There is an article on the Macromedia site written by they anti-piracy manager that says Macromedia looses half its income to piracy. Basically half of all copies of their products used on the planet or pirated and therefore lost income.
That is like Ford saying that half of all Ford vehicles on the road were stolen from their plants. No company could survive losses like that.
It is all hyped bull poop used to get more protective laws passed for the companies leaving consumers with their pants down and in a permanent bent over state.
Robert
wrote in message
From sitting in on similar discussions at a different software company,
I’m not sure I’d say the working assumption is that normal punters are thieves.
But I do think there’s a farily common assumption that pirated copies
represent revenue lost … and that schemes such as activation will turn the pirates into honest, paying customers.
I think both assumptions are unwarranted.
I think (though I can’t prove) that many people who use priated software
would just do without or would turn to different programs if they were blocked from using the pirated warez. I think most of these folks are *not* a potential revenue source.
And I doubt that the activation schemes are invulnerable, a point others
have made in these discussions.
Earl,
That is the problem. Even if it was put in the license agreement that they promise never to do these things. There license agreements can be updated at any time without notice. It clearly states that in everyone I have ever looked at.
There is no way to guarantee that they won’t. So it comes down to trust. Do we trust these companies to never rip us off? I have to ask have we ever been ripped off by these companies? I have to say yes. Every time they put out a new version that is basically a bug ridden beta. So in the end it is really hard to trust these companies.
Robert
Robert —
Though I agree with some of your points, I don’t agree that Adobe’s releases are bug-ridden betas. If that were the case, I wouldn’t give a flip whether they instituted activation, because I wouldn’t be tempted by their products.
With an exception or two (InDesign 1.0 comes to mind), I’ve had very good experiences with the Adobe products I use. That’s why I care enough to be distressed that they’re chasing down this activation rabbit hole.
Companies including Adobe have already shown that they can deactivate
serial numbers.<
Huh???? They can’t deactivate *your* serial number for your present version of Photoshop. What they can do (and do do) is make a note of constantly appearing identical serial numbers and assume that you have given away copies of your program to friends and acquaintances who have registered their copies with your serial number. Those same friends and acquaintances have also given copies to their friends and acquaintancies who are also using you serial number and have tried to register it. However they cannot stop your present version of Photoshop from working – but they can deactivate the serial number so that if you try and *upgrade* to a newer version, the upgrader will notice your serial number is on a black list and refuse to install. You then have to telephone Customer support and explain why your serial number has been tried to register 100 or so other copies of Photoshop.
—
Carol
(Posted from the UK)
Otherwise they would be happy with people paying $600 for the
product and using it as long as they wanted.<
They are indeed happy for you to be doing just that – nobody forces you to purchase upgrades, you can simply carry on using the software which you purchased the licence to use for as long as you want.
If you were happy using Photoshop 2.5 on a Windows 3.1 system using an old Intel 486 computer, then gosh, IT STILL WORKS!!!!!!. Dig out an old system and try it if you don’t believe me.
As to the clothing analogy – surely you send your clothes to the dry cleaners for cleaning occasionally – you have to pay for that cleaning (updating), the clothing manufacturer doesn’t feel under any obligation to you to provide free cleaning for life to keep it up to date. Of course you are free to continue wearing the clothes without any cleaning – but ultimately that is your decision (or the decision of your friends <g>) —
Carol
(Posted from the UK)
but it is what they are all working for.<
Have you seen any written evidence on this – if you haven’t it is pure propaganda serving god only knows somebody’s political agenda (and if it’s not that then I must suspect paranoia like Bob is assuming). —
Carol
(Posted from the UK)
When new applications refuse to support existing operating systems.<
Nobody is forcing you to upgrade your op sys and your software – as I said in an earlier message, you can still happily use Photoshop 2.5 on an old Windows 3.1 Intel 486 system. It is because *you* have chosen to upgrade one of the constituent products that you have to upgrade the rest. It’s like putting a brand new engine which is 10 times more powerful than the old one in a clapped out old car body and then being surprised when the clapped out old brakes in the old body fail to stop the car. Sometimes you just need to upgrade more than one thing if you want everything to work properly.
—
Carol
(Posted from the UK)
Carol,
Your analogies are much better than mine.
Must take notes, must take notes. <g>
Bob
Your analogies are much better than mine.<
<vbg>
—
Carol
(Posted from the UK)
nobody forces you to purchase upgrades,
Not yet. this is a tired old MS argument. No one "forces" you to use MS office, but in the corporate world, that’s the "standard". You upgrade or die. So say the "industry" moves to psb format (only available for PSCS), then in a way, yes you are forced (if that’s your business). You upgrade or go out of business. That’s INDIRECTLY forcing you to upgrade, and don’t think the marketing folks and bean counters don’t take that into consideration. They COUNT on it. Also it’s not a stretch to think that in a couple of years and a few upgrades down the road, the psd format may "go away". Again in that instance you’re forced to upgrade or get a new line of work. Because "everyone else" has upgraded. If you’re a hobbyist, like me, sure go on and use ps7 forever. But if you’re a designer and all of a sudden everyone is using the great new format, you need to think about what puts food on your table. Again you’re indirectly forced down an upgrade path whether you’d like to go there or not. You may not need any new feature in a future version of the app, except that format. That’s a hook. It’s a great thing, unlimited file sizes, 300k pixel limits. Wonderful, but it’s still a hook if the whole industry shifts. So not you can’t necessarily "stay at version 7" (or 2.5) forever if you’re business depends on working with other businesses.
you have to pay for that cleaning (updating), the clothing manufacturer doesn’t feel under any obligation to you to provide free cleaning for life to keep it up to date.
you don’t need to call the clothing manufacturer after the 2nd time you have your suit dry cleaned.
It’s like putting a brand new engine which is 10 times more powerful than the old one in a clapped out old car body and then being surprised when the clapped out old brakes in the old body fail to stop the car. Sometimes you just need to upgrade more than one thing if you want everything to work properly.
It’s not like that at all, Carol. An engine is necessary for a car to run. Activation is NOT needed in an application. It’s a "feature". Actually it’s not even a feature. It’s more of a "scheme".
if you haven’t it is pure propaganda serving god only knows somebody’s political agenda
I’m seeing a lot of "propaganda" coming from both sides of this fence.
I don’t know if you’re just toeing the corporate line here Carol, or if you really don’t see the possibilities for abuse that abound with this scheme. THIS particular upgrade may be innocuous, but the next? What about the next? It’s a very slippery slope that does NOT need to happen (except it already seems we’re sliding).
You know I respect you Carol, but I don’t see you giving any consideration to the concerns of the people who are really, um, concerned with this <g>. Just the ol’ corporate pat on the back and a "there, there, it’ll be ok". (Yes, I know you don’t work for Adobe. You’re just sticking up for them.) But you can’t guarantee that it WILL be all right in the future (see the no individual product upgrades to the CS suite policy), so your attempt at allaying these user’s fears and concerns will be almost worse than nothing if in the future some or all of the scarier scenarios come true.
I’m buying this upgrade. I don’t like activation. Because: It’s invasive. It treats honest users as criminals out of the gate. It creates ill will in the user community. It hassles legitimate users and does nothing to stop even casual piracy, never mind the big timers. No spin you or anyone else puts on it will alter these facts.
As I’m only a hobbyist, I’m not necessarily in as deep as some here who feed their family off of what they do with photoshop. Scary things can and DO happen all the time in the corporate world. Decisions are not always (in some companies cases, often) made to keep users happy (SCO) but to feed the bottom line and the Wall Street sharks. When a company’s mind set turns that way, either they’ll become the next microsloth, and there ain’t many of them, or the next EasyCalc, and the corporate graveyard is littered with companies who thought they pull it off.
Respectfully, but feeling a little disgruntled,
dave
Nobody is forcing you to upgrade your op sys and your software – as I said in an earlier message, you can still happily use Photoshop 2.5 on an old Windows 3.1 Intel 486 system.
That wasn’t apropos the first time. The world has moved on.
I know you’re typing as fast as you can, and it’s not your fault. But you don’t have to defend every point, every issue, every detail–some of it is indefensible, and you know it, too.
Nobody listened the last times these issues were raised, so just let the folks get it out of their systems. The noise will die-down.
Either that, or the threads will disappear.
Either that, or the threads will disappear.
Nah. That won’t happ<mrff>…..<bzzzzzt><crrrrzzzzzzt>…….
Well put Dave. Very well put. You go girl!
I would’ve put my order in TODAY. But now, hell, I’ll wait.
I have Photoshop7, Illustrator 9, Indesign 2 and Acrobat 4.
A———–I think it is cheaper for me to buy the creative suit rather than upgrade each individually. Am I right? I really find all this CONFUSING!!! It’s kind of silly as I will have 2 copies of each software. This does not make sense. Let me get my calculator out.
B———-The photoshop activation "do da la al" thing is confusing me as well. Can I install PS on my desktop + my laptop or do I need to contact Adobe for activation on the lappy?????
Can I install PS on my desktop + my laptop or do I need to contact Adobe for activating on the lappy?????
Yes to both. The license allows you to install on your desktop and laptop (but not two desktops); it always has been that way. But you need to activate each installation, by either calling adobe or letting it do it’s thing over a the internet.
If you get fired and have to put it on a different laptop, you need to contact adobe so that the former activation can be de-activated so that you can use it on your new laptop.
You can do this up to 8 times a year according to Carol, before they tell you that you have to buy a new seat.
Thanks for that. OK what about this scenario- I buy with my own money PS8. I install it on my home desktop and my private laptop.
Then I want to use it at work. Can I not install it on my work desktop???????????? I mean I am the only guy using all 3 machines….ENLIGHTEN ME PLEASE
So technically, I’ve been in violation of the license from day one
Tony,
RE: post #22
Not technically. Literally!
While youre getting all wound up at Adobe for enforcing their License Agreement
that happened to catch you with your pants down
Let me throw another scenario at you.
Im using two workstations: one is Mac the other is PC. I have two licenses of PS to run both machines even though I only use one at the time and Im the only user on both. The way I look at it its the cost of doing business that way.
If I were to follow your logic I could be within the spirit of the License Agreement if I just installed bootlegged copy on one of them
nobody is losing a dime, I have a right to have it on two computers
who cares that I would be bending the rules a little
right?
If you workflow is important to you just buy enough licenses to cover what you need
or if time isnt money just keep installing/uninstalling to stay within two computers limit and Im sure Adobe will accommodate you with their activation procedure.
BTW: I dont like activation. Im not defending it, I just cant agree with your reasoning for whining about it opposing it. Its here to stay and we better get over it.
PS: I find it funny that some folks here were screaming bloody murder when MS introduced Activation for XP yet find it good for you
you might even like it when it comes to Adobe. At least I stuck to my guns
NO XP until Im forced to it, I dont need it. I cant say the same thing about PS. 😉
nick/slickrenderer:
Yes, if the license is for one computer. For instance, I tried to activate Word 2000 on a second desktop machine in the same room, in my apartment and Microsoft said "no." It has to be a laptop.
I can’t fault Adobe for enforcing this rule. If you are making money at work using their product, share a ‘lil bit of the wealth 🙂
A license is a one time payment, and the upgrades are much less. You prolly pay more than that in office rent for one month.
Errr, how would some of you activation apologists feel if the next music CD you bought could only be played on a single stereo system in your home as well as in your car, and nowhere else?
Since I have no bones to hide in my closet, and store mostly abstruse mathematics on my HDs, I don’t care about (improbable) privacy infringement by Adobe. I wonder, however, how will a guy/gal with no internet connection (or a rickety 3.3kB/sec like mine) activate his/hers newly acquired CS?
I don’t know if you’re just toeing the corporate line here Carol<
You know that I don’t have to toe the corporate line Dave, never have. But there is so much scaremongering going on here. There is probably more chance of a nuclear war breaking out in which we will all be annihilated than some of the scenarios which are being postulated here by some folk. Somewhere along the line somebody needs to calm the growing hysteria because it isn’t the demon which some people are allowing it to become.
—
Carol
(Posted from the UK)
Carol: even if Activation turns out to be only a minor inconvenience, it’s still an inconvenience that we didn’t have before.
You can do this up to 8 times a year according to Carol<
This was the figure which I was told about – obviously Adobe can change that at any point up to the release date.
—
Carol
(Posted from the UK)
Now there is something more fundamental about the activation system. In its core, it is radicaly altering the purchase equilibrium. In fact, the activation system is stolling the client, because the property remains in the hand of the saler. If the saler decide some day to stop its activating system, the product become worthless, un-usable. The purchase act lose its meaning : the property remains in the hand of the saler, since at any moment the saler can prevent the client from using its product.
In fact, activation system is no more than a disguised renting system replacing a sales system.
This a reason strong enough to refuse such a deal.
I can today install and use some very clever softwares puiblished in 1993 (yes, I do !) without asking the saler for permission. I don’t see way i should ask permission to Adobe to install PSP 8 in yare 2013 if I wish so.
More trivial considerations :
I work at a company that has dozens of Photoshop licenses in this building alone, and many more elsewhere. There is very strict management of license use here.
So it is everywhere over the world, I mean the civilized western world. Piracy protection won’t increase Adobe sales in this domain, because this market is policing itself.
What individual home users do with their software has always been harder to control.
That’s the point. If Adobe expect increase sales from this market segment, well, they gonna be disappointed.
Installing Photoshop on your elder father’s computer to keep is neurones alives is widely practiced unlawfull practice. Now to believe that this segment of the market will buy the software if it cannot install it free is just laughable.
Everybody know how M$ has built its huge PAYING customers base through piracy in schools.
There is probably more chance of a nuclear war breaking out in which we will all be annihilated than some of the scenarios which are being postulated here by some folk.
See? That’s what I meant. Even your metaphores are so wild that they go too far the other way. I understand you trying to allay fears. But you’re reacting as wildly in the opposite direction as some are in the big brother scenarios. Is activation the end of the world? No. Is there more chance of a nuclear war happening than some of the scenarios mentioned? Are you kidding? Can’t you see the possibilities? Don’t you watch the industry at all?
A move towards software rental isn’t far fetched. It’s been talked about in the mainstream computer press for years. Companies are salivating for it because of the constant revenue stream. Changing formats to drive sales isn’t unheard of. The new MS office is doing the same thing in going XML based.
Ah, well.
dave
A move towards software rental isn’t far fetched. It’s been talked about in the mainstream computer press for years. Companies are salivating for it because of the constant revenue stream.
That is exactly the point I underlined. Product activation is modifying the sale legal basis at its core. It is basicaly turning it into a renting system.
I won’t say it is wrong. I just wanted to point out that if it is a renting system, Adobe shoukld be fair and annouce it as it is, instead of keeping people believing it is still a saling – exchange of property – system.
Maynbe some people will be happy to rent PSP instead of buying it. It’s their affair. As far as I am concerned, I say NO and I won’t rent PSP. I will turn to a product I can buy – or better, an opensource one.
Errr, how would some of you activation apologists feel if the next music CD you bought could only be played on a single stereo system in your home as well as in your car, and nowhere else?
Iain, some of the "copy protected" cds which are coming out recently won’t even play in my car stereo! They appently don’t even count as proper "CDs" as the data is corrupt. So the only way to listen to a CD that I have bought with my hard earned cash in my car is to rip it to my computer and burn a copy! But that’s another anti-piracy argument 🙂
There was a time in my work when I encontered this plug-in for Photoshop use by silk screen printers. My boss then buy this plug-in and I installed it. When I run the plug-in, a silly question prompted me and a disclaimer below it reads "email the question to xxxxxx.com to get the answer so that your plug-in will run". So I did email it and in return we received an activation key. Then one day, our computer bogged down and has to be reformatted (win95). And after installing all over again and with that plug-in, dang!, a different question prompt me this time. And when emailed the question, the reply is we have to pay again to receive the answer and the activation key. There, we are caught unaware! So we junked the plug-in.
I hope this will not be the future of activation key.
Not yet. this is a tired old MS argument. No one "forces" you to use MS office, but in the corporate world, that’s the "standard". You upgrade or die. So say the "industry" moves to psb format (only available for PSCS), then in a way, yes you are forced (if that’s your business). You upgrade or go out of business. That’s INDIRECTLY forcing you to upgrade, and don’t think the marketing folks and bean counters don’t take that into consideration. They COUNT on it. Also it’s not a stretch to think that in a couple of years and a few upgrades down the road, the psd format may "go away". Again in that instance you’re forced to upgrade or get a new line of work. Because "everyone else" has upgraded. If you’re a hobbyist, like me, sure go on and use ps7 forever. But if you’re a designer and all of a sudden everyone is using the great new format, you need to think about what puts food on your table. Again you’re indirectly forced down an upgrade path whether you’d like to go there o
r not. You may not need any new feature in a future version of the app, except that format. That’s a hook. It’s a great thing, unlimited file sizes, 300k pixel limits. Wonderful, but it’s still a hook if the whole industry shifts. So not you can’t necessarily "stay at version 7" (or 2.5) forever if you’re business depends on working with other businesses.
I do a lot of PowerPoint work for a couple of clients. They are both still running Office 97. I’m the only one pressuring them to upgrade. You’re not being forced to upgrade to PS CS, either. Look around this forum, there are still people coming here looking for help with PS 4.0,
5.0, 5.5 and 6.0. Who’s forcing upgrades on them?
I’m sorry but I just don’t buy this argument.
Bob
A———–I think it is cheaper for me to buy the creative suit rather than upgrade each individually. Am I right? I really find all this CONFUSING!!! It’s kind of silly as I will have 2 copies of each software. This does not make sense. Let me get my calculator out.
Probably, but keep something in mind. You will be tied to suite upgrades forever. This is one point I think Adobe is burying way too deep and not explaining at all well.
The new CS scheme is very much like Microsoft Office. You get everything but you only get one serial number. So when the next version comes out the only upgrade you are eligble for is the entire suite.
I for one am sticking with individual upgrades. I want the freedom to upgrade only the pieces I neee/want. I’m going to get PS and ID but Illustrator is still a maybe for me.
B———-The photoshop activation "do da la al" thing is confusing me as well. Can I install PS on my desktop + my laptop or do I need to contact Adobe for activation on the lappy?????
AFAIK, you can have two concurrent activations. The EULA hasn’t changed one bit.
Bob
That is exactly the point I underlined. Product activation is modifying the sale legal basis at its core. It is basicaly turning it into a renting system.
And you’re still wrong. The terms of the licensing agreement haven’t changed one bit. You don’t own the software, only the right to use it.
Bob
I wonder, however, how will a guy/gal with no internet connection (or a rickety 3.3kB/sec like mine) activate his/hers newly acquired CS?
A new-fangled device called a telephone.
I see a clear and easy way to end this extremely long thread. For all of the "sky-is-falling" conspiracy theorists in the audience, why don’t you simply build your own computer systems and program your own software? If Adobe is evil incarnate, why bother with them?
I’m not talking about using Linux or creating a "white box" PC from components sold by vendors. I mean creating everything yourself, from scratch. Program your own custom OS, manufacture your own hard drives, design your own memory chips and processors, build massive monitors of unimaginable sizes.
You will be in complete control. The hardware and software will be customized to meet your every need. There will be no activation, no licenses of any kind, no invasion of your privacy, no inconviences, and no upgrade cycles. No one will be your master. Nothing will stand in your way. Instead of complaining, why not empower yourself?
(No, I’m not being sarcastic.)
And you’re still wrong. The terms of the licensing agreement haven’t changed one bit. You don’t own the software, only the right to use it.
I was expecting this answer. Yes. I know softwares are not owned. They are just licensed. I was just using a short cut to explain the difference betwqeen the old system and the new. But since there was somebody to take it at the first level, all right, let’s go…
Yes, the license written on the paper is not change. And that is exactly the problem. The license is the same on the paper but in its application, it has been changed. Adobe can now prevent me from using the application anytime they want by refusing to activate a new installation. Thus the "right to use it" is now an empty word.
You are perfectly right. The license has not change. And there it is where it is even more disgusting. The software is now rented under the disguise of "anti-piracy". Adobe perfectly know that if they would annouce frankly that they are no longer selling PSP but rending it, there would be too much out-cry. So they mask that behind "anti-piracy". But concretly, it is just the same thing. PSP is now a rented software with a one-time only fee, but rented anyway : customer as no more full discretion over its use. Prove me wrong.
Only time will prove you (or me) wrong. But I’ve had to deal with Adobe on some lost CDs and had no problem getting new ones. My advice is to register the software to protect your investment. As long as it’s registered, IME, Adobe will very easy to work with.
Bob
If Adobe is evil incarnate, why bother with them?
You don’t believe you are so close to the thruth.
As far as I am concerned, I slowly but decidly switch to open-source and cross-plateform software. 25 to 30 % of my workflow is now under open-source dependance. I expect acheiving 50 % near the end of next year. When 75 % or so will be reached I will jump from Windows to Linux. Since I take care to choose cross-plateform softs, I then won’t have all the learning cuve coming at the same time : I will just have the OS leraning-cuvre at that point, plus the 25 % remaining.
You are right. Nobody forces customers to go in the Adobe’s wagon. Absolutly nobody. All ordinary firms have learn the hard way that the customer is the king. Adobe may think the other way, but softwares are no different. If Adobe plays the wrong game with their customers, they will learn it the hard way also. Soon or late.
Robert Oliver,
If you’re the owner of Adobe, no doubt consumers will not buy your product. Luckily, you are not. This thread is helping us all.
2ears
Good luck with Linux. You must wait a long time if ever you can run PS on this operating system.
In the meantime Buy, Register and Activate PS or look for an other job.
Good luck with Linux. You must wait a long time if ever you can run PS on this operating system. In the meantime Buy, Register and Activate PS or look for an other job
Remeber the time when PC’s were good for spreadsheets and data applications, and no creative would ever leave a Mac for anything else ?
It was about 10 years ago.
Now these days Linux is good at spreadsheets and data applications, and no creative would ever leave a Mac or Windows for anything else.
Strange. There is something repeating in my text but I can’t figure where…
You are right. Currently I could not switch from Win to Linux in day. Prospective is the art to see above current conditions.
I started by switchin office apps one year ago. It was a breeze. Then switched all the Internet related stuff six monthes ago : browser and
e-mail. It was a breeze. Then switched the XML developpment stuff last month. It was a breeze. Then switched the CD burning thing. It was a breeze. Tested the Pharelia three screens video card on Suse. It was a breeze. Next step is pixel-related stuff (Photoshop replacement). PostScript related stuff (Illustrator replacement) will come next. InDesign will come last, along with 3D.
I know it is a challenge. I can be wrong.
You know ,there are only three remaining true brakes towards Linux wide adoption : 1) coherent font system ; 2) coherent printer driver system ; 3) coherent installation packages. I have monitored Linux since 1998, regularly trying new versions of the core. All the rest of the story is now behind us. In two years from now Linux will be as user-friendly as Windows is currently. Maybe even before, at the speed Microsoft and now Adobe render it more difficult.
Norbert
The XP firewall should block popups – certainly I’ve yet to see one, using XPHome. I believe it can conflict with ZoneAlarm, but it’s happy with my Sygate
Norbert
PS runs well on Linux using Crossover Office
AFAIK, you can have two concurrent activations. The EULA hasn’t changed one bit.
You’re both, right and wrong. You cannot have two concurrent activations per se, UNLESS one of them is a laptop. If you have it on two desktops, you are in violation.
Carol they have shut down ones that used for piracy. That was all over the place a year or so ago. And, with your definition that is still deactivating serial numbers. You can bet with activation it will be easier to remotely shut down software now. Of course they aren’t going to tell you they can do that. But, if you can activate it over the internet they can deactivate it as well. I am also sure that like version 7 that it goes out and checks the Adobe servers if your online and now will check to make sure that your serial number hasn’t been turned off. Or course this is disguised as checking for updates or nifty little articles you might be interested in. But, you can bet it is checking.
Besides Carol, even if I am wrong about half of what I have said there is the other half and all of this comes down to trust. I choose not to trust the marketing BS that companies put out. Because after 20 years of testing and reviewing software and hardware I know that the number one concern of all companies is the increase of money coming in. If in the process of that something good should come of it for the customers all the better. But, money is number one and in that instance they will do one thing and say another. Trust. I don’t!
Any one that does trust everything a company says is in for a rude awaking.
Now that said I am not going to comment on any of this any more. I have said what I want to say and you all can do what you want. Myself I want to get back to exploring the new CS products.
Robert
John,
While overall I suppose Adobe is better than most. They are getting more sloppy. Acrobat 6.0 Pro is so buggy I had to stop using it. That is the first time an Adobe product was so buggy I couldn’t work past it.
I don’t think that in this regard Adobe will be getting any better. Macromedia is the same. The new 2004 products are loaded with bugs.
Sure, patches will come out. But, not before people have strokes over the problems.
We will see but I am not holding my breath.
Robert
wrote in message
Robert —
Though I agree with some of your points, I don’t agree that Adobe’s
releases are bug-ridden betas. If that were the case, I wouldn’t give a flip whether they instituted activation, because I wouldn’t be tempted by their products.
With an exception or two (InDesign 1.0 comes to mind), I’ve had very good
experiences with the Adobe products I use. That’s why I care enough to be distressed that they’re chasing down this activation rabbit hole.
Acrobat 6.0 Pro is so buggy
Amen bruddah.
and the nerve gas is VX. Close but no cigar.
Maybe I’ve just been lucky with Acrobat, then. I’ve been using 6 Pro ever since it came out — on Win2K — and have had zero problems. Except for one instance of operator error.
Adobe upgrades were evolution. Technology or trends or file formats drove changes. Now, by synchronizing like MS Office, to shore-up the bottom line when needed–not when an application needs updating.
At 18 months, users are expected to simultaneously upgrade everything, whether all applications have improved or not–and we can hope that some have not changed much, because nobody wants to re-learn everything at the same time.
* Some programs that need upgrades will be held-back, to synchronize with the suite. This summer the Illustrator upgrade was slowed, even though Illustrator desperately needed the fixes.
* The quick evolution of InDesign would not have happened under today’s policy.
* The importance of the Internet hit between upgrade cycles, and individual applications that related to the Internet were updated.
And to ensure that everyone upgrades on-schedule, there’s activation. And activation will not stop at Photoshop; look for it in the InDesign CS.0.1 patch.
nerve gas…mmm..let me see…H2S gas is nasty stuff. When exposed to large amounts (25 parts per million or something like that), your nervous system shuts down and you die.
How do you know if you’ve been exposed? You will smell rotten eggs and when the smell goes away, you recieved a lethal dose and your minutes away from nervous system shutdown (AKA death).
ZIP
(sorry ’bout that…I couldn’t resist.)
PS> I know nothing about bio-agents. I only learned about H2S when I worked at a pulp mill as summer job during my college years. We did a two day orientation on mill hazards. The industrial accidents video freaked me out 😮
Ditto. I’ve had no problems at all with Acrobat 6 Pro and it’s fixed several problems I was having printing with 5.0.
Bob
Well Bob, I’ll take that as a credible endorsement. Maybe it’s time I revisit Acrobat 6. I just watched the board as it was released, and knew that 5 was troublesome. Then I saw some problems with 6, so perhaps former issues are no longer issues.
Thanks.
All I can tell you is that I couldn’t get ID PDFs to print properly using Acrobat 5. They print perfectly from 6.0 and the separations preview is worth every penny of the upgrade.
Bob
So, is anyone keeping score, Pangloss and Pollyanna v. Chicken Little and Paranoid Tin Hat?
Conspicuous in its absence is a reassuring smile from the marketing vise squad telling us why these changes: activation, one-way fork on suite upgrades, are good for us.
Tim
….and I said nothing. And then they came for me…
I’m keeping score. I win! <grin>
Errr, how would some of you activation apologists feel if the next >music CD you bought could only be played on a single stereo system in your home as well as in your car, and nowhere else?
===========================================================
Under a software type of license, you can make money with the software without having to fork over a percentage. "royalty-free"
So if the music cd were that way, you could take your home and or portable player as part of your paid entertainment, you could play it on the air as part of your paid DJ gig, or pipe it through your restuarant sound system all without having to account to ASCAP or BMI each time you played it.
Then making sure you don’t use one copy for 3 restaurants would be fair.
Of course if the artist came out with a new CD and you pay $3 to "upgrade", then you couldn’t play the old one unless you had compatiblity problems, i.e. your audience hates the new CD :^)
Just having fun with this 🙂
r_harvey wrote:
….and I said nothing. And then they came for me…
Niemöller may not have been able to help himself, but at least he survived.
YrbkMgr wrote:
I’m keeping score. I win! <grin>
Hey Tony, looks to me like you might be losing the current battle. Sorry you got bit particularly, I seem to be able to do what I want with v7, and hope that outlasts this madness.
Tim
Tim,
See:
YrbkMgr "Activation" 10/1/03 1:23pm </cgi-bin/webx?14/107>
Tony, you’ve got a note there, too.
Tim
But you’re reacting as wildly in the opposite direction as some are in
the big brother scenarios.<
I realise that Dave, but mild mannered arguements are being simply brushed aside without even a nod – so sometimes it is necessary to fight fire with fire.
—
Carol
(Posted from the UK)
UNLESS one of them is a laptop. <
No you can run it on two workstations – one at your place of business and one at your home. If you work from home, then you probably have at least one room set aside for your business although you might also have another computer in the rest of the building which can be classed as your home.
—
Carol
(Posted from the UK)
No you can run it on two workstations – one at your place of business and one at your home. If you work from home, then you probably have at least one room set aside for your business although you might also have another computer in the rest of the building which can be classed as your home.
How many of Adobe’s faithful customers would really like to even have to consider that? How many would’ve even considered abusing their license? This shouldn’t even be a discussion.
Carol,
No you can run it on two workstations
According to my copy of the EULA (see your Photoshop directory, in the Legal folder), you can install it on *one* system, and a portable (using only one at a time) – it says nothing about work and/or home.
I’ve always understood that the work/home thing was for corporate licences (I think it started with MS Office), and has been transmogrified by various users into an urban myth as being applicable to all software.
Klaas – hmmm, work/home is supposed to be covered by the Adobe EULA. (we beat the lawyers up about that one 😉
Chris, thanks for that – I read in another thread where Ian Lyons quoted from the "new" EULA, and it mentioned work/home, so I guess we’re covered.
I recall that the EULA’s on the website were different than the ones shipped with the apps, hence the inexistence of the "work/home" topic in the shipped version…
The point that is being missed by many here is the toll this activation scheme takes on "power users." If any one here can claim that PS has never locked up or otherwise misbehaved, then they have never used it to open files larger than a few MB and never used layers. When a project crashes in the middle of the night and you need to reinstall PS, the last thing you need is call or go online for authorization to reinstall a program gone bad!
I would have absolutely no problem with a decent activation scheme if Adobe would guarantee that it would never freeze or lock up the machine. In my experience, every PS version starts getting flaky after hard use (large image files, many layers, etc.), and the only way to regain stability is a full reinstallation. Now this was always a PIA operation before activation, but adding the layer of inconvenience that this imposes, it will make for a miserable user experience. The crashes and lockups are attributed to the complexity of the program; does adding a protection scheme layer in any way improve stability?
Then there is always the "guilty until proven innocent" syndrome. We are all lumped together as pirates and forced to bear the shackles of restrictive measures as though every customer is a potential pirate. As one who has been buying and upgrading PS through several iterations, I feel Adobe is insulting it’s loyal customers.
And the point you’ve missed is that you can reinstall it on the same machine 10,000 times if you want to.
Bob
far be it from me to be defending activation, nick, but as has been stated before (here and in about 5 other threads on this subject) you get a 30 day grace period before not activating will shut down the app. so in your example, even if you had to go to another machine because of catastrophic failure, you’d still be able to finish your work without activating on that new machine.
dave
Actually, no. If I am not mistaken there is a limit to the number of times Adobe will let you re-activate it with in a one year period. I think it is like 8 or something like that. After that you would have to call them and explain why for the umpteenth time you have had to reinstall.
Robert
wrote in message
And the point you’ve missed is that you can reinstall it on the same machine 10,000 times if you want to.
Bob
No limit on the same machine, AFAIK.
Bob
RL, that’s what I got out of it too. (barring a full format of course, cuz that would wipe out the activation hash).
Data is stored on the drive outside of the file system–impervious to high-level disk formatting.
Punish the customers less. Then every lesser punishment will feel like a reward.
– Dilbert
every PS version starts getting flaky after hard use (large image
files, many layers, etc.), and the only way to regain stability is a full reinstallation.<
No problem with that, when you uninstall you can choose to leave the activation on the system, then when you re-install, it doesn’t ask you to reactivate – so installations over a long holiday (eg Xmas and New Year) will not require any phone calls to Adobe.
However, even if you forgot to keep the activation live, you have 30 days of using the software before it will refuse to load.
—
Carol
(Posted from the UK)
Well, I see that there are many differing points of view on this (as there should be). I still find Adobe’s activation scheme intrusive, and the added layer of nonsense cannot enhance stability in a program that already seems produce error messages with little provocation. I’m sure PS defenders will jump on the last statement.
Perhaps what is also bothering some users, is that we are painted with a broad brush as pirates by Adobe, whether we are or not. Being assumed guilty out of hand does not make for a good relationship. On any level, I find it offensive whether fostered by Microsoft or Adobe. It’s like walking into a store and having to relinquish your wallet and ID card while the doors are locked behind you, just in case you may decide to shoplift. Adding to the insult, Adobe has not placed the same burden on Mac users, just singling out PC users. Are Mac users somehow statistically more honest than PC users?
I have been using Photoshop (along with competing Aldus Photo Styler now owned by Adobe) for many years, dutifully upgrading right up to the current CS, so it is irritating to be treated as a software pirate. I know that pirated versions of CS were readily available before the legitimate product was released; has this activation scheme prevented that? No, it just treated the legitimate buyers as pirates.
Getting back to the issue of computer failure, on more than one occasion, I have had to swap out and replace drives at the most inconvenient of times. The point is, when things are hectic (and in my studio they always are) the idea of having to re-activate software due to hardware crashes, drive upgrades, etc., even with a 30-day "grace" period is adding an inconvenience that should not be imposed on customers. I am running CS on a dedicated graphic workstation that is not connected to a modem or cable. Having to call in and go through the ID process with all the serial, activation, and authorization numbers was a pain in the you-know-what!
What Adobe has accomplished is to turn off a large number of customers with this scheme. I think the software engineers could have spent their resources to improve the software rather than waste time on activation schemes. I continue to use Photoshop, but until now, I never considered looking at other photo manipulation software. Right now Photoshop is at the top of the heap, but as soon as a contender surfaces…
P.S. I hope Microsoft is looking over their shoulder at Linux!
Perhaps what is also bothering some users, is that we are painted with a broad brush as pirates by Adobe, whether we are or not. Being assumed guilty out of hand does not make for a good relationship. On any level, I find it offensive whether fostered by Microsoft or Adobe.
You should see the thread titled "Activation". It’s slowly scrolling off, but when I get back in town, I’m going to capture the thread. In that thread, there is a comment that Adobe simply wishes to keep honest people honest. <chuckle>
even with a 30-day "grace" period
Bear in mind, that it’s 30-days for the first activation. Once activated, if you need to replace a hard drive, you must activate NOW.
In France we now have a tax on every single CD we buy, to compensate so called looses by music majors and artists because of piracy.
You buy a CD to carry your data from one computer to the other ? No luck, pay the tax anyway …
This is exactly the same logic behind activation scheme. You are guilty before being proven innocent.
My algebra instructor used to say
"Okay for this test, I want you to sit one seat apart from each other. It’s not that I don’t trust you, I just don’t trust your neighbor".
At the time it was funny.
Once activated, if you need to replace a hard drive, you must activate NOW.
Actually, I don’t think that’s the case. If you replace the harddrive the entire record of the previous install is gone so you would be starting from scratch.
Bob
Stuart McCoy – 11:04am Sep 30, 2003 Pacific (55.) Name ONE time you have been forced to upgrade software?
The last time I tried to do my taxes with Intuit Turbo Tax Business. The software refused to import my finical data from QuickBooks Pro unless I upgraded my two year old version of QuickBooks.
This along with the DRM issue they had has convinced me to never purchase another Intuit product even if I doing so every year for the last twelve.
"And the point you’ve missed is that you can reinstall it on the same machine 10,000 times if you want to.
Bob"
Although I disagree with your statement above, the point you have missed is that this scheme is a major inconvenience and can not make Photoshop CS more stable. I don’t think you should have to reinstall a program twice let alone "10,000 times," but when I do have to, the last thing I want to have to deal with is an activation scheme. To me, that’s adding insult to injury.
You have also completely dismissed the issue of being presumed a software pirate before committing such a crime. Perhaps I am mistaken and you expect every software publisher to suspect you of intellectual property theft. I deal with many companies and if I had the attitude that every one of them was trying to pick my pocket, what kind of business relationships can come from that? My issue with this activation scheme is on several levels, not just the one you see.
Certainly you are entitled to your opinion as is everyone else on this forum, and there are many here who would disagree with your defense of an unfair and potentially damaging burden placed on PS users.
Although I disagree with your statement above, the point you have missed is that this scheme is a major inconvenience
How can a five second procedure be a major inconvenience? That said, I am concerned about the possibility that a crash could cause PS to demand an instant reactivation while I have no internet connection. That would be a major inconvenience.
Bob
Well it is 1:45 AM with a job due to be shipped for next day delivery later this morning and the nightmare scenario that I discussed on this forum has just occurred! After working on a large file for over two hours, an error message pops up on my screen saying:
"Adobe Activation
The configuration for the activation license is missing. Please uninstall and reinstall this application."
It would not allow me to save the file; Photoshop CS just kept cycling between the save window and the error window. When the minutes and hours count, who needs this nonsense? CS was functioning just fine all day, no changes were made to the configuration, no software added, nothing was done to spawn this message! This bogus activation scheme may end up costing me a client as a worst case scenario, loss of sleep at best.
When I mentioned this activation scheme is not going to enhance stability, several forum members said "what’s the big deal over activation." When they go through this nightmare in the wee hours of the morning with a deadline looming, they may just rethink their statement.
that sucks nick. did you ever get it working again? did you lose that file?
Nick,
It isn’t just Photoshop CS that can pull this trick. Windows XP Home did the same to me.
As for spy-cams in the bed room that was mentioned earlier, from the junk e-mail I’ve recently received, it looks like they are actually web-cams being used for commercial purposes.
Hey guys, thanks for the well wishes! I lost the 2hrs and never went to bed last night thanks to the activation BS. I know I should back up files frequently (after all, I’ve been using PS since version 4) but when deadline pressures are hanging over you, the last thing on your mind is when the last backup was made. Redid the image from the RAW files and finally finished the job, but missed the early pickup. Spent quality time apologizing to the client and now have to get things ready for another several-day location shoot starting tomorrow. Gotta get some sleep!
