Here’s a suggestion for all those ‘Read the FAQ’ posters:
When you first join the group, you have no idea of the ‘protocols’, so you ask dumb questions and basically feel your way in.
Then, you reach a second stage where you know the answers to the common questions that brought you here in the first place, so you start to answer the same questions posed by those newer than yourself, which fine-tunes and cements that knowledge in your own mind.
The third stage is leaving those simple answers to those in the second stage, and entering discussions with those with equal or more knowledge than yourself.
If people at the third stage insist on slapping newbies for whatever reason, they are not able to accept this evolution and are not encouraging those at the second level to share their knowledge and grow.
So if you are sick of posting ‘Read the FAQ’, move on out of the paddling pool and hit the olympic lanes…there are plenty here more than happy to help newbies splash around.
When you first join the group, you have no idea of the ‘protocols’
Well if you can’t read how did you get to the Photoshop forum? If you end up here and you and you really have a question chances are you can both read and write.
so the first thing you see when you enter the Photoshop forum is this:
Photoshop Macintosh
Welcome to the Photoshop Macintosh Forum!
Before posting a new topic, please take a moment to check the Photoshop Top Issues link and Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) link or folder below. Also, try the Forum Search button above. Your question may have already been answered. Thanks!
Click here for how to ask your question for quicker answers. Click here if you can not open Photoshop because it gets stuck on web updates. Click here if your issue is double-clicking or dragging/dropping does not open a file. Click here if your issue is Photoshop CS2 pauses when you paint quickly.
Helpful shortcuts: Link to Top Issues and Support Documents Link to Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) Link to Photoshop Windows Forum Link to Digital Negative (DNG) Forum Link to Adobe Bridge Forum
Link to RSS Feed – Photoshop: Top Issues Link to RSS Feed – Photoshop: Recent Support Documents
Support for Intel-based Macs Learn about Adobe’s plans for supporting Apple’s new Intel-based Macs. (PDF:79k)
If you are asking questions that are in the FAQs or that are referenced in the text I copyed from the main forum page chances are that you are lazy and can’t be bothered to pay attention to protocol. Pointing someone to the FAQ is my way of helping them to become self sufficient, You Know teach a man to fish.
Being new to Photoshop doesn’t give ANYONE a license to ignore those items as Buko listed that are placed at the very top of the page, are in bold and colored text, and are enclosed in a box colored differently from the rest of the thread index.
I’m sorry, but if that combination of things isn’t enough to draw people’s attention to something that just might be important, I don’t know what else could be done, beyond FORCING visitors to spend some time there when they first sign up.
Yeah, right…like that’d be viable or wise. Or even possible?
What part of steering people toward the FAQ section do you object to? It can be done caustically, or it can be expressed in a way that will hopefully make people understand that it’s there to increase the efficiency of information exchange.
I suppose you think the "How To Get Help Quickly" post is just so much over-the-top schoolmarmism? There’s some widely applicable wisdom contained in it.
Buko, why do you care? If some people read the FAQ and some don’t that is their loss, and as I said at first, having not-so-newbies helping newbies is a valuable thing….Having old-bies pointing them to the FAQ is no problem except that their time would be better spent using their great knowledge at a higher level. If they want to be forum nannies, that is their worry.
I can skim hundreds of posts in half an hour each day and the newbies only slow me up by 2 seconds and I like to answer them when I can as it is an opportunity to tune-up and also to pay-back the forum community for the fantastic help they have given me.
Regulars being caustic is scary and upsetting for a new friend who has a critical issue…Many of these people have never used a forum before and after the first visit in the crisis, most will return and start with the FAQ when the dust has settled from the initial crisis.
The first time you use a forum, it is quite daunting especially with a deadline biting your ankles…
Phos….
I always tell people (politely) to read the FAQ, but I know most don’t on the first visit, only after that visit do they get the feel for what is a FAQ and what is not.
"How to get help quickly" is a good post.
The issue at the centre of my top post was to point out the evolution of second graders mentoring first graders, I want to suggest that the bigger kids should play in their own area and leave the littlies to learn to think for themselves.
It is already working in this forum, there’s just a couple of big kids that wont stay out of the kindy, compare this forum to others and you can see the difference.
Keep in mind that responses are being read by many more people than actually post, so the caustic reply directed at a clumsy newbie puts off genuine lurkers (who have committed no offence) from contributing.
There’s ample evidence that the answer "Read the FAQs" helps a large number of newbie posters find the answer they are looking for.
It’s impossible to measure how many other of their questions don’t even have to be posted in the first place because they have been referred to the FAQs before so they now know where to find the answer.
Your pompous, arrogant opinions are worthless. Hall monitor? What a laugh. You’re the chief architect of the hostile, punitive, judgemental reaction to anyone who’s postings don’t measure up to your unilateral "standards."
You’re a bully and coward because you dish out your vitriol on a technology that prevents your victims from reaching you.
I have no idea why Adobe has allowed the kind of hostile atmosphere to go on here for so long. It has given them a black eye in the opinion of so many who have tried to use this place.
The forum needs to be monitored much more closely than it is. There shouldn’t be any place for anything but a welcome to anyone who has questions and there shouldn’e be tolerance for anything but helpful answers if the responder has one.
It doesn’t matter to me how informed you are and how many correct replies you have given here. If I were a monitor here I would have shut you down after one of your scolds so fast you wouldn’t have known what to do.
Now, I suppose we will be treated to another one of your ridiculous boasts and tirades that no one can tell you what to do, that you will do and say anything you want and that no man or woman has ever been able to shut you up. Big deal.
I rather agree with Phil. If you don’t hang around here pretty often, many of the regulars who actually are sincerely helpful can seem to be rather curmudgeonly and aggressively opinionated if you didn’t know better. Then again, some of them are… 😮
Don’t go there, Ramon. It’s a lame and endless argument and an untenable position, and you’ve engaged in it before.
Just as a reminder: Phosphor, or Phos, is derivative of a nickname I’ve had for 33+ years out of my 47. It’s as valid (perhaps even more so), both here and in meatspace as my birth certificate name.
The name one uses here is irrelevant. What might matter more is if someone was constantly changing usernames in order to wreak havoc that they’d be embarrassed to engage in under the name they’re more commonly known by. I have never been inclined to hide under any other name than Phosphor or Phos. I’ll say what I want, fearlessly.
People know me by that name, and know the personality behind it. That’s all that matters.
[Reed Reed] You’re a bully and coward because you dish out your vitriol on a technology that prevents your victims from reaching you.
That applies to Reed Reed as it does to you under that logic. Your correspondents ("victims" as the simpleton would have it) cannot reach either of you either.
Phil and Welles have taken a position advocating benevolent assistance to those who ask questions here. I stand with them.
A question is simply that: a request for information. It is not up to ANYONE to judge the validity of a question. If the questioner knew the answer already, it seems obvious that they would have never asked the question in the first place. To judge the validity of a question is to judge the questioner.
Regarding the standard "Read the FAQ’s" response: There is no problem offering that as a response to a question. The problem (and the strife) arises when that response is wrapped in a cloak of attitude and put-downs. That is not helpful and does not cutivate a sense of community.
I wonder if the vitriol so often seen here would be taking place if the correspodents were actually talking face-to-face.
Among other things, I teach Photoshop at a local university. I offer all sorts of online resources to my students; this forum is not one of them. I don’t want my students getting beat up if they happen to ask a stupid or naive question or, for that matter, any reason at all.
As this argument seems to come from the reaction that regular forum readers/posters have to people who post before reading the FAQ, maybe a simple solution would be:
a) If it annoys you or you want to encourage them to read the FAQ then post a link to the FAQ and/or tell them it’s at the top of the page.
b) If it doesn’t annoy you, post a link to the FAQ or the specific link in the FAQ.
That way everybody gets to react as they want, the poster gets the answer they want, and we move on to better things. I know we all want to see people learning this amazing application as painlessly as possible.
I offer this information as both a long-term teacher and a diplomat!
The FAQ section may be daunting to a "newbie" in a quick bind as they may not know which term to look for in answer to their question. How are they to search for answers on say, a "clipping path", when all they want to know is how to "not make the background show on an image"… There are a 1,001 words/phrases to describe some one thing we take for granted.
If you wanna run with the big dogs, occasionally you’re gonna get nipped.
Dogs bite for various reasons. They feel threatened. They’re defending their territory. They’re trying to establish themsleves as the alpha dog.
How does any of that fit into the world of Photoshop? The answer, of course, is that it doesn’t have anything to do with Photoshop. It has everything to do with people feeling threatened, needing to defend their territory, and trying to establish themselves as the lead dog.
It’s truly sad the number of "newbies" that come here for help then get a "you didn’t do something so stupid…" or "RTFM" or "FAQ you…I’ve no time for idiots"
One after another visits once, gets beat up and never comes back. I’ve seen it year in year out. But it’s much more prevalent recently.
The Photography Forum started out great, shortly a few ran everyone away, now there’s maybe a 8 contributors/participants.
There has been a major complaint about the arrogance of the MM/DW people rendering the GL forums unusable.
There should be no room for pompous self-aggrandizing in an educational environment and those that persist should be banned.
There’s virtually no similar problems in the PS Windows forum. A very friendly, helpful bunch over there. Ironically they embrace an OS created by one of the most arrogant corporations in modern history, one that made me a diehard Maccer.
To all the "newbies" reading this thread, ingnore the jerks, read between the lions, come back for more…there really is alot to learn here.
The blow-hard pompous snot-ass regulars here drove me away a years ago. I visit only as a last resort, with my nostrils pinched closed.
They need to get a life beyond being the internet tough guys at these forums. Somehow Adobe has allowed them to rule the roost here. Life is too short to deal with socially challenged people on the internetz.
A lot of the people who mention the regulars being rude are not regulars whenn it comes to postng and helping others, but they sure seem quick to step up to the plate when it comes time to criticize the way others help…
About a year and a half ago I started to notice a lot more negativity creeping into this community, so I just left. By chance I just happened to stop by to see what was going down and noticed this topic.
It looks like the same vocal minority is still alive and kicking :0[
I learned Photoshop from this forum and the generous folks who were happy to offer help and advice (with a smile), no matter what the question was. Sure there were moments when things got a bit wild & crazy, but respect for other members was nearly always present. Glad to see some of them are still here :0]
The saddest part is that many of the posters who cause this uncomfortable environment are some of the most skilled at providing people with answers.
Calling people names, aggression, profanity…even mild expressions used to hurt or denigrate, and thoughtless emotional reactions tossed off glibly but taken badly when expressed in print, are problematic in all on-line forums. All one can do is be the solution. Yes on occasion it requires a bit of self-discipline but that’s a requirement of civilized behavior. Civilized behavior creates community.
There is always a divide on help forums between those who are willing to give step by step answers to try and answer the actual question proposed by a poster and those who feel that the party of inquiry should be directed to discover the answer for him or herself. Those in the second camp tend to be people who did have the drive to discover on their own and have used that drive to achieve a degree of personal expertise. I can appreciate that as I tend to be a self starter.
However, when it comes to attempting to answer questions, I fall in the first camp. It is almost never that I really have an idea of the personality who is asking. They may be total beginners who are overwhelmed by the complexity, terminology, and mass of functions suddenly at their fingertips. A glib, cursory, response to such a person may cause such emotional harm that their learning curve becomes increased. That is a disservice and particularly affects those of a more retiring nature. Not all posters here are thick-skinned individuals and we would be wise to remember that.
You know, I’m a fan of Photoshop as well as a user of moderate skill. I enjoy learning from this forum and occasionally sharing some possible answer. My motivation in answering questions is to stimulate enthusiasm for the program on the part of those less skilled by providing little moments of illumination, and occasionally (but rarely) providing solutions for more skilled users.
What is your motivation? For that is expressed in the spirit of your posts.
I like where this is going (except for the one post with name calling). I don’t ever want to say something that discourages a person from learning how to design. I want people to want to design.
A helpful friendly atmosphere goes a long way towards my goal. Is it the community goal? I can only speak for myself.
I have been in and out of this forum due to some of the arguments – but there is no doubt that the information offered up here is top notch.
It is always good to reassess your methods, your workflow, indeed yourself.
I like this thread. This is a necessary discussion.
I wasn’t calling anyone names. I was merely pointing out characteristics.
I pop in here from time to time, only to see the continuing status quo of some of the regulars making themselves feel superior by chastising newbies.
If they were truly annoyed with the questions, they would just ignore them. But instead, they have to chastise anyone who dares disturb their sensibilities and ask a question that’s been asked before.
Total lameness I want no association with.
But I see this thread has constructive possibilities, so I chimed in. Hopefully the atmosphere around here can change.
Buko, "Eyedropper Tool problem!" #1, 9 Nov 2006 7:08 am </cgi-bin/webx?14/0>
now was I rude when I pointed the OP to the FAQs?
Personally I don’t think the OP was very observant because the FAQ tile describes his problem exactly. I know because I made the FAQ with the help of Phos who supplied the graphic. If pointing someone to the FAQs is so bad why do we have them? Why do we have manuals? if nobody reads them. This all comes back to give a man a fish you feed him once teach a man to fish and feed him for the rest of his life. I must agree the complainers seem to come out of the woodwork for threads like this but where are they when people are really asking questions or really need help?
You were absolutely not rude Buko – I certainly don’t see anything wrong with pointing someone to the FAQs.
But sometimes there is a general tone of impatience on the board, that’s more what I was talking about. I am not pointing fingers, people are here in different moods all the time, that is the nature of a big public forum like this.
I think there is always time to reevaluate methods, rethink strategies, remake who we are and who we want to be.
I administrate another forum and I have no problem telling someone that it would be a lot faster to look up some simple thing in the help menu than to post a thread and wait for a response. I try to do that nicely. The reason I’m on these boards is that I didn’t go to school and I learned everything from boards just like this. The reason I administrate another forum is that I want to give back.
I suspect that we all have similar motivations. That and I need to learn more.
Overall I think this is a good discussion – I have seen these on other forums, trying to establish the boundaries of what is and isn’t appropriate behavior. To be honest most of the time these get just as nasty as what is being talked about but this discussion has mellowed into a reasonable exchange between adults. I like that.
But sometimes there is a general tone of impatience on the board …
Yep. Human communication breaks down into 3 methods – body language, what you say, and tone. It’s been said that what you say (that is – *the actual words* you use), only account for 10% of all communication. Naturally, since we don’t have benefit of viewing body language here, that leaves the tone of the response to provide the bulk of the meaning to go along with what is actually written. That’s very easy to misjudge.
I don’t think "it’s in the FAQ", as a response is rude, but it doesn’t come across as warm and friendly either. I’ve been around here long enough to know that Buko is a "to-the-point" kind of guy and his response was meant completely in the spirit of helping. But for someone who doesn’t know him, it can come across as rather abrupt and could easily be interpreted as "it’s in the FAQ you idiot!"
In no way am I suggesting Buko or anyone change the way they answer questions (you ask a question here – you get the response you paid for), but contrast "it’s in the FAQ" with something like — "You might try checking the FAQ – lot’s of great information in there". A few more words, a little of more effort but it gives the impression the person is happy to help rather than being annoyed with the question. Being abrupt and "cold" is something I’m guilty of as well at times – certainly many of my posts have "sounded" much different than the actual intent – it’s part of the difficulty of communicating with the written word.
Of course, this example is very mild compared to some of the "lecturing" that goes on in here. As far as I know, there is no minimum IQ requirement to sign up. Maybe the person ISN’T the brightest bulb in the box – you might be far more intelligent but that still doesn’t give you the right to make the person feel like an idiot.
Consider this example that probably happens daily: A complete newbie asks a Photoshop question in another non-PS forum. No one knows the answer but the suggestion is made to ask here. The newbie signs up and asks his simple question that’s been asked a hundred times. They might get lucky and have someone actually answer the question, (perhaps in addition to mentioning it’s in the FAQ) — or quite likely, they get a lecture from one of the "regulars" that they first need to learn "the right way to ask a question". How ludicrous! This is a Photoshop forum FOR THE PURPOSE of asking Photoshop questions – not a forum of life lessons. Even if they get their question answered, the person isn’t likely to return due to the hostility they’ve received. (which is probably just fine with the regs – the newbs just get in the way, after all)
For those who helped create the FAQ – thank you for your time and effort! I’m sure it benefits many. However, you shouldn’t feel disrespected when people don’t read it. For whatever reason, they haven’t – end of story. Doesn’t mean they’re stupid, can’t read, or lazy, or want to waste your time with a question that’s already been addressed there – it just means they missed it. Have you ever tried to enter a commercial building through the exit door? Surely you can read the EXIT ONLY sign in front of your face – and yet you still tried to open the door. The last thing you need is someone rolling their eyes at you. In person or on the internet, rude is rude.
Someone mentioned earlier that those who infrequently participate in the forums seem to show up when this subject is brought up. Perhaps I fall into this camp but why do you think that is? For me, it’s because this can be a rather hostile environment. I’m not intimidated by it, I just choose not to participate much. Rather than spending my time here helping others, I usually end up shaking my head over many of the insulting responses.
Even before I open it, whenever I see a question with a simple subject heading that has many posts, I know it’s because the OP and the regulars have gotten into a fight. If the OP is the quiet meek type, they most likely flee and don’t respond to the bashing. But if they’re of strong will, they’ll stand up for themselves and a fight ensues. From the outside, it’s entertaining in a train wreck sort of way but it makes me stay away because it’s simply a negative atmosphere – it’s the apparent attitude of the regulars that "this is our forum – how dare you ask that question?", that’s uninviting. That perception may be completely off-base, but that’s the way it comes across to me and it’s been that way ever since I first signed up 5 or 6 years ago.
As I said, my responses don’t always come across as saint-like, but whenever I respond to a question I try to remember to ask myself: How would I answer if the person asked the very same question — in person, face to face? Not saying this is the "right way" to answer a question here but it’s a fact that people tend to act much more civilized in person than they do on an internet forum.
As for the inquiry about why I like to help others and answer questions. Well, it feels good to help someone but it’s also because by answering questions (especially ones I’m unsure of), I often learn just as much as the person who asked it. I’m absolutely positive that I’ve learned MUCH more from answering questions than asking them. That’s part of the appeal of teaching.
Perhaps it’s time to consider a Photoshop "newbie" forum? Nah – heaven help those who ask basic questions in the "advanced" forum. 😉
I also think this thread is very important and the things said here needed airing. I completely disagree with name calling, although it’s very obvious how passionate that person felt about the situation and the target of his anger. Because that target has been called far worse outside this forum for his behavior here.
I have been amazed how long Adobe has tolerated the acrimony the few "regulars" (4 in particular) regularly generate. I was the one who took Buko to task in the other thread, and yes I DO think he was rude. But that’s all said in the other thread.
There is plenty of place for personalities here. There is plenty of place for sarcasm, biting wit, articualate discussion of differences of opinion, even "name calling" when the humor is not destructive.
But the intolertance of newcomers and the volatile impatience with their requests for help and banishment to the "FAQs" by a small group of self-congratulatory people who consider this their stomping grounds and who expect others to respectfully pay some sort of dues before being allowed into their "community" has to stop.
I respect anyone who has ever posted a helpful, non aggressive message here. I think any one who asks for help whether a "regular contributor" or someone posting for the very first time deserves a considerate, respectful response by anyone who has the desire to respond.
As I said in the other thread, if you are annoyed or offended by the request, just don’t answer. Never criticize a person for asking a question. If you want to answer, be helpful and answer the question directly, or just don’t post. Answers that direct the questioner to another link are great, but give the link. Don’t taunt the person with a scold that the answer is here somewhere in the FAQs or Knowledge Base and he or she is obviously too stupid for not having already located it. Don’t preach and don’t assume the role of teacher who’s job it is to educate the person in search methods or other "study habits." It’s all just common courtesy.
I completely disagree with name calling, although it’s very obvious how passionate that person felt
That "person" was you. See your post #10.
Bert’s post #29 doesn’t count. He can’t help it; that’s how he was raised. He’s always like that to everybody in his regular habitat. That’s how his name became synonymous with the f* word there (as in "Bert you, Bert!").
And if you don’t consider this latest sanctimonious lecture of yours hypocritical, you may also be in Bert’s helpless category.
I think if you guys would drop specific references that would go a long way to having this discussion stay on a postive point. This shouldn’t be about me or you or this guy or that guy – it’ should be about a community and what kind of community we want it to be.
In a democratic environment like this there are bound to be disagreements, all I’m saying is that they could be settled more peacefully sometimes. If you want peace – be peace.
That might sound new agey (yes – I’m from Cali) but it works.
My attitude is that there are no stupid questions because I remember opening Photoshop for the first time and just sitting there thinking "How the heck do I do anything?".
I think it was v2.
Here’s my take on how I wish it was: I wish it was a fun, helpful environment where beginners could get their questions answered as well as truly high level inquiries being debated and solutions being offered. I know that’s asking a lot but it’s already there basically – perhaps a little patience would go a long way to quelling some of the flaming that goes on.
The interesting thing about the nature of creativity is the crazy mix of insecurity and ego and the dance between those that is a necessary part of the creative soul.
"…they get a lecture from one of the "regulars" that they first need to learn "the right way to ask a question".(PShock)
and…
"…Don’t preach and don’t assume the role of teacher who’s job it is to educate the person in search methods or other "study habits." (Reed Reed)
People looking for answers should be directed to learn how to ask a question if they exhibit that they really don’t know how, and the sooner the better. In the long run, and in the interest of opening the door for folks to enjoy a more fulfilling quest for answersboth in these forums and others, as well as in real lifeknowing how to ask and which questions to ask is half the battle. And despite some jangling to the contrary that has been expressed here over the past couple days, I will always contend that the best teachers are those who impart to their student the methods by which one can become increasingly self-reliant, and to progress beyond the framework which has been constructed for them. Instructing students so that they feel as though they are able to stand on the shoulders of giants < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_on_the_shoulders_of_gi ants>, is the applicable metaphor here. A person who simply and only instructs their student to regurgitate nuts & bolts information by rote memory is a somewhat of a failure, in my opinion…they might as well be training dogs to fetch the daily newspaper, for if they only process that which is fed to them, then they are not much more than a puppet.
How many times have weall of us, patient guru-saints and dismissive cocks-of-the-walk alikehad to go back and forth with visitors, both new and experienced, just to get them to reveal the information needed to even begin assessing a problem? The content of the omitted information may varyfrom withholding which version of the software the questioner is using, to how much RAM they have installed, which OS they working under, etc.but knowing these things is often vitally important in order to provide the proper answer. If the visitor is implored to visit and absorb the information in the "How To Get Help Quickly" entry, the rest of their interactions here will be that more efficient. If they learn the set of tenets laid out therein, any future inquiries they make will be much less likely to foment impatient consternation. It’s a rare dialogue indeed where the questioner has his chops busted for providing too much information about what they’re trying to do, what they’ve tried already, the specs of their system, etc.
It’s kind of clichéd to remind everyone that in the insular world of online communication people sometimes forget that the others with whom they are having a dialogue aren’t mindreaders, despite any overt or subtle assumptions made and conveyed by written tone, content or perceived intention. Anyone who has spent even a small amount of time online certainly knows that body language, facial expression and tone of voice are just not available to buttress written content. As we discuss this among ourselves, we probably all nod in assent, and take this simple fact as something that everyone knows and understands. But we must also remember as we dissect this "problem" of how questions are answered thatjust as new users can’t be expected to jump into an application like Photoshop and know the lingo and techniques straight awaythere are newcomers to the world on online communication who need some help with how to carry out the dialogue in a way that is useful to them and everyone the meet online.
Of significant importance, then, it follows that in a text-only medium it behooves all parties concerned to bring every possible aspect of writing skill to bear when communicating. Or as I like to say: "If all we have are words with which to communicate, we ought to be damned good at wrangling them."
If directing someone down a little side road so that they might gain a better handle on how to communicate effectively is seen as condescendingly lecturiffic, then I might contend that those who would complain about the practice have themselves lost touch with what it means to be a teacher in the truest and deepest sense of the word.
I understand that not everyone has a gazillion word vocabulary and a Doctorate degree in spelling-bee-ology, nor would I wish for anyone to compose their posts while continually referring to Strunk and White’s The Elements of Style. These are not the things which I aim to address nor are they the core concepts of the "How To Get Help Quickly" post (which, by the way, was derived from this page <http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html>). What that original page, and the distillation thereof that Len has posted here is an attempt to fortify and codify concepts everyone intrinsically understands to some degree or another. It’s a common sense approach that everyone will benefit from.
So, then, it shouldn’t be an issue the type of help each of us chooses to offer. The nuts & bolts share a similar gravity with the philosophies behind them, though their relevant and relative masses may change depending upon the inquiry. What really matters is the words and phrasing we choose to use when imparting the information.
I agree that if all someone has to offer is exasperated condescension and terse rudeness, they really should just stuff a sock in it. Personally speaking, I usually attempt to be niceoften I aim for conveying my mood as attitudinally neutral. But I’m a stubborn sort, and if I see a need to point someone toward the "How To Get Help Quickly" post, or to gently spank somebody for skipping over the built-to-be-noticed information in the box at the top of the page, well, by golly, I’m gonna do it.
Well that was a bit long winded for me but summed it up quite nicely.
I really doubt I’m going to change my style.
If you ask a question that is in the FAQs I will say read the FAQs I’m not going to give them a link to the FAQs they are plainly visible. If they can’t read to find the FAQs then they can’t read my answer or they are just plain lazy.
If they ask a generic question I will point them to how to ask a question correctly thread, set up by a host to help newbies ask questions correctly.
I know…I was in the mood to write a well-considered rebuttal.
There are reasons beyond mood or exasperation for why I might point people toward the FAQs, or the "HTGHQ" post. Additionally, one of the techniques I often use is to offer some information but not all, and to frame it so that the person asking the question will be motivated to take some of the missing pieces I provide and finish the puzzle themselves.
Again, when I reply in this manner, I always hope to be doing it in a way that comes across as attitudinally neutral.
Then again, there are times where I will divert myself from a simple answer in order to construct a full tutorial, complete with screenshots and minutely detailed step-by-step instructions.
I stated my bit, and I’m I’m confident that I "get" the "it" to which you’re referring.
Maybe I am a bit arrogant. Shoot, twern’t nothin’ I ain’t heard ‘afore (I have a tendency to write like that when Festus is on Gunsmoke in the background). I, too, have had many people contact me through my profile to offer profuse thanks for the help I’ve provided. But I don’t dwell on that. I reply with appreciation for the acknowledgement and move on.
But I’ll be damned if I’ll change the way I reply because you are so sure I don’t "get" it. You have no clue about what I "get" and what I don’t. Hone my reply style, maybe. Adjust it per the person asking the question, sure. But I do that anyway, without the analysis and input from the likes of you.
Despite the fact that I very clearly explained my motivations, and did it for your edification, Reed, your opinion about how I conduct myself means very little to me. I don’t know you, or your style, nor are you a "friend" (online or otherwise) upon whom I’d place my trust to hold a mirror up to me. You’re just some anonymous person who has a different opinion than I do.
Let’s leave it at that. You worry about you, I’ll worry about me. Let the gods and the mods sort it all out.
It’s monday morning here in Aus’ and I thoroughly enjoyed catching up on this thread! I knew there was real quality in this forum, you are all part of something really historic; outside of the great institutions of knowledge, I would be surprised to find an information exchange of the quality and magnitude that this forum represents. (For FREE!!!)
We have the staff of Adobe (Photoshop in particular), Apple, genuine Experts in their fields of PDF, Prepress, Printing, Design, Programming, and Art all sharing with thousands and thousands of users of all levels. Photoshop is a program of historic importance built by thousands of contributors and forum users should remember that.
Anyone participating should keep their part in proportion and everyone reading should be looking for their opportunity to add a few more bricks to this wonderful building and not knocking any out.
Thankyou to all the good people who contributed to this thread, nice to see the odd inflammatory jab was largely ignored and constructive discussion continued…bravo.
As I said before, I don’t know who you are, and I really don’t care to know who you think you are. I owe you nothing, and I have no need to justify myself to you.
There is no reason why anybody else should care either, but if anyone does, your posts speak for themselves, not just in this thread, but in all of the ones you have posted in this forum.
I’d just like to say, I am a Newbie to this forum though not to Photoshop.
When I came here a couple of weeks ago, I read the FAQ and a lot of the posts and thought to myself, wow, I’m not posting here unless I absolutely can’t find the answer elsewhere. I’ve been a teacher for 15 years and, to be frank, I thought the tone of many of the posts unnecessarily abrasive. Experience has taught me that people learn best in environments they feel comfortable in and I doubted that would be the case for me here.
As a *Newbie*, this particular discussion has made me feel more confident about posting here. I hope that other Newbies will feel the same and do so. I quote: "Adobe Online Forums are for the Adobe community’s peer-to-peer discussions of both Adobe and formerly Macromedia products". As a "peer" your rights are equal to those of every other person here, so use them and enjoy the learning!
If people want to have an argument while a meeting is in progress, they should go out to the carpark, out of consideration for the rest.
Here, here. It is long winded, 50+ post OT topics like this that cause newbies to be overwhelmed at the number of topics in this forum and choose to just toss in another question without researching. Thanks for adding more noise and encouraging further FAQs from newbies.
If you have issue with how someone responds to a question, post what you believe to be the proper answer and then move on. If you are responding to a newbie question that has already been answered in the FAQs, point the newbie there and then don’t waste any further time on them. If a newbie cannot figure out how to read the FAQ, your endless typing about how to read or the proper way to learn is not going to help them any better than the FAQ would.
The issue is not about whether you have any opinion about me at all. It doesn’t matter that you attack me. But this is what always happens. As soon as anyone says anything that contradicts or offends you (and so much does) you attack that person, and having attacked, you turn the entire issue into that anger, and you just don’t stop.
This is a dishonest trick to which you you always resort.
The issue is your rude treatment of people here.
It is not surprising that you and Buko and Phos have rallied your wagons. You simply can’t ignore the honest posts now finally coming from others who have been intimidated or offended by the kind of atmosphere you have frequently generated here. So you attack the messenger and boast that you have no intention of changing. It doesn’t matter. Lots of people know know the facts and I think it’s healthy their willing to talk about it.
It’s a tangential (and quite frankly, ineffectual) tactic for you to lump any of us into a group. Nor is it valid for you to broadbrush all the replies by any one individual by referencing only the posts you object to.
My posting style is different from Ramon’s which is different from Buko’s, which is different from Ann’s which is different anyone else you object to, ad nauseum..
It seems to me that in your mind we reply in lockstep, and that clearly isn’t the case. Nor is it true that any of us aren’t quite regularly friendly, and helpful with providing comprehensive and patient answers.
I already have a problem with the methodology you use in debate. Any other attempts to convince me (and yourself, and others) that I’m wrong for what I do and how I do it is futile. I know my stubborness and experience tells me that I can dig my heels in for far longer than you’d have the will to push.
Again, dude…just worry about yourself. No amount of your haranguing will change anyone’s personality here. Accept it and move on.
How are educators meant to recommend this forum to their students or trainees as a resource for learning given this level of remark and reference? It’s time to grow up and give it a break, please.
It’s really simple: if you don’t like the way someone posts then post in an alternative manner that you think is better.
What you characterize as turning things around is nothing more (nor less) than my ability to tell things like they are.
You have added a humorous touch to your sanctimonious preaching in suggesting that Phosphor and I are in collusion or defending each other. You’re totally clueless in this regard. Thank you for the good laugh; even my next door neighbor’s dog heard me, and I’m 30 feet away from my property line. 😀
I’m sure Phosphor and Buko also laughed over that one.
Anyone who reads your posts, particularly #10 as I pointed out to you, can tell who started the personal attacks and distortion of the facts here.
I have never insulted anybody here who didn’t insult and attack me here first, and you have absolutely no moral authority to call my treatment of others here outside the context of someone insulting me first "rude".
Again, I have absolutely no need to justify myself to you, of all people.
You have had a bad attitude here ever since you arrived here, and I was NOT the first one to call you on it.
Some people come to this forum for the first time itching for a fight, and inevitably they eventually find it. Some of them are under the wrong impression that they are addressing Adobe here, so they come here to rant.
Others come here with a background of being moderators (notice correct spelling here) elsewhere, or hall monitors and teachers teaching youngsters. We even have bona fide preachers, writing sermons to their correspondents.
The moderators here are called "Forum Hosts", and they have had no compunction in exercising their prerogatives regarding my posts in different ways and degrees of severity, and I have never complained about being banned or censored. That’s what they’re here for.
You’re obviously itching for a fight yourself. As a septuagenarian, I’m beyond your puerile games.
How are educators meant to recommend this forum to their students or trainees as a resource for learning ?
With all due respect to educators and I’ve been married to one for half a century now in these User to User forums we are all just users trying to help each other out. We offer solutions and workarounds to problems we encounter, and I believe this goal is achieved very effectively. Otherwise most of us would not be here.
I certainly have no delusions of being an educator. Many decades ago I tried it for one semester at a European university, and I thoroughly hated it. I’m fully aware that I have zero aptitude as a pedagogue.
For many years I lived in countries where the Catholic Church forbade even the reading of the bible to their flock because they wanted to keep the faithful "away from the perversion therein". Their "educators" were fine with that dictum.
Whether you want your students to come here when they run into a problem or not is entirely your call.
The real world is very different from the halls of academia.
Personally, I have received enough expressions of gratitude, both publicly here and off line, that I feel amply rewarded.
Anytime the forum hosts decide to cut me off, I’m OK with that too.
Ramon, I have a lot of respect for your contributions here, but I dont think you take into account that there are hundreds of people reading a thread based on the title, who are not interested in whether ReedReed called you a name or pulled your hair. If you have an issue with him (her? I don’t know) that is not something that should dilute the information in use by others.
"You’re a bully and coward because you dish out your vitriol on a technology that prevents your victims from reaching you."
No, Ramon that is NOT name calling, THAT is a description of your behavior. There is quite a difference. But you only support the moniker by after the fact whining that someone is, in fact, hurting you. Would you like a little cheese?
Quite different from the frequent Ramonism, "You’re an idiot," in response to someone who has disagreed with you.
There are people on about 5 forums right now laughing out loud that Castaneda is whining about being called names.
