Proof Setup: Monitor RGB On or Off

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Wed, 05 October 2005 11:40 Go to next message
Alan Smithee (Advanced Photoshop user)
When I go into Proof Setup and select Monitor RGB my images "cool down". I
have to bump up the Red and Blue (in Photoshop) a bit to make them look like
they look when Proof Setup is turned off. I've read previous posts that
suggest that this drastic shift is the result of a bad monitor ICC profile.
I'm having trouble believing this now that I have used two different color
management systems to calibrate my monitor's RGB AND BOTH cause this
phenomena to appear on my system. I'm using a ViewSonic Pro Series monitor
(Aperture Grill). I've used both an Optical Spyder and Gretag's Eye systems
to build a profile. They come within about one or two percent of each other
after calibration, not enough to show the amount of shifting I'm seeing
which is about 12-15 per cent in the Red channel and somewhat less in the
blue. It seems my workflow on the color side demands I leave proof setup set
to Monitor RGB. Any ideas as to what's happening here? I'm still baffled. My
understanding is that with Proof turned off I'm suppose to be seeing the
profile corrected image. Why would photoshop need to show me a "corrected"
image if I've already set the monitor's RGB channels by hand with the aid of
the colorometer? Thx.
Wed, 05 October 2005 13:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Timo Autiokari (Photoshop expert)
"Alan Smithee" <AlanSmithee@nowhere.com> wrote:

>When I go into Proof Setup and select Monitor RGB my images "cool down".

Are you sure that you use "Monitor RGB" and not "Windows RGB"? (Both
the "Windows RGB" and "Macintosh RGB" options are faulty).

Assuming that the color management is OK, then when you proof to
"Monitor RGB" what you get to see is how the RGB data of your image
would appear on your monitor when that data is not altered (like if
you'd save as BMP and then use a non-color-managed SW to view it). And
therefore, this "test" only tells you that your working-space ICC
profile does not match with the color-space of your color managed
system monitor. Again, that was assuming that the color management is
correctly set up.

>have to bump up the Red and Blue (in Photoshop) a bit to make them look like
>they look when Proof Setup is turned off.

So, possibly your RGB working-space profile is AdobeRGB?

>I'm having trouble believing this now that I have used two different color
>management systems to calibrate my monitor's RGB AND BOTH cause this
>phenomena to appear on my system.

Even so, that could well be the case.

>I'm using a ViewSonic Pro Series monitor (Aperture Grill). I've used both
>an Optical Spyder and Gretag's Eye systems to build a profile.

You'd be _much_ better of with AdobeGamma. What kind of system gamma
do you get here:
http://www.aim-dtp.net/aim/evaluation/gamma_space/index.htm (evaluate
using the Web browser, with the normal color-management enabled).

>It seems my workflow on the color side demands I leave proof setup set
>to Monitor RGB.

No, there is some problem. In general, with photographs, there is no
need to proof at all when the images go to Web (or for CRT viewing).

>My understanding is that with Proof turned off I'm suppose to be
>seeing the profile corrected image.

Yes, that is so, you are seeing the colors from your RGB working-space
correctly on your monitor.

Timo Autiokari
Wed, 05 October 2005 16:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Alan Smithee (Advanced Photoshop user)
Timo Autiokari wrote:
> "Alan Smithee" <AlanSmithee@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>> When I go into Proof Setup and select Monitor RGB my images "cool
>> down".
>
> Are you sure that you use "Monitor RGB" and not "Windows RGB"? (Both
> the "Windows RGB" and "Macintosh RGB" options are faulty).

Yes I'm going into Monitor RGB. If I select Windows RGB I would say the
image looks desaturated, maybe flatter tonely.
>
> Assuming that the color management is OK, then when you proof to
> "Monitor RGB" what you get to see is how the RGB data of your image
> would appear on your monitor when that data is not altered (like if
> you'd save as BMP and then use a non-color-managed SW to view it).
Exactly. Same photo in other applications looks exactly like the Monitor RGB
proofing option.

> And
> therefore, this "test" only tells you that your working-space ICC
> profile does not match with the color-space of your color managed
> system monitor. Again, that was assuming that the color management is
> correctly set up.
My working space is Adobe RGB 1998. Does that mean I'm seeing the larger
gamut in my normal non-proofed viewing?
>
>> have to bump up the Red and Blue (in Photoshop) a bit to make them
>> look like they look when Proof Setup is turned off.
>
> So, possibly your RGB working-space profile is AdobeRGB?
Yes AdobeRBG.
>
>> I'm having trouble believing this now that I have used two different
>> color management systems to calibrate my monitor's RGB AND BOTH
>> cause this phenomena to appear on my system.
>
> Even so, that could well be the case.
Could be, maybe. Hmm. I sure hope not though.
>
>> I'm using a ViewSonic Pro Series monitor (Aperture Grill). I've used
>> both an Optical Spyder and Gretag's Eye systems to build a profile.
>
> You'd be _much_ better of with AdobeGamma. What kind of system gamma
> do you get here:
> http://www.aim-dtp.net/aim/evaluation/gamma_space/index.htm (evaluate
> using the Web browser, with the normal color-management enabled).

I have to run back to my other computer to answer this question....does
Adobe Gamma generate a profile similar to the calibration systems?
>
>> It seems my workflow on the color side demands I leave proof setup
>> set
>> to Monitor RGB.
>
> No, there is some problem. In general, with photographs, there is no
> need to proof at all when the images go to Web (or for CRT viewing).

Agreed, but when going to everywhere else...
>
>> My understanding is that with Proof turned off I'm suppose to be
>> seeing the profile corrected image.
>
> Yes, that is so, you are seeing the colors from your RGB working-space
> correctly on your monitor.

OK but what good are these colors (AdobeRGB1998) to me if they don't match:
the web, my printer. It seems they're only good for viewing images on "my"
monitor and nobody elses.

Thank you very much for helping me to try and understand this Timo.
Wed, 05 October 2005 17:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Alan Smithee (Advanced Photoshop user)
> You'd be _much_ better of with AdobeGamma. What kind of system gamma
> do you get here:
> http://www.aim-dtp.net/aim/evaluation/gamma_space/index.htm (evaluate
> using the Web browser, with the normal color-management enabled).

Pretty close to what I've targetted to: 2.2
Thu, 06 October 2005 03:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Waldo (Photoshop expert)
> I have to run back to my other computer to answer this question....does
> Adobe Gamma generate a profile similar to the calibration systems?

No, because it cannot measure. Adobe Gamma is a tool that helps you
getting a neutral gray and a maximum contrast. Profiling is required
afterwards.

Waldo
Thu, 06 October 2005 04:26 Go to previous message
Timo Autiokari (Photoshop expert)
Hi Alan,

Your system sounds to be in good order, this is what happens when
AdobeRGB image data is shown in a non-color-managed system or
non-color-managed software such as the Web browsers are.

It is the workflow that you need to alter and also the system setup.

For the workflow, there are several options, but mainly:

1) Disable the Photoshop color-management completely. I never recommend
this, but it is one of the options.

2) Keep working in the AdobeRGB (or in an other much better RGB
color-space) and publish the images to Web. Publishing to Web means:

a) create a copy of your original
b) convert the copy to nativePC RGB profile, you can find it here:
http://www.aim-dtp.net/aim/download/aim_profiles.zip
c) drop the copy down to 8-bit/c
d) save as JPG

For the system, if you calibrate it to gamma 2.2 then all those people
on the Web who do not calibrate their systems and are using a computer
with Windows operating system will see your images darker than how you
see them on your gamma 2.2 system. So in all cases it is best to
calibrate to gamma 2.5, that is the native gamma of CRT monitors that
are connected to a computer that run Windows operating system.

Alan Smithee wrote:
> My working space is Adobe RGB 1998. Does that mean I'm seeing the larger
> gamut in my normal non-proofed viewing?

No. You can only see the gamut that the display is capable to produce,
even if you RGB data does cover a larger gamut. The display systems
have about the gamut (phosphors set) that has the name Trinitron (this
has nothing to do with the mask technology that has the same name).

> does Adobe Gamma generate a profile similar to the calibration systems?

Generally no. Adobe gamma produce a very good profiles for CRT monitors
AND it also calibrates your system gamma.

> what good are these colors (AdobeRGB1998) to me if they don't match:
> the web, my printer.

The benefit of a large gamut workging-spaces is that they store a wider
range of color saturation. This is useful e.g. when printing to a wide
gamut printer (those that expose photograhic paper). Also you can
adjust the highly saturated colors in your large gamut working-space so
that they will tranfer nicely into the small publishing space (like Web
and inkjets).

Timo Autiokari
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