Color profile seems good, but this file acts strange

"Huss" wrote in message

Maybe someone here can explain this for me: Following my photo lab’s advice I set up my monitor with their color profile. All of my prints through them look exactly as expected, except for one. They gave me a print and the file from which it was made to check skin tone and contrast level (I can email the 405KB file to anyone on request). The skin tones match perfectly…the contrast levels seem to match perfectly, but the red border (something they told me not to pay much attention to) does not match at all. On their print it is burgundy, while on my monitor it is a very bright red. Like I said, all of my prints look EXACTLY as expected, so this isn’t really a problem, just something I would like to understand. Any thoughts?

This is difficult to answer without having all the details, but if your prints match what you see on the screen, then I wouldn’t sweat it. Chances are the color is out of gamut for their device (printer), so that is ONE reason why it might not match. There are others, to be sure, but as long as you are happy with the overall match, I’d leave it alone.

However, they *should* be able to explain the discrepancy. Ask ’em.

Flycaster wrote:

This is difficult to answer without having all the details, but if your prints match what you see on the screen, then I wouldn’t sweat it. Chances are the color is out of gamut for their device (printer), so that is ONE reason why it might not match. There are others, to be sure, but as long as you are happy with the overall match, I’d leave it alone.
However, they *should* be able to explain the discrepancy. Ask ’em.

Well, the person that knows the most about it is on vacation, but one of them let me see the file on their monitor and it matched the print perfectly so I’m guessing the problem is on my end. Again, I’m not overly woried about it…just curious. The girl that I talked to couldn’t explain why the file behaved the way it does, but the manager should be back next week.

The printer they use is a Noritsu QSS-3011. They make Type C prints on Fuji Crystal Archive paper.

in article , Huss at
wrote on 4/9/04 3:44 PM:

Maybe someone here can explain this for me: Following my photo lab’s advice I set up my monitor with their color profile. All of my prints through them look exactly as expected, except for one. They gave me a print and the file from which it was made to check skin tone and contrast level (I can email the 405KB file to anyone on request). The skin tones match perfectly…the contrast levels seem to match perfectly, but the red border (something they told me not to pay much attention to) does not match at all. On their print it is burgundy, while on my monitor it is a very bright red. Like I said, all of my prints look EXACTLY as expected, so this isn’t really a problem, just something I would like to understand. Any thoughts?

Huss

—
They couldn’t have a monitor profile for you to use.
They would have an output profile.

MSD

WharfRat wrote:

in article , Huss at
wrote on 4/9/04 3:44 PM:

Maybe someone here can explain this for me: Following my photo lab’s advice I set up my monitor with their color profile. All of my prints through them look exactly as expected, except for one. They gave me a print and the file from which it was made to check skin tone and contrast level (I can email the 405KB file to anyone on request). The skin tones match perfectly…the contrast levels seem to match perfectly, but the red border (something they told me not to pay much attention to) does not match at all. On their print it is burgundy, while on my monitor it is a very bright red. Like I said, all of my prints look EXACTLY as expected, so this isn’t really a problem, just something I would like to understand. Any thoughts?

Huss

—
They couldn’t have a monitor profile for you to use.
They would have an output profile.

MSD

I’m sorry, I think I may have worded that incorrectly. I’m a little new to this so please forgive me. They told me to try using an sRGB color space and use the file and print they gave me to adjust my monitor for the skin tones and contrast level. The other colors on the test print do not match very well.

Huss

Huss wrote:

Maybe someone here can explain this for me: Following my photo lab’s advice I set up my monitor with their color profile. All of my prints through them look exactly as expected, except for one. They gave me a print and the file from which it was made to check skin tone and contrast level (I can email the 405KB file to anyone on request). The skin tones match perfectly…the contrast levels seem to match perfectly, but the red border (something they told me not to pay much attention to) does not match at all. On their print it is burgundy, while on my monitor it is a very bright red. Like I said, all of my prints look EXACTLY as expected, so this isn’t really a problem, just something I would like to understand. Any thoughts?

Huss

—
They couldn’t have a monitor profile for you to use.
They would have an output profile.

I’m sorry, I think I may have worded that incorrectly. I’m a little new to this so please forgive me. They told me to try using an sRGB color space and use the file and print they gave me to adjust my monitor for the skin tones and contrast level. The other colors on the test print do not match very well.

The problem is that you cannot ‘calibrate’ a monitor using a print, despite of what your lab is suggesting. Monitors can show colors that a print cannot show and vice versa. You should calibrate your monitor in the usual way. If you do not have true calibration software/hardware, then use Adobe Gamma.

—
Johan W. Elzenga johan<<at>>johanfoto.nl Editor / Photographer http://www.johanfoto.nl/

Johan W. Elzenga wrote:

Huss wrote:

Maybe someone here can explain this for me: Following my photo lab’s advice I set up my monitor with their color profile. All of my prints through them look exactly as expected, except for one. They gave me a print and the file from which it was made to check skin tone and contrast level (I can email the 405KB file to anyone on request). The skin tones match perfectly…the contrast levels seem to match perfectly, but the red border (something they told me not to pay much attention to) does not match at all. On their print it is burgundy, while on my monitor it is a very bright red. Like I said, all of my prints look EXACTLY as expected, so this isn’t really a problem, just something I would like to understand. Any thoughts?

Huss

—
They couldn’t have a monitor profile for you to use.
They would have an output profile.

I’m sorry, I think I may have worded that incorrectly. I’m a little new to this so please forgive me. They told me to try using an sRGB color space and use the file and print they gave me to adjust my monitor for the skin tones and contrast level. The other colors on the test print do not match very well.

The problem is that you cannot ‘calibrate’ a monitor using a print, despite of what your lab is suggesting. Monitors can show colors that a print cannot show and vice versa. You should calibrate your monitor in the usual way. If you do not have true calibration software/hardware, then use Adobe Gamma.

OK, I guess I understand this topic a whole lot less than I thought. What is the point of using a particular color profile (in this case sRGB IEC61966-2.1) if it doesn’t make the colors on screen appear accurately when compared to another monitor? I’m not saying they have to be exact for my purposes, but this is a major difference in color that I’m experiencing.

Huss

Huss wrote:

The problem is that you cannot ‘calibrate’ a monitor using a print, despite of what your lab is suggesting. Monitors can show colors that a print cannot show and vice versa. You should calibrate your monitor in the usual way. If you do not have true calibration software/hardware, then use Adobe Gamma.

OK, I guess I understand this topic a whole lot less than I thought. What is the point of using a particular color profile (in this case sRGB IEC61966-2.1) if it doesn’t make the colors on screen appear accurately when compared to another monitor? I’m not saying they have to be exact for my purposes, but this is a major difference in color that I’m experiencing.

The image should be tagged with sRGB IEC61966-2.1, because that is the best color space for your lab. In other words: if the image is sRGB, you will get the best result from the lab (meaning a result that is as close as possible to what you see on your own screen).

sRGB is not your monitor profile, however. You should calibrate your monitor (using AdobeGamma or something better) and use that profile for your monitor. Your computer will then make sure that the sRGB colors of your image will be shown as accurately as possible on your monitor.

—
Johan W. Elzenga johan<<at>>johanfoto.nl Editor / Photographer http://www.johanfoto.nl/

Johan W. Elzenga wrote:

Huss wrote:

The problem is that you cannot ‘calibrate’ a monitor using a print, despite of what your lab is suggesting. Monitors can show colors that a print cannot show and vice versa. You should calibrate your monitor in the usual way. If you do not have true calibration software/hardware, then use Adobe Gamma.

OK, I guess I understand this topic a whole lot less than I thought. What is the point of using a particular color profile (in this case sRGB IEC61966-2.1) if it doesn’t make the colors on screen appear accurately when compared to another monitor? I’m not saying they have to be exact for my purposes, but this is a major difference in color that I’m experiencing.

The image should be tagged with sRGB IEC61966-2.1, because that is the best color space for your lab. In other words: if the image is sRGB, you will get the best result from the lab (meaning a result that is as close as possible to what you see on your own screen).

sRGB is not your monitor profile, however. You should calibrate your monitor (using AdobeGamma or something better) and use that profile for your monitor. Your computer will then make sure that the sRGB colors of your image will be shown as accurately as possible on your monitor.

Thanks for taking the time to reply to me John, I really do appreciate your help in understanding this topic. I’m sorry if I’m slow at understanding these things, but I really want to understand them well. I’ve tried the PS help file, but I must be missing something.

Yes, I’ve made a monitor profile and realize that it is unique to my hardware. Yes, the image is tagged with a profile that I use when I open the image. I guess I just don’t understand how two monitors that are calibrated (I realize that mine is probably not as acurate as it could be..the lab’s uses a built in colorimiter to profile their monitor at least once a month) would give such different results. They should at least be close. The difference is significant…fire engine red on my monitor as opposed to deep burgundy on the lab’s monitor and print. Perhaps it is a problem with just the one color since it seems to be the only one off? The skin tone and the contrast level on the print/file/monitor(s) is very accurate. Anyway, it really isn’t a problem at this point, just something that I would like to understand. I’ll keep researching. Maybe I can find a good book that would help.

L. Huss

Try this site:

http://www.computer-darkroom.com/

Select the ‘Enter’ link, then click the ‘Feature Articless’ drop-down. Some good information there. Also, check out the rest of the site. I’ve learned so much there.

Here’s another one to try. Although it’s written by a competitor to Adobe Photoshop, it’s nonetheless one of the best white papers I’ve seen on the subject of color management.

Scroll down the page and select the ‘Color Management.pdf’ file.

http://www.dl-c.com/Temp/downloads/tutorials_content.html

If you search Google Groups for ‘Color Management’ and ‘Colour Management’, you will find an amazing amount of information. It’s not uncommon to get more confused before you start to see it more clearly. I’m just starting to emerge from the totally confused state, and I’ve been reading stuff for months. Hope this helps.

Mike

Huss wrote:

Maybe I can find a good book that would help.

L. Huss

By telling Photoshop that the lab uses sRGB, you enable it to render the image properly on your monitor, which, in turn, has it’s own profile.

The sRGB-profiled image is converted into monitor profile in order to be dispayed. It’s much like translating between languages: photo lab speaks sRGB, and monitor speaks "MonitorProfile"; Photoshop translates sRGB into "MonitorProfile".

Also, every monitor’s profile is valid for that particular device (and maybe a few others), and your aim in this case is not to match your output to other monitors but to a specified lab’s printer (which is supposedly callibrated to "speak" the sRGB "language").

"Huss" wrote in message

Johan W. Elzenga wrote:

Huss wrote:

Maybe someone here can explain this for me: Following my photo lab’s advice I set up my monitor with their color profile. All of my prints through them look exactly as expected, except for one. They gave me a print and the file from which it was made to check skin tone and contrast level (I can email the 405KB file to anyone on request). The skin tones match perfectly…the contrast levels seem to match perfectly, but the red border (something they told me not to pay much attention to) does not match at all. On their print it is burgundy, while on my monitor it is a very bright red. Like I said, all of my prints look EXACTLY as expected, so this isn’t really a problem, just something I would like to understand. Any thoughts?

Huss

—
They couldn’t have a monitor profile for you to use.
They would have an output profile.

I’m sorry, I think I may have worded that incorrectly. I’m a little new to this so please forgive me. They told me to try using an sRGB color space and use the file and print they gave me to adjust my monitor for the skin tones and contrast level. The other colors on the test print do not match very well.

The problem is that you cannot ‘calibrate’ a monitor using a print, despite of what your lab is suggesting. Monitors can show colors that a print cannot show and vice versa. You should calibrate your monitor in the usual way. If you do not have true calibration software/hardware, then use Adobe Gamma.

OK, I guess I understand this topic a whole lot less than I thought. What is the point of using a particular color profile (in this case sRGB IEC61966-2.1) if it doesn’t make the colors on screen appear accurately when compared to another monitor? I’m not saying they have to be exact for my purposes, but this is a major difference in color that I’m experiencing.

Huss

"Johan W. Elzenga" wrote in message

The problem is that you cannot ‘calibrate’ a monitor using a print, despite of what your lab is suggesting. Monitors can show colors that a print cannot show and vice versa. You should calibrate your monitor in the usual way. If you do not have true calibration software/hardware, then use Adobe Gamma.

Oh boy. While I agree with you 100%, this suggestion usually gets the riff-raff rolling. Pretty soon we’ll end up with someone suggesting that the "solution" is to turn off color management, and simply "profile" the monitor to a test print. It never fails…

in article , Huss at
wrote on 4/9/04 5:30 PM:

WharfRat wrote:

in article , Huss at
wrote on 4/9/04 3:44 PM:

Maybe someone here can explain this for me: Following my photo lab’s advice I set up my monitor with their color profile. All of my prints through them look exactly as expected, except for one. They gave me a print and the file from which it was made to check skin tone and contrast level (I can email the 405KB file to anyone on request). The skin tones match perfectly…the contrast levels seem to match perfectly, but the red border (something they told me not to pay much attention to) does not match at all. On their print it is burgundy, while on my monitor it is a very bright red. Like I said, all of my prints look EXACTLY as expected, so this isn’t really a problem, just something I would like to understand. Any thoughts?

Huss

—
They couldn’t have a monitor profile for you to use.
They would have an output profile.

MSD

I’m sorry, I think I may have worded that incorrectly. I’m a little new to this so please forgive me. They told me to try using an sRGB color space and use the file and print they gave me to adjust my monitor for the skin tones and contrast level. The other colors on the test print do not match very well.

—
You kind of said it correctly.
It is just that,
you do not set up your monitor to match some output.
You profile calibrate and profile your monitor to work properly. then you capture files and get them into a good working space. Then you convery your files to the profile you aill be outputting to. –
Imagine if you set up your entire system to put out perfect results for that one printing device.
Then – you would be no idea how to prepare the file to print to any other output device.

There are some pretty good canned profiles for those printers. Many are available, on line, for specific locations as well. They seem to be well documented and tracked machines.

MSD

WharfRat wrote:

in article , Huss at
wrote on 4/9/04 5:30 PM:

WharfRat wrote:

in article , Huss at
wrote on 4/9/04 3:44 PM:

Maybe someone here can explain this for me: Following my photo lab’s advice I set up my monitor with their color profile. All of my prints through them look exactly as expected, except for one. They gave me a print and the file from which it was made to check skin tone and contrast level (I can email the 405KB file to anyone on request). The skin tones match perfectly…the contrast levels seem to match perfectly, but the red border (something they told me not to pay much attention to) does not match at all. On their print it is burgundy, while on my monitor it is a very bright red. Like I said, all of my prints look EXACTLY as expected, so this isn’t really a problem, just something I would like to understand. Any thoughts?

Huss

—
They couldn’t have a monitor profile for you to use.
They would have an output profile.

MSD

I’m sorry, I think I may have worded that incorrectly. I’m a little new to this so please forgive me. They told me to try using an sRGB color space and use the file and print they gave me to adjust my monitor for the skin tones and contrast level. The other colors on the test print do not match very well.

—
You kind of said it correctly.
It is just that,
you do not set up your monitor to match some output.
You profile calibrate and profile your monitor to work properly. then you capture files and get them into a good working space. Then you convery your files to the profile you aill be outputting to. –
Imagine if you set up your entire system to put out perfect results for that one printing device.
Then – you would be no idea how to prepare the file to print to any other output device.

There are some pretty good canned profiles for those printers. Many are available, on line, for specific locations as well. They seem to be well documented and tracked machines.

MSD

Really? Do you have any idea where I could find a profile for a Noritsu QSS-3011? I couldn’t find anything on the Noritsu website.

in article , Huss at
wrote on 4/11/04 12:49 AM:

Noritsu
QSS-3011

—
I would probably contact these guys first:

http://www.drycreekphoto.com/

MSD

Are we to understand that the red is bright red even when soft proofing? Make sure that you check the gamut warning as well. It could just be beyond the printers gamut range.

To set up "soft proof" for your prints, (in photoshop) click on "view"->"Proof Steup"->"Custom".

In the "Profile" drop down box, find the appropriate output (printer/paper) profile. DONT check the "preserve color numbers box, leave the Intent box on perceptual, and I like to check the "paper white" box. (which may not always be a good idea, unless you know your monitor is calibrated right and the rooms abient lighting is well controled.) Click save, and your done. Now to switch soft proofing on and off, hold CNTRL and press Y. All that needs to be done now to tell if that red is out of gamut, is make sure that soft proofing is on, then click "View"->"Gamut Warning". If the red turns grey (the default clolor) then it’s out of gamut, and you may want to shift the color a little, or desaturate it a little.

On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 17:44:05 -0500, Huss
wrote:

Maybe someone here can explain this for me: Following my photo lab’s advice I set up my monitor with their color profile. All of my prints through them look exactly as expected, except for one. They gave me a print and the file from which it was made to check skin tone and contrast level (I can email the 405KB file to anyone on request). The skin tones match perfectly…the contrast levels seem to match perfectly, but the red border (something they told me not to pay much attention to) does not match at all. On their print it is burgundy, while on my monitor it is a very bright red. Like I said, all of my prints look EXACTLY as expected, so this isn’t really a problem, just something I would like to understand. Any thoughts?

Huss